How to price brandable domains

[svede]

I am looking to get the community's opinion on how they price brandable domains. When I say brandable domains, I am referring to:
- non-dictionary .coms (or it must be a very odd/archaic dictionary to break this rule)
- LLLL.com
- 5-7 Letter pronounceable .coms
- dictionary word .com that has been modified (i.e., -ly ending)
- 2 dictionary words that fit together or sound good together (RedBox.com, FitBit.com)

Obviously, we all hope that an enduser sees our domain and tracks us down, but that tends to be less likely in brandables IMHO. So how do you decide how much to price for your BINs - whether listed on Sedo/Afternic or your own brandable domain site (assuming you make the choice - unlike BrandBucket.com). Do you list really low and hope it invites buyers? Do you list high hoping to find companies willing to pay it? How would you find something in the "middle"?? I have been comparing all sorts of brandable domain sites (BrandBucket.com, Brandroot.com, Namerific.com, and all sorts of smaller ones) and don't see much of a strong pattern. Any thoughts? I wan't to maximize profits (obviously) while realizing that higher quantity sold can sometimes be higher profits.

EDIT:
Also, for anyone who has their own brandable domain website, do you invite offers/negotiation despite having a BIN? If so, do interested parties usually ask on their own? Or do you "advertise" that in some way (without impacting those who might be willing to pay BIN??

Any and all constructive comments welcome!!

Thanks,
Stephen

 

[svede]

That is what machine learning is all about (one of my areas of study - I'm a software engineer). There are always things you can find in common in chaos. Yes, you will always have outliers, but that doesn't mean you can't find patterns.

Also, I have already stated that there IS an answer. Even if the answer is as Biggie said to throw a dart at a pizza box with prices. Prices don't magically appear when someone posts a brandable domain for sale. Someone must decide how they come up with that price. I am asking the community how they personally do that task. I welcome any answer as long as it is honestly what they do or know others to do or will help me find a way to better do it myself.

Can we please get back to the topic and stop this rabbit trail?

 

[alcy]

we can do whatever you want to do.. this is your thread.

all I was saying is that the topic IS the rabbit trail.

good luck

 

[equity78]

There is not rhyme or reason, a lot of things really come down to salesmanship, timing and luck and the randomness that is domain sales. It is art not science, those trying to apply mathematical equations or scientific study will go mad. Why did Dudu.com sell for $1million and LoLo.com $21,000 3years after it sold for $37,000 and the seller took a loss ? I mean you don't get much better than the two same repeating letters for a CVCV.

Let's take a look at some Brand Bucket type brandables that sold this week on Sedo

hayal.com 10,000 USD
stockplus.com 10,000 EUR Not the brandable that Brand Bucket sells, but what a guy like Mike Berkens does.
exbit.com 8,000 USD
saurus.com 7,000 USD
travelko.com 5,000 USD
designow.com 5,000 USD
crystalina.com 3,999 USD
fuzza.com 2,698 USD
nisita.com 2,600 USD
biddr.com 2,500 USD
sorbus.com 2,100 GBP
golfie.com 2,100 USD
carcool.com 2,000 USD
mobrand.com 2,000 USD
e-vault.com 1,999 EUR
appsumer.com 1,450 USD
manvia.com 1,400 EUR
lingome.com 1,300 USD
woldo.com 1,250 USD
maxla.com 1,000 USD
growgirl.com 999 USD
bikasa.com 925 USD
krali.com 800 USD
ornata.com 700 EUR

Then there is that point about language, sometimes an English speaker sees a name and thinks it was a M.U.P. Made Up Pronounceable, but it was bought for a meaning in Spanish or Portuguese.

There are a lot of factors that bring about a sales.

 

[svede]

Absolutely, my mention of machine learning wasn't that I was going to make it all mathematical. That being said, all language and creativity breaks down mathematically (I mean they wrote code that can write Shakespeare-style poetry...)... but that is digressing.

The point is more that we can try to study and understand it to better price things. If someone finds that domains that are a keyword + "ly" always sell fast when priced at $3,000, he probably won't want to set a BIN on a similar one for for $1,000.

I completely agree there are many factors, but that doesn't mean we can't boil away some of the excess. People will ALWAYS find outliers. I'm okay with that. Salemanship can result in more sales as you said. So can marketing. Language is huge. But let's take BrandBucket as an example. They price domains daily. Do you really think that they choose random numbers? No, they probably go by many different factors including past sales, current market, language-similarity, keywords, etc etc. I am just asking for what people do so I can better develop mine. There will ALWAYS be subjectiveness to it - I'm okay with that. But people still make the decision somehow.

So, let's take one I got recently - Teamso.com. I look at a number of things in deciding the value:
- radio test
- uses an English word
- short (6 letters)
- catchy (to me - subjective)

From there, I go and decide what I want to price it at.

What do you do for brandable domains?

 

[equity78]

I didn't read your comment about machine learning til after I posted, I had this thread open for a few hours and just replied, after I read your comment, and thought he is going to think I am rebuking machine learning. Not at all, I would just say the brandable space is a different space especially the M.U.P.S. because why does one person sell theirs for $1,000 and another gets $8,000 ?

 

[svede]

Ah, no problem!

But, I think you are misunderstanding my question.

My question is not what is the maximum price I could sell for; it is not what is the value of the domain.

It is how do people decide what to price brandables domains at.

That person may have gotten $8,000 because they asked for that much and someone fell in love with it - that simple. I completely accept that it isn't 100% science, but has a lot of art and chance to it.

But that being said, when you have 1,000 domains that have sold and even 40% of them have something in common and are priced similarly, this can form a pattern to look for. I am sure that Brand Bucket uses lots of data to determine pricing - and a lot of subjectiveness! I just want to understand how others do it better.

I should also add that there are FAR more outliers in LLLL.com because it could be the letters belonging to a huge company. Due to stuff like this, I would NEVER lock myself into a formula.

But doesn't every use guiding principals in conjunction with subjective instinct when pricing?

I am just hoping to uncover more of that.

 

[equity78]

I did do a breakdown of that awhile back Svede when Brand Bucket produced stats and had some helpful info added by @hookbox

19 names ending in ZO like Foozo.com sold out of the 680. I had owned some names ending in zo which at the time I thought were ok, but then changed my mind and dropped a pronounceable 5 letter one and I also dropped Cloudzo.com. Seeing names like Spoonzo.com sell for four figures makes me think I should have kept the name.

Here are some other letter combinations that resulted in sales:

18 ending in ly

17 ending in io

Margot Bushnaq the founder actually commented on Namepros saying this about .io, "Names ending in -io had a burst of popularity around 2007-2009. It then
died off because it started to be seen as too "web 2.0" and trendy.
For some reason, however, we've seen a resurgence not only in interest
in -io names from buyers, but in new companies launched — most likely
because of people starting to use the TLD .io as a hack when they can't
find a suitable .com."

10 ending in US

9 ending in mo with 27 others containing mo in the name

8 ending in XO

7 ending in sy

5 ending in oo with 25 others containing oo in the name.

Wondering about starting letter popularity ? Here is the number of sales by starting letter:

a 60
b 35
c 39
d 32
e 33
f 29
g 14
h 7
i 23
j 13
k 14
L 18
M 37
N 13
O 32
P 35
Q 8
R 18
S 62
T 36
U 12
V 43
W 18
X 7
Y 16
Z 26

The most popular letter being S, followed by A and surprisingly V. I thought N and R would have been more popular for starting letters.

Only 48 of the 680 sales were 4 letters, 5 letters came in at 136. 6 letter names seem to be one of the most popular lengths in domains sold so far on the site.

Full list of sales http://tldinvestors.com/2013/07/brand-bucket-sales-inside-the-numbers.html

 

[equity78]

Ah, no problem!

But, I think you are misunderstanding my question.

My question is not what is the maximum price I could sell for; it is not what is the value of the domain.

It is how do people decide what to price brandables domains at.

That person may have gotten $8,000 because they asked for that much and someone fell in love with it - that simple. I completely accept that it isn't 100% science, but has a lot of art and chance to it.

But that being said, when you have 1,000 domains that have sold and even 40% of them have something in common and are priced similarly, this can form a pattern to look for. I am sure that Brand Bucket uses lots of data to determine pricing - and a lot of subjectiveness! I just want to understand how others do it better.

I should also add that there are FAR more outliers in LLLL.com because it could be the letters belonging to a huge company. Due to stuff like this, I would NEVER lock myself into a formula.

But doesn't every use guiding principals in conjunction with subjective instinct when pricing?

I am just hoping to uncover more of that.

I think it comes down to who you are, everyone knows Adam Dicker, when I first did that post, I was talking with Adam because I work with him on some stuff, now Adam owns one word generic .coms like Planets.com and Worm.com and Mistress.com. When I told him the sales prices he could not believe it, he told me he would not have paid $10. So different people value these things differently.

 

[svede]

Thanks equity!

That is exactly what I am talking about. Looking at stats to help assess what to price something at. There will always be outliers and money left or never gotten, but seeing where stuff sells and what makes them sell at those pricepoints can help a lot. I think the key is to always keep an open mind and never lock yourself to a formula - I completely admit that gut instinct is huge here - perhaps even more so than traditional domaining (although I find that is huge there, too).

Thanks!

 

[svede]

I think it comes down to who you are, everyone knows Adam Dicker, when I first did that post, I was talking with Adam because I work with him on some stuff, now Adam owns one word generic .coms like Planets.com and Worm.com and Mistress.com. When I told him the sales prices he could not believe it, he told me he would not have paid $10. So different people value these things differently.

Yes, there are a lot of people that look down upon brandable domains because they have less "inherent" value and their value (if unsold) can change with the trends... no question, they are much higher risk and not as strong overall... but I still like it and it personally appeals to me, which is why I am moving into more of that area from the traditional keyword domaining that I have done in the past. I like the entrepreneurial spirit and way of thinking as well as enjoy linguistics immensely.

Thanks!

 

[ResoluteDomains]

I did do a breakdown of that awhile back Svede when Brand Bucket produced stats and had some helpful info added by @hookbox
........................................................

The most popular letter being S, followed by A and surprisingly V. I thought N and R would have been more popular for starting letters.

Only 48 of the 680 sales were 4 letters, 5 letters came in at 136. 6 letter names seem to be one of the most popular lengths in domains sold so far on the site.

Full list of sales http://tldinvestors.com/2013/07/brand-bucket-sales-inside-the-numbers.html

Is there an updated list of brandable sales figures for 2014 onward anyway out there?

 

[equity78]

Is there an updated list of brandable sales figures for 2014 onward anyway out there?

Brand Bucket stopped publishing their sales.

 

[Serengeti]

Thank's to All, Great insight and thoughful ideas

 

[Domainace]

Looking at that earlier list of BrandBucket sales, I would not have paid reg fee for 80 or 90% of those names. That's how subjective branding is (at least at those xxxx price levels). Conversely, you can pick up a brandable here at NP for $10 or $20 and sell it for $2000 a 6 months later when a buyer contacts you. That's how much it depends on random timing.

If I think a brand might appeal to a large company, I leave it unpriced. I find that the buyers will contact you directly when they want a name - and I prefer to get a feel for the buyer before pricing.

If I'm feeling impatient, I will put up a BIN of something between $2000 and $8000. If I have lost faith in a brandable, I will reduce the BIN to $500-$800.

The thing is, I'm not at all sure that the reduced price makes it sell faster. When someone buys my brandable for $800, I look at their website when it goes up. In many of those cases, they could have paid much more. They might have snapped the BIN if it was $2500 rather than $500, without thinking twice. If it was priced at $9500, they might have tried to contact me to see if they could knock it down a bit. If it was unpriced, they probably wold have made an offer or at least inquired.

The more you talk to the potential buyer, the more you learn about who they are and how badly they want the name. That gives you a chance to price it accordingly.

All that said, when I add a xxxx BIN, I do so because that's the range you most see at Brand Bucket and those places. I figure they have a handle on the prices that maximize sales, so that's good enough for me. (I see no reason to actually list a name with their service though.)

Brandable are weird because so many of them are worth zero or reg fee - until they sell for XXXX to an end-user. Obvious brands, like skypilot, airwave, or words with meaning don't apply to this rule. But the made up ones do.

Last point is that I don't think end users much care whether a name is 5 letters or 8 letters. Or 10 letters. Shortness only seems to affect value at 4 letters and less, and even that is primarily domainer driven.

 

[kawalsukhi]

The best example to use for this discussion would be BrandBucket because they have the most names listed (almost 10,000) and have had daily sales for the past 6 or 7 years. The reason it's good to break down their pricing structure is because it is a proven business model and to analyze that model makes sense.

BB has 9971 domains listed of which only 300 names are listed below $1,000. Out of these 300 names about 90% are listed between $900-$1000. So only a very few are under 900 bucks. But this grouping of 300 names only equals less than 1/3 of 1% of the total domains listed at BB.

Between the price of $1,025-$2,500 is their sweet spot. About 6700 names are listed in this range which is about 67% of all domains listed. Basically 7 out of every 10 domains are listed in this range. Understanding a companies sweet spot is very good info to know. Remember it's a proven business model.

Between the price of $2,525-$5,000 there are about 2400 names which is about 24% of all names listed at BB.

Around 8% are priced above $5,,000. These 8% would be all of the overpriced .ly libyan domains they added and most of the 4 letter domains.

All of this info may sound like nonsense but it helps to give a really good baseline of where you need to be in your pricing structure.

I know I didn't directly answer your question but this is good food for thought until I have time to add more later.

Great analysis!! Love to read that!!

 

[svede]

Looking at that earlier list of BrandBucket sales, I would not have paid reg fee for 80 or 90% of those names. That's how subjective branding is (at least at those xxxx price levels). Conversely, you can pick up a brandable here at NP for $10 or $20 and sell it for $2000 a 6 months later when a buyer contacts you. That's how much it depends on random timing.

If I think a brand might appeal to a large company, I leave it unpriced. I find that the buyers will contact you directly when they want a name - and I prefer to get a feel for the buyer before pricing.

If I'm feeling impatient, I will put up a BIN of something between $2000 and $8000. If I have lost faith in a brandable, I will reduce the BIN to $500-$800.

The thing is, I'm not at all sure that the reduced price makes it sell faster. When someone buys my brandable for $800, I look at their website when it goes up. In many of those cases, they could have paid much more. They might have snapped the BIN if it was $2500 rather than $500, without thinking twice. If it was priced at $9500, they might have tried to contact me to see if they could knock it down a bit. If it was unpriced, they probably wold have made an offer or at least inquired.

The more you talk to the potential buyer, the more you learn about who they are and how badly they want the name. That gives you a chance to price it accordingly.

All that said, when I add a xxxx BIN, I do so because that's the range you most see at Brand Bucket and those places. I figure they have a handle on the prices that maximize sales, so that's good enough for me. (I see no reason to actually list a name with their service though.)

Brandable are weird because so many of them are worth zero or reg fee - until they sell for XXXX to an end-user. Obvious brands, like skypilot, airwave, or words with meaning don't apply to this rule. But the made up ones do.

Last point is that I don't think end users much care whether a name is 5 letters or 8 letters. Or 10 letters. Shortness only seems to affect value at 4 letters and less, and even that is primarily domainer driven.

Thanks for this great and thorough write-up - it has some invaluable information from your experience.

To me, part of pricing is also to know when you don't want to put a BIN on a domain. That being said, from what I have read from others, most brandables tend to sell better with a BIN than without (unless you are willing to wait 5+ years potentially). The obvious exception is super premiums, but I guess those are the ones you don't put a BIN on.

Also, I believe there will always be times when we look back and think "I could have made more". But that is true in all of domaining (even if it is more true here due to the lack of strict rules) and I prefer to domain without regrets. I remind myself that for every one I have like that, there is one where I could have made a lot less and am shocked I found a buyer at that price. Additionally, BINs don't have to be set it stone. Like you said, if you lose faith in it, you can lower the price until it sells. It goes there other way too, though - if you keep regretting the price you sell at, just raise your prices so you don't keep feeling that way. Then if sales stop, you will know that you were pricing them right and if they continue, you have now increased your profits. That is part of the fun to me - I liked the experimenting and learning the market.

Thanks again!!

 

[dncafe]

Not the brandable that Brand Bucket sells, but what a guy like Mike Berkens does.

Can you explain this, I'm not familiar with how Mike sells.

 

[equity78]

Can you explain this, I'm not familiar with how Mike sells.

Meaning he does not really do any business with M.U.P.S. but rather two words together that make a brandable like his recent sale of Super Seats.com for $48,000.

 

[ResoluteDomains]

Meaning he does not really do any business with M.U.P.S. but rather two words together that make a brandable like his recent sale of Super Seats.com for $48,000.

He really does have a gift for selling those two-worders for good amounts!

 

[dncafe]

Meaning he does not really do any business with M.U.P.S. but rather two words together that make a brandable like his recent sale of Super Seats.com for $48,000.

Interesting how BrandBucket (if I remember correctly) started out only selling made up words and actually said that they would never list keyword names or 2 word names, now their marketplace is full of them.

I think they're diluting their appeal for the marketplace by doing this.

You see names on there like, R*I*G*H*T*ACRE.com, T*U*R*B*O*AMP.com, S*W*I*P*E*CITY.com, C*L*I*C*K*DUCK.com....I just don't see the value in these.

 

[ResoluteDomains]

Interesting how BrandBucket (if I remember correctly) started out only selling made up words and actually said that they would never list keyword names or 2 word names, now their marketplace is full of them.

I think they're diluting their appeal for the marketplace by doing this.

You see names on there like, R*I*G*H*T*ACRE.com, T*U*R*B*O*AMP.com, S*W*I*P*E*CITY.com, C*L*I*C*K*DUCK.com....I just don't see the value in these.

I agree. Its not what they were originally known to list.

 

[campout]

There is a logic to pricing brandables. I follow BrandBucketDomains on Twitter, where they announce each and every domain when it is initially published but do not include the price in the tweet. I am able to do a pretty good job of guessing the approximate price. After I guess, I click the link in the tweet to check how close I got.

You just have to learn this new language -- kind of a mutation of English which plays on the non-linear side of the brain. In the case of totally made up words, it is totally non-linear. In the case of branded rootwords, the non-linearity is like a cherry on top (or a vine encircling) the linear platform of the root.

Value of rootword brandables obviously pings off the value of the rootword.

Value of totally made-up is more connected to length and many more effervescent qualities.

Except effervescent does not mean what I am using it to say there

You can train yourself to approximately predict how Margot will value these names.

Or, go read a page of Finnegans Wake and then look at BrandBucket afterward and you will think you're looking at 2 + 2 = 4 written on a chalkboard.

 

[svede]

Thanks that is great input!

Also, I saw this posted in another thread, but i have been trying to find this sort of data myself for referencing what startups are using for names:
http://dngeek.com/2015/04/newly-funded-startups-and-their-domain-names-week-16/

Hope that helps!

 

[dncafe]

Let's take a look at some Brand Bucket type brandables that sold this week on Sedo

How do you think most people are finding these names, is it through Sedo or is there external marketing to their Sedo listing?

 

[equity78]

How do you think most people are finding these names, is it through Sedo or is there external marketing to their Sedo listing?

On Sedo I would imagine that it is either someone had the name parked at Sedo, buyer typed in the name and then clicked the link it may be for sale. I do like Sedo adding the price if you have it listed as a buy it now listing.