I'm starting to feel like I'm a criminal

[binaryman]

I have been steering clear of TM issues by only regging NON TRADEMARKED names in GENERAL catagories and making sure that no-one owns a trademark on the name. But now I just read this and it seems we as domainers are "rubbish" whichever way you look at it.

"You don't "buy" a domain name. You register it. Why do I say this? No matter how many domain names are registered, the price stays the same. So you, the cyber-squatter, pay $25 or whatever to register the domain, then you take a payoff from someone else to transfer it to them. Basically, you are taking advantage of a monopoly, ICANN, to make a few bucks. **** off and die. You are providing no service to anyone, and you expect to get paid for it.

The whole reason people have been fooled into believing cyber-squatting is OK is that improper language including terms such as "buying" and "selling" have been used to describe it. I implore the press to start using proper terminology such as "registration" and "payoff" to refer to these acts when they are applied to registering domain names and transferring them in exchange for money.

I really don't care about the distinction others make between "cyber-squatting" and "domain name speculation." It's all the same to me, except that one is illegal under US law. Doesn't anyone care about ethics any more?
Solutions

I'd be just whining if I didn't offer a solution. The simplest solution would be to remove the artificial limits on the size of the top-level namespace, allowing any random string of characters to be used, except perhaps reserved ones for countries, etc. Then .com domain names would cease to be so sought-after. Another solution would be something similar to my proposal for a cooperative DNS infrastructure.

Cyber-squatting is a symptom of problems in the very structure of the Internet, one that warrants a technological and social solution, not a legal one."
Sean R. Lynch

 

[greggish]

Could you post a link to where that was posted?

 

[binaryman]

Yes here it is

http://www.chaosring.org/~seanl/cybersquatting.html
And here is the link to the guy who wrote it
http://www.chaosring.org/~seanl/

And this is where I found the link to the above article.
http://www.zyra.org.uk/cybsquam.htm
http://www.zyra.org.uk/cybsquat.htm

 

[armstrong]

"You don't "buy" a domain name. You register it.

Regardless of how one feels about this issue, there is already legal precedent that defines domain names as property.

Why do I say this? No matter how many domain names are registered, the price stays the same.

Since when has this become the basis of ownership? Let's see ... no matter how many copies are bought, the price of baseball cards remains the same. If they experience unusual demand, I guess they simply print more copies. Does that mean I didn't buy and therefore don't own my collection? Try taking them away from me then.

 

[DNQuest.com]

It is a fine line of property or not. but beware, the government taxes all property you own, so conceivably, they could tax domain names in some form if it is considered property. I am still of the beleif that we lease domains, we have rights to them when we pay our registration fee. There are rules and restrictions we must adhere to in order to keep the domain.

 

[Gene]

That ideology could be applied to anything you buy and sell. When a real estate developer buys a foreclosed property (reg fee) and resells it a month later for MARKET VALUE which a great deal more than he paid for it, is that ethically wrong?

 

[Devil_Dog]

Sounds like someone who's butthurt they couldn't get the domain they so desired.

 

[Dave_Z]

As someone else posted before, it depends on what side of the door you're on.

 

[JMJ]

I'd like to know where his place of business is so I can journey over and make him sell me whatever service or product he has to offer at cost.

 

[DNQuest.com]

That ideology could be applied to anything you buy and sell. When a real estate developer buys a foreclosed property (reg fee) and resells it a month later for MARKET VALUE which a great deal more than he paid for it, is that ethically wrong?

When you buy property, by law you must pay taxes on that property. If you do not pay, you lose it in a tax sale so the govt can get the taxes owed. But we own the property outright, if you don't pay taxes, you are breaking the law.

 

[Gene]

When you buy property, by law you must pay taxes on that property. If you do not pay, you lose it in a tax sale so the govt can get the taxes owed. But we own the property outright, if you don't pay taxes, you are breaking the law.

I understand, it's not a perfect example. Lets apply it to different item. If you strolled the world's beaches looking for the most beautiful seashells, would it be wrong to bring them home, put a price tag on them and sell them at a high-end boutique for profit? After all, they're free for the taking. You only spent gas money to get to the beach (reg fee).

It is up to the potential customer whether or not it's worth buying at your asking price. If they don't think your price is fair, they could invest THEIR time seeking out the best shells for themselves (or domains). On the other hand, if they love the shell (domain) you found, and knowing it takes a lot of searching to find the perfect shell (domain), they may think your asking price is a bargain.

It takes many hours to find a great shell, or a great domain. It takes time and overhead to market and maintain your collection of shells (domains). Clients who come to you to buy your shells (domains) do so because you've already done the leg-work and invested the time. It is their choice to buy from your display case rather than spend countless hours or days finding one on their own. They are buying convenience.

 

[armstrong]

When you buy property, by law you must pay taxes on that property. If you do not pay, you lose it in a tax sale so the govt can get the taxes owed. But we own the property outright, if you don't pay taxes, you are breaking the law.

There are both taxable and untaxable properties. Real estate of course belongs to the former. But how about diamond rings, antiques, bicycles, guns, etc? While we could get charged a sales tax upon purchase (just like domain names if you buy from a local business), unlike real estate we don't pay taxes on these every year. But still we "own" these valuable things.

 

[labrocca]

Domains are rented from icaan. They are not property and I would love to see this "precedent" that armstrong talks about. We sign lease agreements whenever we purchase a domain.

Binaryman I am really puzzled from your posts. Are you a person that needs to have some strong moral and ethical way to make money? You seem to read into the whole domaining thing on a good vs evil plane. Who cares...make money. Don't rip people off and follow the rules as best you can. The world ain't black and white and neither is domaining. Sorry but I know of no 'domainer' that doesn't have a dirty name or two in their portfolio. You got all upset when I said you were a squatter before..so what...who am I to you? I could care less if you called me a squatter or hijacker or whatever. I sleep pretty good at night. This is domains and business. No one is killing people here.

As for that article..it's pretty much true but the problem is all structures have places to be exploited. He says to diminish the .com effect then allow any extension. That's stupid. We already have lots of extensions and it only ADDS value to the .com as it's most sought after. If we have 10,000 extensions .com would still be king. Also if you allowed any extension then squatting could be worse. Imagine being microsoft.com and you had to sue and WIPO every jerk setting up a site at microsoft.new or whatever.

Where do you come up with these articles btw? Are you googling for "I don't wanna be a squatter" or what?

This thread and your attitude about domaining is upsetting me more and more. I normally don't get unhinged but really...what's your point in all this? If you really feel that guilty about domaining then quit. I personally have a lot of generic clean domains like democracyforums.com, gourmetforums.com, and cinemaforums.com that have zero TM problems. There are LOTS of generic term names that are really the gems of domainers. Go take a peek at DNJournal.com and you will see week after week of top sales are GENERIC terms with no TM problems. So what if a few TM domains are bought and sold...the nuts and bolts of most domainers is GENERIC terms.

You as a new domainer stand very little chance of registering any decent .com generic terms. Maybe this is your problem. Are you getting fed-up with whois queries and finding every name you can think of taken? Why get mad because someone got it before you. Obviously you are searching cuz you want it...so why not be happy for the guy that did. Or better yet email him and try to buy it. Basically domaining for good names now involved buying 3rd party. I hand reg a few names per week (today was gameserverforums.com) but they may never amount to very much. It's the names I buy at places like this that I do MUCH better with.

In your subject you say you feel like a criminal...for what? You can't go to jail for this crap. There might be civil penalties but jeez that's really rare. You think we are "rubbish" just cuz some putz wrote 2 paragraphs about cybersquatting??? Sorry but cybersquatting has many definitions and normally they involve TM infringement. If you are steering clear of TM domains (which is EASY to do) then why feel like a criminal? Is everyone who tries to make a buck a criminal? Every level of capitalism involves a person making money off someone or something. From the farmer to the fisherman..from the grocer to the truck driver. EVERYONE makes money off someone. That's capitalism.

jeez that was a long rant...I hope I didn't come off like a jerk

http://www.DNF/f26/death-domain-owner-thread-15305.html

I knew there was a thread I read from jberryhill about domains as property.

More digging and I got this from archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040617101023/http://www.open-rsc.org/essays/berryhill/property/

This here is relevant too:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040617102509/www.open-rsc.org/essays/berryhill/whyno/

 

[primacomputer]

"You don't "buy" a domain name. You
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Sean R. Lynch

I've heard the same drivel for over a decade. Unfortunately this article isn't dated so I don't know if it is original old drivel or rehashed new drivel. All I know is it's drivel whatever the case. Sorry guys, TLDs make sense, they work, and they're here to stay.

It is a fine line of property or not. but beware, the government taxes all property you own, so conceivably, they could tax domain names in some form if it is considered property.

Which government is that? What property is that? I have a TV set that's my property and I've never paid a cent in tax on it. And no, there is no VAT where I bought it.

When you buy property, by law you must pay taxes on that property. If you do not pay, you lose it in a tax sale so the govt can get the taxes owed. But we own the property outright, if you don't pay taxes, you are breaking the law.

And no, I was not breaking the law when I bought that TV without paying taxes.

This whole “you'll pay taxes it domains are property” is largely a figment of someones active imagination.

Domains are rented from icaan. They are not property and I would love to see this "precedent" that armstrong talks about. We sign lease agreements whenever we purchase a domain.

I can't speak for Armstrong, but he might be referring the the sex.com case. In a nut shell, NSI screwed up and allowed someone to steal the name from the original owner. They then claimed they weren't liable because it wasn't property, they had all these terms and conditions, etc. The judge didn't buy it, said there were some property rights for domain names and ordered NSI to pay millions in compensation.

Also, you can't lease or rent something that's not property. Technically they are claiming a name is a service, not a thing that you rent.

 

[armstrong]

Yes, the sex.com case set a legal precedent that defined domain names as a form of property.

 

[DNQuest.com]

Prima, there are ways to to but items without taxes.. froma neighbor, craisgslist, auction, street corner, flea market, etc... but if you buy it from a store, you are going to pay taxes on it, or at least the person who bought it paid taxes on it.

As far as the active imagination about taxes, there are very few things in life that are not taxed, I pay tax on food, utilities, furniture, candy, drinks, gas, vehicles, property, etc (please keep in mind, some items are sold with tax INCLUDED in the price). What makes you think at some point, the government sees a million dollar sale from a domain and they get no piece of the action, they say it is property and needs to be taxed. Eventually, it could come up.

In the US, we are tax happy, please keep that in mind (where is the is the central registry located?)

I see domains as intellectual property, and we have limit use of that property when we register the domain. Notice we register and not buy domains.

 

[labrocca]

DNQ you are talking about a sales tax. We already pay icaan a quarter on every registration. A tax doesn't make something a property...only that a government has found a way to tax it. Services in some places are taxed too.

I have not read up too much on the sex.com case.

 

[Badger]

Interesting post binary - the article is so generalistic and as others have said could be attached to a number of circumstances... But an interesting point of view nonetheless...

And nice to see the "domain police" partaking in yet another TM related discussion.. :lol:

 

[fonzie_007]

If reselling domains was made illegal, can you imagine how many people would be out of jobs and how many websites would be no more?

 

[DNQuest.com]

Labrocca, there are sales tax (like whe you SELL a domain), excise tax, transfer tax, VAT (in some countries), and I am sure the government can come up with something creative to take our money away. My point is, if you make domains along the lines as tangible property, the government may find a way to tax it (and retax it in the case of a reseller). I know where I live, if I buy a used car, I have to pay taxes on it (even though the original buy already paid taxes on it). As you said, we pay 25 cents in taxes, imagine if the government found a way to tax the domains when we resell them. Using my car analogy, the buyer would ahv to pay taxes on the domain purchase (which we would have to report). On top of that, we culd be subject to capital gains if you are not in business already.

In conclusion, all I have said is be careful how the government views domain sales.

 

[armstrong]

The only reason many domain sales are not taxed is because they are not monitored, since most sales are conducted at the personal level. Like other consumer items (jewelry, baseball cards, antiques, paintings), capital gains taxes will accrue only if the transaction is reported. While it may be legally required to report all your personal profits (or not, depending on where you live), many transactions at this level - whether for domains or jewelry or whatever - are not.

Still, the issue of taxes is irrelevant to whether something is property or not.

 

[labrocca]

Something doesn't have to be tangible DNQ for it to be taxed. Utility services are taxed, services like automobile repair services, heck even 'airport taxes' just for buying a ticket.

Still, the issue of taxes is irrelevant to whether something is property or not.

EXACTLY

 

[DNQuest.com]

That is the point I am trying to make, I guess I'm not presenting properly. As long as we stay under the radar of the government, they will leave us alone (hopefully). We all know utilities, we all know car repair, not everyone knows about domains and I want to keep it that way. So if people keep pushing for domains to be real property (or the perception of real property), someone may tax notice that a huge sale was not taxed, that's all I'm trying to say.

As far as capital gains, if I sell my car for more than I bought it, I have to pay gains on it and the person has to pay taxes on the purchase (double taxation), I don't want that for domains.

 

[primacomputer]

Prima, there are ways to to but items without taxes.. froma neighbor, craisgslist, auction, street corner, flea market, etc... but if you buy it from a store, you are going to pay taxes on it, or at least the person who bought it paid taxes on it.

This is simply not true. I bought my TV from a store and I did not pay tax on it. The store I bought it from did not pay any taxes on it. The company that imported the TV and sold it to the store didn't pay any taxes on it. Heck, the factory that made it probably didn't even pay any taxes on it because it was for export.

As far as the active imagination about taxes, there are very few things in life that are not taxed, I pay tax on food, utilities, furniture, candy, drinks, gas, vehicles, property, etc (please keep in mind, some items are sold with tax INCLUDED in the price).

Thanks for sharing, although I don't see the relevance. I don't pay any tax on food, utilities, furniture and plenty of other things. But it's always reassuring to hear that I'm getting a better deal than someone else

What makes you think at some point, the government sees a million dollar sale from a domain and they get no piece of the action, they say it is property and needs to be taxed. Eventually, it could come up.

Nothing makes me say that. In fact I didn't say it.
All I have said is that not all property is taxed and not all things with are not property are untaxed. That's my whole point. The issue of whether a name is considered “property” is largely irrelevant as to whether it is taxed or not.

If some government wants to try to tax domain names they're welcome to it. They won't even have to classify names a “property”, just make a law saying you have to pay tax. But it won't affect me in the slightest because I will simply see to it that transactions are done in one of the myriad of other jurisdictions that don't have such silly laws.

In the US, we are tax happy, please keep that in mind (where is the is the central registry located?)

(Nowhere)
There is no “central registry”. There's a collection of root servers located in many places around the world which provide pointers to the root servers for all the TLDs.

As for being “tax happy” you might want to read up on the law. It's been largely illegal to tax the Internet since 1998.

I see domains as intellectual property, and we have limit use of that property when we register the domain. Notice we register and not buy domains.

Oh. So they are property after all? Glad we finally got that sorted out

 

[Badger]

well, i dunno about the US but in the UK (and i must concur with DNQ) you pay value added tax on everything you buy (with certain exceptions noted above like food, clothing etc).. The only person however to actually pay the tax is the consumer, for every other link in the purchasing chain, from manufacturer to re-seller, claims back the tax..

Now, to use examples as given, you buy a TV from a store, you pay tax - this may not be shown on the sales receipt, but trust me, YOU PAY TAX...

Now the point about the internet and tax is very complex and very difficult to police [im sure here Prima can call on his domain police]. However, you buy and sell domains, you get paid from foreign sources, whatever country you are in (and if you are unlucky to receive a tax audit) the evidence against you (if you choose to declare the income showing in your bank account as repayment of a loan (or other such ficticious story)) is very hard to prove to the contrary..

I read an article recently by the UK inland revenue that billions per year are being lost in tax through the likes of ebay sales etc and the seller being untraceable... Now this has been going on for years, you wash someones car as a kid, you babysit for someone, you hold a garage sale etc etc - these are all incomes which should be taxable - but who declares them...? No-one, thats who... The internet has changed this, its now big business and billions are being wiped from the central coffers as a result... Im sure they will get round to putting pressure on bodies such as sedo etc in due course but their problem is and always will be the fact that you are dealing with just so many different countries and jurisdictions - at the mo, its nigh on impossible...

Thankfully :red: