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How Well-Informed Was This Advice ? - getvisacard(.com)

Labeled as domain in Domain Appraisal started by blue crystal, Aug 3, 2019.

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  1. blue crystal

    blue crystal Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    I bought the domain name "getvisacard(.com)" but I was advised that I would have “trademark problems” with it. As consequence, I asked my registrar to remove ( delete ) it from my list of domain names.
    But now, I found out that several domain names containing “visacard” words were sold:

    visacard.info $1,000
    totalvisacard.com $500
    acevisacard.com $299

    And there are hundreds that were put to sell. Here are some few examples:

    visacardinal.com $1,400

    securedvisacard.com $1,000
    goldenvisacard.com $1,499
    blackvisacard.com $10,000
    prepaidvisacards.com $4,988
    visacardpayment.com $480

     
    The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
  2. ecalc

    ecalc Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    When you do something iffy then ask others to comment and they say you made a mistake, there are three ways to handle it:
    1) Ignore them and hope nobody notices.
    2) Admit the mistake and learn from it.
    3) Come up with an excuse so outrageous it makes other people blush.

    Consider the possibility that the advice was very well informed, good luck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  3. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes formerly MetBob NameTalent Gold Account VIP

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    There is no doubt that domains with glaring apparent TM issues are listed for sale and some are listed in sales on public sources. Note that I say apparent because TM issues are more complex than sometimes seems. But that does not mean that there are not TM issues as people told you. Just because some people speed and don't get caught does not mean that it is right to speed or that I would not get stopped if I exceeded the speed limit (which I never do :xf.smile:).

    So I think people offered you good advice (I was not one of them, but agree with the advice they offered you). Visa when combined with card seems to be asking for trouble to my non-expert non-legal mind.

    But it is my view that each person always must be responsible for their own decisions. By all means ask people for opinions, and weigh those, but ultimately we should always each be the ones deciding what to do in every situation. You can get educated views on almost any domain related topic on NPs, but never let someone else decide anything for you.

    Just my humble opinion,

    Bob
     
  4. gilescoley

    gilescoley Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Its 100% correct advice. Just because some squatter sells a domain to fellow squatter, doesnt make it right.
     
  5. stub

    stub Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    You took the correct course of action, IMHO. I don't understand this second guessing you are playing here. If someone you know put their head in the fire, would you want to emulate them?
     
  6. blue crystal

    blue crystal Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    No doubt. Any decision taken by me is my responsibility. I never said anything contrary to that.
    Since I am a newbie in this business I have no other alternative than lend a lot of trust in people who are more experienced than me. However, a person lacking experience is not necessarily also incapable of analyzing evidence, exercising logical thinking and weighing probabilities. One thing is not synonymous of the other. Unfortunately, it only occurred to me searching for domain names with those keywords now. And I became stupefied when I saw not one or two domain names carrying the words "visacard" but hundreds of them !!!
    Is it possible that hundreds of domainers are that naive or irresponsibly bold ?
    Another thought emerged in my mind when answering this question:
    What really represents a threat to an established company with a trademark ?
    It is another similar established business that has also similar domain name in its web site and has a business in the same geographic area. But only when there is such a WEB SITE. A new domain name alone, without a web site, that is not exploited commercially, represents no threat at all because it is not even known. Only if the one who owns it, decides to use it, and creates a SIMILAR ( competing ) website business - is when it becomes a real threat.
    Furthermore, from what I read so far, many businesses are very local ( their activity is within a city, a province or, at most, a country ). This means that a similar domain name used in a different country will not represent any type of competition to them. Who says this is not even me but what many experts say about trademarks in their sites and blogs.
    Here, I am not trying to oppose the views of someone and "win" the debate. Nor I am trying to doubt the sincerity of the knowledge or intention of others. Those who debate for these motives are infantile. I debate because no matter the size of one's expertise or cleverness, being human, sometimes he/she will make mistakes. So, a rational and civil conversation do not aim to make winners and losers but allow everyone becoming a bit more enlightened at the end of a conversation even if each one continues holding the same core opinion. This is a free-thinking forum, not an indoctrinating church that forbids doubts or alternative views ( at least, I hope so ).
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  7. stub

    stub Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    @blue crystal - If this is a debate. Which side do you fall in this debate? This is an obvious TM infringement to me.
     
  8. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes formerly MetBob NameTalent Gold Account VIP

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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  9. gilescoley

    gilescoley Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Yes there are thousands of squatters out there registering 100s of thousands of trademarke names. There are thousands of TM names on this site alone if you go and check, as well as Sedo, Godaddy, Afternic Ebay etc

    Dont try convince anyone on here using the "If I dont develop it but just own the name then Im not infringing" angle, we've seen this so many times on here. New domainers dont buy mames just to have them in their account and do nothing with them. They want to sell them and thats where youre infringing by benefitting financially from a company trademark.

    They also usually want to sell it to the TM holder but won't admit it. Just take it as a lesson learnt, delete the name(s) and move on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  10. blue crystal

    blue crystal Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    Bob, the cases of your examples, the infringing company used the entire trademarked names and not
    a combination with unrelated names.
     
  11. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TLDInvestors.com TheDomains Staff PRO Gold Account VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Names listed for sale mean nothing, all it means is someone else wants to play with fire. The names that sold that are mentioned, two of them don’t show sold according to Namebio. The one left out was the biggest sale visacards.com for $10,000 on NameJet. Guess who owns that? Visa. It was actually left to expire and Visa International won the name at auction on NameJet.

    Visa International has won UDRP’s and taken back names like, VisaGiftCard.com, Verified – By – Visa.com, one haul that included:
    visabank.org, visabanking.com, visabanking.net, visabanking.org and visb.org.

    The advice to stay away from potential tm’s is always the right advice, especially for a new domain investor. Yes some older and more experienced domain investors play or have played that game. A lot of times they have the bankroll to play those games. Maybe they win, maybe they lose, but either way they have the bankroll to stay in the game.

    As I have written before, even if you win the UDRP there is no guarantee you are in the clear. What would you have done if you won the UDRP, and then lost in court and lost the name, the legal fees incurred by Visa International, and $50,000 to $100,000?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  12. gilescoley

    gilescoley Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    You really need to read the legal section for a few months before buying anymore names. This is just common sense really, and that is one of the most obvious, blatant TM infringments I have seen on here.
     
  13. myfavorite

    myfavorite Established Member

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    That a lot people are still selling illegal products doesn't mean you join them. Unless you don't care about your reputation and consequence of such action.
     
  14. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Member VIP

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    Well, maybe if they found $50K in-between the logs I might. :xf.eek:
     
  15. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes formerly MetBob NameTalent Gold Account VIP

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    I actually disagree with this. Whether new to the industry or long experienced, I think that we all have the alternative to carefully research the topic. Several IP lawyers have written a lot on the topic, both in books and online and on social media and of course NPs. The UDRP procedures and terms are well described and you one can search past cases easily (and to some degree without cost).

    I read lots of opinions on NPs and often obtain insights I would miss from them, but almost always I place more trust in careful research I have done myself than any individual opinion. As others have noted, the key risk here is not simply losing the domain name in a UDRP, but if they choose to go the court route the possibility of a judgement against that awarded damages and could be financially ruinous. I have not done so, but I am sure anyone could search out and read some past cases to assess how likely that is to happen.

    Yes, in this particular case the fact that a number of experienced domainers were essentially unanimous in saying the name was asking for trouble would influence how I thought about it, but I disagree that you had no other alternative. The alternative was to do your own research. Yes, a lot of work but you would learn a lot along the way.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  16. biggie

    biggie Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Hi

    I would advise you in the future, to use regular font in your initial posts

    the use of bolded and enlarged typeset is not necessary


    and just stay away from any name that may be trademarked

    imo….
     
  17. stub

    stub Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The simple solution to not going the court route, if it is not the primary method of the trademark owner to obtain trademark infringement claims, is to just not defend the UDRP :)
     
  18. Internet.Domains

    Internet.Domains Top Member VIP

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    Not all things are as they appear.

    Often times a term can have multiple meanings. This is called "parallel registrations."

    When I hear the term "visa" I think of immigration, probably because it is a hot topic in the media, particularly in the tech sector.

    What is a U.S. Visa?

    A citizen of a foreign country who seeks to enter the United States generally must first obtain a U.S. visa, which is placed in the traveler’s passport, a travel document issued by the traveler’s country of citizenship.

    https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas.html

    What is a card?

    card
    /kärd/
    noun
    1. 1.
      a piece of thick, stiff paper or thin pasteboard, in particular one used for writing or printing on.
      "some notes jotted down on a card"
      synonyms: cardboard, pasteboard, board
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  19. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes formerly MetBob NameTalent Gold Account VIP

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    I am not sure exactly how you are arguing, @Internet.Domains I totally agree that visa and card can have generic (or other) meanings as you say and do. I can see for example that VisaHelp might well be a domain name about assistance with visa and immigration issues, and there might even be cases of 3 word domains including visa and card that would point to something that had nothing to do with payment systems.

    Like many issues, I think it is best for people to themselves carefully research any topic that is important to them. They can weight opinions others offer, but that should only be a part of their decision.

    In this case, I can see that the name could be argued to be alright, but it becomes a judgement call do you want the potential huge headache to try to fight that legal battle, if it rose.

    Part of research is to look at past cases and similar cases. Fortunately @equity78 provided in this thread a nice summary of some domain decisions involving this word. I have not closely done so but if it was my domain I certainly would have.

    For me, a practical test is if I say the word combination to ten people, what would they think it applies to. And of course the other question for any domain word combination is what value does it have for those areas that have nothing to do with the TM. But some potential purchasers, I would think many as others have noted, would stick away from it even if they have an unrelated use, just because they don't want the risk of a battle.

    I know that generic word branding is a big trend for the largest companies, but if I was them, I think having a word that is too generic means they will always be fighting TM battles. I am not surprised that some companies choose to go with made up names, even though the up front cost of advertising/promotion to get the brand known is higher.

    None of this is legal opinion!

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  20. Internet.Domains

    Internet.Domains Top Member VIP

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    Obviously the content would be a large part of any decision. If the domain had paid parking with banking links it would be obvious infringement.

    However, if there are links to immigration information, that seems to fall in the fair use category.

    It should also be noted that the keyword "card" is widely used in immigration and can easily be linked to a "visa."

    An arrival card, also known as an incoming passenger card, landing card or disembarkation card, is a legal document used by immigration authorities of many countries to obtain information about incoming passenger not provided by the passenger's passport (such as health, criminal record, where they will be staying.

    (This is not legal advice and is used only for discussion purposes)
     
  21. bmugford

    bmugford www.DataCube.com PRO ICA Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Outside any TM issue, the domain is not that good anyway. It is not even worth the effort or energy to deal with these type of domains.

    I would suggest spending more time learning what good domains look like.

    Brad
     
  22. bmugford

    bmugford www.DataCube.com PRO ICA Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    In my view the card aspect makes this domain more infringing. If you say "Visa" various people will think of either the credit card or travel document. Clearly "visa" has a stand alone generic use related to that travel document.

    If you say "Visa Card" I think the vast majority people will think you are referring to the credit card.

    I think it is a theoretical stretch to make the argument that "visa card" is generic. If the company Visa had an issue you would just have to fold anyway, because what are you going to do spend thousands of dollars defending a worthless domain?

    Brad
     
  23. Internet.Domains

    Internet.Domains Top Member VIP

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    I am just making the point that it COULD be argued that it could be used in a generic setting. Similar to the Delta analogy.

    Some people, such as travelers, will associate "Delta" with an airline. Those in the plumbing business will associate "Delta" with plumbing fixtures. The same can be said with many terms.

    Similarly, those wanting to enter the United States for work will associate "Visa card" with immigration. Many others will associate it with banking.

    All depends who you ask, the demographics.

    The macro point to be made is that there is an opportunity for legitimate use without infringement, if the content is done accurately.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  24. stub

    stub Top Member PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The point here is when @blue crystal was registering these domains, what was he thinking. Was he thinking a) Visa Credit Card or b) Visa Immigration Card. And how do I know this? Because all of his examples are for the Visa Credit Card. Secondly. What use did he put the domains too? He was trying to sell them alongside other TM infringing domains. At no time was he thinking about a Visa Immigration Card until it was planted in his brain by @Internet.Domains, after the fact. This is a slam dunk, TM infringement UDRP or TM court case, with no hope of winning against a financial behemoth, with potential severe penalties. Even after selling these domains his liability doesn't cease. I cannot believe I'm even having this conversation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  25. ecalc

    ecalc Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    If you ask Google [get visa card] the first 2 pages of results are 100% credit and debit card EXCEPT there is one lifeline on page 2 about how to get a Cuban visa. This makes UDRP/courtroom show prep much easier. Green army fatigues head to toe, don’t shave, march in humming El Himno de Bayamo thru an unlit gas station cigar. Stick to a simple script, “homeland or death” is traditional, repeat if necessary. Decision in favor of respondent is a lead pipe cinch.
     

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