discuss Intimidation Tactics: Share the most absurd attempts at intimidation!

[DanSanchez]

Intimidation, legal or not, happens daily in the domain industry. I am an avid defender of private property and individual responsibility, personally, this is one of the most disgusting acts an individual can undertake to try to appropriate a domain name.

Now that I work at Epik, I am often tasked with answering emails from foolish individuals who purposely or not, try to misconstrue UDRP/Trademark rights try to intimidate the registrar into handing over a certain domain. This means they have already tried to contact the owner of the domain and they have failed, but it's not always the case.

In this particular instance, the individual attached a 2013 company registration from Turkey! The domain was owned by a client since 2009. The claimant is in textile and serves a very small local audience. Not only that, but the domain in question here has a .com.tr counterpart, which they recently registered in December 2019.

Here is the email he sent me directly:

During my research, I discovered they were going to rebrand to the (shorter) name they recently registered and felt entitled enough to steal the .com by coercion and intimidation.

Let's learn from each other to proactively protect our assets. Domains are unique, powerful, and valuable business tools. I am happy to share what my process is for establishing an appropriate response to help you fight this constant battle.

Share your recent experiences of fraudulent attempts to separate you from your rightful property.

Some relevant questions:

• How can we establish a standard operating procedure for aggressive defense of digital assets?
• How can the community come together to learn from each other?
• How can we establish legal rights to our property when someone (unscrupulous or not) comes demanding our property by force and coercion?

Warning: I am not an attorney.

 

[Samer]

Cite the GreenRoads.com case

They bought GreenRoads.com for $160,000 after failing to win the UDRP dispute they filed.

I’d personally show the best example of losers; who ended up ponying up way more in the end

Samer

 

[pooky]

In response an inquiry (by a broker on behalf of someone) for a domain that I had not listed for sale, I quoted an asking price of $10k. I got a reply that it's beyond the client's budget. So far so good. But the broker added this work of art:

Fortunately for you though, I have convinced them that this is still worth discussing to see if we can find some agreeable terms.

That stated, I am proposing to you the following hopefully reasonable offer that will make you a quick and decent profit as well as satisfy my client:

1. Client will reimburse you for upfront costs of holding the domain from 2014-2021: $91.00 USD (using namecheap's pricing and rounded up to $13.00 USD per year)
2. Client will pay for the escrow at escrow.com: $12.19-$23.63 USD (depending on settle method)
3. Client will provide a profit for you: $250.00 USD
4. This brings the total to $353.19-$364.63 USD, but to cover the spread of the escrow costs, and for your time spent, they added an additional amount to bring the amount they are willing to offer you $375.00 USD in totality.
5. In summary, the total to you: $375.00 USD

Seeing that we were far apart, I rejected the offer and also informed him that my 10k ask was rendered null and void by his counter-offer, and that my asking price would probably go up in the future. Apparently this was a hostile move according to the broker and he informed me that he would inform his client about my "hostility".

I told the moron not to contact me again.

 

[Silentptnr]

I think there should be a standard letter that a domain owner could email/send, that makes very clear all 3 of the necessary components to win a udrp. Possibly even pinpoints the weakness of the hijacker's case.

In addition to informing the hijacker of the facts, it wouild reflect strength. Also, it might help in securing a reverse domain hijacking decision. It would be easy to prove your attempt to avoid a wasteful process.

I might have to write that letter.

 

[Ategy]

I think there should be a standard letter that a domain owner could email/send, that makes very clear all 3 of the necessary components to win a udrp. Possibly even pinpoints the weakness of the hijacker's case.

Count me in on that, we would all benefit from a collective effort for defense. Many business groups do this for reoccurring issues.

Great idea for a thread...it is prudent for us (domain investors) to have a plan in place for if/when we have one of these termites crawl out of the woodwork as in the example you posted.

A form letter of some sort would be helpful. In general, for self and name protection, words should be chosen carefully when responding to an inquiry. That is not caving to intimidation— its just smart.

100% NO !!! Sorry for being so loud and blunt guys .. lol .. particularly since I know your intentions are obviously to be helpful to others. But the #1 weapon domainers have against unethical and immoral lawyers and "apparent" trademark owners is to pretend to be stupid and string them along and let them continue to make false statements and mistakes. The more mistakes they make the better. Like in @pooky's case the person used the word "profit". Just by the very fact they used that word legally opens the door to now allow @pooky to make future counter offers, whereas if they used the words "compensation for your time" any counter-offer by Pooky could have been used against him depending on how the initial contact was worded.

My advice is to never show what you know and always be as vague as possible. The dumber they think you are, the more aggressive they will be and the more likely they will be to do/say something that will later go to prove their bad faith. Even go so far as to ask seemingly stupid questions about why they think they have rights to the domain etc etc. The less you say and the more they say means that if it actually does end up in legal proceedings, you have an arsenal of proof and evidence supporting you and proving the bad faith of the complainant.

So the bottom line is NEVER EVER "educate" or "inform" potential complainants, and instead ALWAYS string them along and allow them to make mistakes.

Eventually when you have enough proof of bad faith you can use that to shut things down if you are 100% sure. But until you are 100% sure of your case, say as little as possible and get them to say too much.

Most importantly .. UDRPs are supposed to be standard and have rules .. but there are indeed many grey-zone cases where you can never be 100%. Or even worse .. those same grey-zone case where one panellist would vote one way and a different panellist would vote another way (even with the same information/evidence) .. so it's for that reason why it's always ideal to get as much supporting evidence in your favour as possible. In borderline cases unethical behaviour could make the difference if you can prove it. Which means whenever possible, NEVER giving them information or help and ALWAYS try to get them to say as much as possible.

In fact, it wouldn't even be a bad idea to pretend to be stupid on the subject of trademarks and ask them why they think they are legally entitled to the domain .. because if they come back with reasons that are not actual rules/laws that would go some ways to prove their bad faith.

Also .. never ever even use the term UDRP unless they use it first. NEVER! lol

 

[barman]

Several times people have told me they're going to file a trademark to get their desired name from me. I tried to explain to them that it's not how UDRP works.

So far, no one has actually gone through with it.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

I just got back from my quick afternoon walk with my Amstaff. During the walk, we run into a little chihuahua in a stroller that was barking incessantly at my rather muscular dog. Maverick took one cursory glance at the little yapper, snorted condescendingly and kept on with his distinguished gait. Let's take a page from Maverick's book. Don't dignify that hopeless attempt at intimidation with a response.

 

[BrandCollectors.com]

offer a free dot. xyz

 

[bmugford]

Some small time end under in Turkey is highly unlikely to file a meritless dispute.

The fact they offered $30 shows how cheap they are. Good luck with the thousands in lawyer and UDRP fees.

Brad

 

[frank-germany]

about 2004 or so they use to yell at me on phone
"it's MY domain"

I used to ask them "why the heck are you calling me if its YOUR domain?"

 

[BrandAptly.com]

In response an inquiry (by a broker on behalf of someone) for a domain that I had not listed for sale, I quoted an asking price of $10k. I got a reply that it's beyond the client's budget. So far so good. But the broker added this work of art:

Fortunately for you though, I have convinced them that this is still worth discussing to see if we can find some agreeable terms.

That stated, I am proposing to you the following hopefully reasonable offer that will make you a quick and decent profit as well as satisfy my client:

1. Client will reimburse you for upfront costs of holding the domain from 2014-2021: $91.00 USD (using namecheap's pricing and rounded up to $13.00 USD per year)
2. Client will pay for the escrow at escrow.com: $12.19-$23.63 USD (depending on settle method)
3. Client will provide a profit for you: $250.00 USD
4. This brings the total to $353.19-$364.63 USD, but to cover the spread of the escrow costs, and for your time spent, they added an additional amount to bring the amount they are willing to offer you $375.00 USD in totality.
5. In summary, the total to you: $375.00 USD

Seeing that we were far apart, I rejected the offer and also informed him that my 10k ask was rendered null and void by his counter-offer, and that my asking price would probably go up in the future. Apparently this was a hostile move according to the broker and he informed me that he would inform his client about my "hostility".

I told the moron not to contact me again.

There are way too many wannabe gangsters in this business. It makes it all the more spicy. You have to appreciate his approach (however moronic) for it's entertainment value. I give him an A+ for computation.

 

[bmugford]

Correct, that's the right way to deal with this.
If you try to educate your enemy, you will have lost half the war already.
A polite and firm "no thank you" sounds like the best response.

I don't know. I have fought off several meritless claims by pushing back.

It is not about educating the other party as much as showing them you are not a push over.
Often times these people are just looking for the low hanging fruit.

It does help though if you have experience and know what you are talking about, and can address the issues in a measured manner.

Brad

 

[.NJ]

The letter is from some small time no nothing company in TURKEY....

I would have crumpled it up and thrown it in garbage before I even finished reading it.

 

[Internet.Domains]

I spent a few months last year effectively destroying the lawyer of a global top 100 brand who was trying to intimidate a fellow domainer.

He behaved extremely unethically and I put him in his place.

Oh really. A lawyer behaving unethically?....Why do I seem not surprised?

 

[BrandAptly.com]

I think there should be a standard letter that a domain owner could email/send, that makes very clear all 3 of the necessary components to win a udrp. Possibly even pinpoints the weakness of the hijacker's case.

In addition to informing the hijacker of the facts, it wouild reflect strength. Also, it might help in securing a reverse domain hijacking decision. It would be easy to prove your attempt to avoid a wasteful process.

I might have to write that letter.

In crafting the letter, kindly structure it to accommodate the handicaps of the culprits with IQs below room temperature...like the guy above who clearly whipped out his antique abacus from the attic to painstakingly flaunt his imaginary mathematical acumen.

 

[karmaco]

A form letter of some sort would be helpful. In general, for self and name protection, words should be chosen carefully when responding to an inquiry. That is not caving to intimidation— its just smart.

Before you reply to anyone no matter how rude or aggressive they come across as— do your research. Sometimes people walk into a trap by their not thought out replies. You can put someone in their place in the nicest and most professional way possible. Never let them see you sweat it or become annoyed.

 

[Mister Funsky]

Share your recent experiences of fraudulent attempts to separate you from your rightful property.

Some relevant questions:

• How can we establish a standard operating procedure for aggressive defense of digital assets?
• How can the community come together to learn from each other?
• How can we establish legal rights to our property when someone (unscrupulous or not) comes demanding our property by force and coercion?

Great idea for a thread...it is prudent for us (domain investors) to have a plan in place for if/when we have one of these termites crawl out of the woodwork as in the example you posted.

A 'form letter' type of response, short and sweet, would be a goal for us to work on.

This (direct contact by fruitcakes and ensuing drain on time) is one of the reasons I am a proponent of privacy. Many years ago I had an unhinged owner of a salon come to my house demanding I give her the domain that had her unique (not) name in it. Although she was very beautiful and almost convinced me to capitulate, I was strong and let her know my rotties were highly trained to protect me and not only should she lower her voice but she should leave my property...quickly. I've used privacy ever since on all names.

 

[Silentptnr]

Yes .. this is why you should always respond with the minimum possible. Above I said I put the lawyer of a global top 100 brand in his place and shut him down completely. But it was after several months of VERY CAREFULLY thought out and planned correspondence. In the end he had zero on us (the domain wasn't mine, I was just helping a fellow domainer) and I had multiple emails of him crossing an ethical line trying to intimidate me. Each time he wrote something new I just laughed at how he was completely unaware he was digging his own grave. Then I'd wait a few days or even weeks and respond in a way that made him make even more mistakes. There was even a couple of times where I knew if I didn't write back, he would eventually reply with something that showed even more bad faith. Sure enough time after time like clock-work each my my responses and non-responses got him to say EXACTLY what I wanted him to say. Eventually it was enough for me to have checkmated him in my head .. but it was months and months of carefully thought out responses.

By far the best thing you can do when it comes to trademarks is learn and inform yourself on the actual rules and laws. Over the last few years I've become particularly informed on the subject thanks to closely listening to everything @jberryhill posts as well as podcasts both he and @Zak Muscovitch have given with @DomainSherpa and @DomainNameWire.

So DEFINITELY do not try this at home unless you've informed yourself. But either way the best rule of thumb to keep in mind is always say as little as possible and get them to say as much as possible. Obviously it won't make much difference if you're up against a good and ethical lawyer, or if you truly are infringing on someone else's trademark .. but always minimise your potential mistakes and maximise theirs.


While he might not post often, far and away the best resource for domainers on NamePros is the search result for @jberryhill posts. There is absolutely no way I or anyone can thank him enough for the vast amounts of information he has shared over the years .. you are throwing away crucial domainer education if you don't follow him. So to be clear .. thanks @jberryhill and @Zak Muscovitch!

I don't think I could play dumb if I received a communication requesting I give up my domain or face a udrp. I think I would be firm.

 

[Ategy]

I spent a few months last year effectively destroying the lawyer of a global top 100 brand who was trying to intimidate a fellow domainer.

He behaved extremely unethically and I put him in his place.

Really surprising how far some people are willing to go.

 

[DanSanchez]

The letter is from some small time no nothing company in TURKEY....

I would have crumpled it up and thrown it in garbage before I even finished reading it.

I would agree and a few others suggested it. But why let a bug get away if you can just squash it with facts, logic, and reason? Most of these folks have an emotional drive of entitlement and that does not naturally dissipate.

I spent a few months last year effectively destroying the lawyer of a global top 100 brand who was trying to intimidate a fellow domainer.

He behaved extremely unethically and I put him in his place.

Really surprising how far some people are willing to go.

Good for you, I did the same with a book publisher brand for the name FOUR//HOUR (com) and I'm sure you can figure out who it is if you have been around the book industry in any way. Their conduct was unbecoming, to say the least.

Most lawyers will use legalese to misconstrue their legal mark protection. Most domainers need to have a better perspective of their place in the hierarchy of mark ownership. As a domain owner, you control THE brand that is customer-facing. It is the ultimate kind of brand protection. It supersedes Trademarks in most cases. It is the main reason why the conversation of UDRP processes needs to reignite from our side.

 

[Ategy]

1. Client will reimburse you for upfront costs of holding the domain from 2014-2021: $91.00 USD (using namecheap's pricing and rounded up to $13.00 USD per year)
2. Client will pay for the escrow at escrow.com: $12.19-$23.63 USD (depending on settle method)
3. Client will provide a profit for you: $250.00 USD
4. This brings the total to $353.19-$364.63 USD, but to cover the spread of the escrow costs, and for your time spent, they added an additional amount to bring the amount they are willing to offer you $375.00 USD in totality.
5. In summary, the total to you: $375.00 USD

There are way too many wannabe gangsters in this business. It makes it all the more spicy. You have to appreciate his approach (however moronic) for it's entertainment value. I give him an A+ for computation

Actually .. this is pretty standard "compensation" pricing. Although his big mistake (where you can tell he's not a professional) was using the word "profit" instead of "compensation for your time". Otherwise in theory that pricing structure is pretty common in allowing the domain owner to make a bit of money, but at the same time allowing the "assumed" trademark owner to "make an offer", without it legally being an actual "offer" because technically it's just "compensation for your actual expenses and some of your time".

This tactic will often work because (1) many such domains were acquired for handreg or at least less than that typical $300-$500 range ($375 in this case) AND combined with the fact (2) most domainers have no clue about how trademarks and UDRPs work and will usually concede to a lawyer's scare tactics.

 

[Ategy]

Before you reply to anyone no matter how rude or aggressive they come across as— do your research. Sometimes people walk into a trap by their not thought out replies. You can put someone in their place in the nicest and most professional way possible. Never let them see you sweat it or become annoyed.

Yes .. this is why you should always respond with the minimum possible. Above I said I put the lawyer of a global top 100 brand in his place and shut him down completely. But it was after several months of VERY CAREFULLY thought out and planned correspondence. In the end he had zero on us (the domain wasn't mine, I was just helping a fellow domainer) and I had multiple emails of him crossing an ethical line trying to intimidate me. Each time he wrote something new I just laughed at how he was completely unaware he was digging his own grave. Then I'd wait a few days or even weeks and respond in a way that made him make even more mistakes. There was even a couple of times where I knew if I didn't write back, he would eventually reply with something that showed even more bad faith. Sure enough time after time like clock-work each my my responses and non-responses got him to say EXACTLY what I wanted him to say. Eventually it was enough for me to have checkmated him in my head .. but it was months and months of carefully thought out responses.

By far the best thing you can do when it comes to trademarks is learn and inform yourself on the actual rules and laws. Over the last few years I've become particularly informed on the subject thanks to closely listening to everything @jberryhill posts as well as podcasts both he and @Zak Muscovitch have given with @DomainSherpa and @DomainNameWire.

So DEFINITELY do not try this at home unless you've informed yourself. But either way the best rule of thumb to keep in mind is always say as little as possible and get them to say as much as possible. Obviously it won't make much difference if you're up against a good and ethical lawyer, or if you truly are infringing on someone else's trademark .. but always minimise your potential mistakes and maximise theirs.


While he might not post often, far and away the best resource for domainers on NamePros is the search result for @jberryhill posts. There is absolutely no way I or anyone can thank him enough for the vast amounts of information he has shared over the years .. you are throwing away crucial domainer education if you don't follow him. So to be clear .. thanks @jberryhill and @Zak Muscovitch!

 

[pooky]

A form letter of some sort would be helpful. In general, for self and name protection, words should be chosen carefully when responding to an inquiry. That is not caving to intimidation— its just smart.

Before you reply to anyone no matter how rude or aggressive they come across as— do your research. Sometimes people walk into a trap by their not thought out replies. You can put someone in their place in the nicest and most professional way possible. Never let them see you sweat it or become annoyed.

In my case, after explaining again why my initial offer was no longer valid, I added "Feel free not to contact me again".

It took all my strength not to add ", you moron" at the end of that sentence. Would have been really satisfying, especially because he was misrepresenting my position to his client.

 

[lock]

I had bikers call me a few times to tell me Jellywresting is theirs even turned up at a wrestling show. That particular show was attended by load of male wrestlers in audience. When they noticed I was getting leaned on they intervened and never had problem again. I registered the name first only got hassled when it got popular.

 

[tomcarl]

HallOfShame.com is a good site to mention to them.