Moral issue (sort of legal too)

[labrocca]

Hypothetically look at this situation.

There is a site been around 4-5 years. It's about to expire. You were a member at this site when it was active but the owner vanished years ago and the site is mostly spammed phpbb forums now with no active members..NONE. Well the site is going to expire in 3 days...it runs an old phpbb version you know is hackable. How wrong would it be to backorder the name and just in case you get it...hack the forums to save the database and prevent it from being lost?

I ask this because I was in a situation like this just this week. I was so tempted to hack the site to save it. However on last day the domain was renewed. I assume auto-renew is on. But let's say it did expire and I did hack the phpbb and saved a copy of the database.

I guess my question is not is this wrong but HOW wrong is it and how many of you would consider doing it.



And really think about it...don't take the high road just to look good.

As for the legal question...if you rebuild the site with new graphics but you reinstalled the forums...are the forums copyrightable as far as users posts and membership? Wouldn't copyright be owned by the posters and not the site owner?

 

[dotrig.com]

Hard to answer

see if you can contact the current owner ask them to see it.

If they are not using the site for a wile, they may sell it cheap.

.

 

[dhscott]

They obviously do not want it if they have not updated it etc.

I wouldn't recommend hacking the site to get the DB though

 

[Halobitt]

Is it really hacking if it's for the public good? :P

 

[ablaye]

Hacking is wrong period. If you need a copy of the database, contact the owner and ask him to sell you his database.

 

[armstrong]

As for the legal question...if you rebuild the site with new graphics but you reinstalled the forums...are the forums copyrightable as far as users posts and membership? Wouldn't copyright be owned by the posters and not the site owner?

The actual database can be regarded as property. If you somehow hack the db and use its data in your forum, then that constitutes two criminal acts: "breaking and entering" (at least in the context of internet hosting), plus theft. If the original db owner ever finds out and decides to pursue, then your new forum would be all the evidence that's needed.

 

[Dave_Z]

I have a question, Labrocca: why? I guess the forum means so much to you
you believe you can continue on where the owner left off, so to speak?

Hacking is wrong period

So "legitimate hackers" like Kevin Mitnick are wrong? That looked like pretty
much an absolute statement.

 

[labrocca]

I have spoken with the owner in the past. I so-so know him. He is a teenager (maybe 20 now) and I think has abandoned the site completely. Also...he has added whois guard to the site. Heck for all I know he may have sold it off and the new owner is a loser. That happens a lot too. There is a form on the site for contact and advertising..I have tried to use those repeatedly but with no reply. This site was doing well at one point and was a top 50k alexa site with about 3-5k uniques per day and good serp rankings. Now it's an empty shell.

While I know the legalities of hacking the forums..I wouldn't be too concerned about it. If I did do it..and he contacted me..I would gladly hand over the domain back to him free of charge. I would morally consider it a lost and found item until he asked for it back. Like I said..he was about to lose the site and I really just wanted to save it. I would have revived it.

I mostly posted this because I thought it would make an interesting topic. I also wonder has anyone ever gotten a drop domain then hit archive.org to recover pages?

 

[dhscott]

I have a question, Labrocca: why? I guess the forum means so much to you
you believe you can continue on where the owner left off, so to speak?



So "legitimate hackers" like Kevin Mitnick are wrong? That looked like pretty
much an absolute statement.

I was going to write a longer post but I felt it wasn't required, it might be required now. Most people think hacking means doing bad things, the term that's supposed to be used is cracking, a hacker is someone that modify's software to suit their needs in terms of e.g. Forum Templates, Forum Modifications etc.

 

[labrocca]

http://www.answers.com/hacker&r=67

hacker has multiple definitions...good and bad

1. One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff.
2. One who uses programming skills to gain illegal access to a computer network or file.
3. One who enthusiastically pursues a game or sport: a weekend tennis hacker.

I was using definition 2.

 

[labrocca]

I see where your comming from. I do understand your points and I think you have good ideas about bringing a dead forum back to life. I don't think the courts would agree with you though.

:imho:

For the sake of argument..do you mean a civil court or criminal court?

If this is civil he has to prove damages which imho don't exist.

If you are talking criminal...possibly a problem.

 

[armstrong]

If this is civil he has to prove damages which imho don't exist.

Your honor, my forum caused me lots of sleepless nights and worry, so I finally decided to just let it die. Now that labrocca has resurrected it, the nightmares have started again. Please, sir, I need $1,000,000 to get proper therapy in Rio.

 

[Lasher]

If I break into my neighbour's house because he has a computer I've always wanted that he never uses and doesn't even keep updated, and I also know he sometimes leaves a sliding glass door open behind the house, have I committed a crime?

After all, he's not using it anyway, it is wasted on him, and if he really wanted to keep his stuff he'd practice better home security.

 

[labrocca]

What about if your neighbor left his door wide open and was gone for 2 months. You may have gone in to make sure he was OK. You are a friend of the neighbor. When you go inside you realize he has some valuables laying around. You throw them in a box for safe keeping and keep them at your house until he returns.

As I said...criminally the act of getting his forums is a problem but there are no civil monetary damages here.

Oh well..this thread was all hypothetical anyways and it's interesting to hear everyones view.

 

[jeter4982]

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think I can justify it morally or ethically. Yes, you may not be causing any real damage to anyone, but it is still theft no matter how you look at it. If I were in a similar situation I would definitely go after the domain if you want to continue the site, but I would probably just start the forums up again, and try to promote them back to the point where they were. An interesting discussion indeed, though.

Tom

 

[labrocca]

Alright...let's throw this into the mix...what if I only created static pages from the site by crawling it? So that once the site was captured from the drop I could upload the old pages and possibly redirect any links to a new forums on the site. The sad part is the loss of the member database. You will have to ask them to signup again. You also won't have their emails in order to let them know the site is back up.

 

[dhscott]

That's still theft if you are taking their content though

It's like plagiarism...

 

[Morph]

If your intention was, to keep it safe for the owner. I personaly think your heart is in the right place.

However, to save this you have to force an entry, which could piss off the owner. Morally, you are taking something that is not yours.

Summing it up, unless i knew the person well, i would leave it to it's own devices but, if i spoke to the guy on and off which it sounds like you did, and i had half an idea how to do this act, i might consider it. But then again...i would feel wrong until i have it back to him.

It's like ...hmm, this is puzzling. I think it's a situational thing, i would need to be in that situation.
Lets put it like this:
RJ runs away to the hills, Mark, the Virgo, takes over the world. The other mods disappear.
Members stop coming to NP
The people who spam the place with NOKIAS FOR ONLY 50$ rule the place.
And i could do something about it. Yes, i would.

I think the amount of good it would bring overwrites the initial wrong action.

yer, errm time for bed.

 

[labrocca]

It's like ...hmm, this is puzzling. I think it's a situational thing, i would need to be in that situation.
Lets put it like this:
RJ runs away to the hills, Mark, the Virgo, takes over the world. The other mods disappear.
Members stop coming to NP
The people who spam the place with NOKIAS FOR ONLY 50$ rule the place.
And i could do something about it. Yes, i would.

I think the amount of good it would bring overwrites the initial wrong action.

That's pretty close to the situation. Those at the forums know who I am. Most even left to start another forums since this place was dead and it's very much ruled by spam now.

 

[DuckFOO]

I feel for you Labrocca, it can be a real shame when a board goes bad. You might be better just to start off all over and try and let as many old users know as possible.