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How to claim for non payment for a domain name

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@namesilo

I need to research any methods I can use to claim for the non payment by Name Silo of a name sold through their market place. It is now 2 months since the name was sold, and they refuse to trace the payment or to pay via an alternative to Swift ( Bitcoin for example). I have requested a proof of payment via an M103 document, and they completely ignore this request.

Are there any simple legal methods I can use to recover these funds. I am in the UK, and Name Silo is in the US. Can ICANN or Verisign help in this matter?
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
GoDaddyGoDaddy
they refuse to trace the payment of to pay via an alternative to Swift ( Bitcoin for example).

What are you trying to say?
 
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@namesilo

I need to research any methods I can use to claim for the non payment by Name Silo of a name sold through their market place. It is now 2 months since the name was sold, and they refuse to trace the payment or to pay via an alternative to Swift ( Bitcoin for example). I have requested a proof of payment via an M103 document, and they completely ignore this request.

Are there any simple legal methods I can use to recover these funds. I am in the UK, and Name Silo is in the US. Can ICANN or Verisign help in this matter?
Apologies for the inconvenience and the frustrating experience you've faced on this matter.

We can confirm that the payment for your marketplace sale was sent via wire to the bank details you provided, and we have already shared our bankโ€™s proof of payment with you multiple times. We have also opened a formal trace request with our bank to investigate where the funds are in the SWIFT chain, and we are currently waiting on their response. In cases like this, your own bank is typically best positioned to see incoming SWIFT messages, identify any holds, and advise you on the status of the wire on their side.

We understand you requested an MT103; we have relayed this request to our bank and will forward any documentation they provide as soon as we receive it. Unfortunately, we cannot resend the same payment via an alternative method (such as cryptocurrency) while the original wire is still in transit or under investigation, as that would effectively duplicate the payout.

We remain committed to helping resolve this and will continue working with our bank and providing you with any information we receive. If your bank can share any reference or error details they see on their side, weโ€™ll be happy to use that to press our bank for further clarification.
 
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@jberryhill

Sorry that should read "or" not "of". I'm pretty stressed about this situation, as Ive spent days on it, and got nowhere.
 
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@namesilo

I'm sorry that I have had to use the forums to try to resolve this matter. You have not sent me a proof of payment, and the details that you sent do not constitute a proof of payment. There are two intermediate banks, and my bank is not able to initiate a trace, it has to cone from your bank. It seems that the only way that I can get a response other than a "Hi, how can I help you" reply after a detailed message by me. It is not true that you have sent me many messages with payment details. Early in January you stated on a few times that payment had been mad, but when you eventually sent me alleged details of the payment, it was dated the 22nd of January. I received those details as a stated second message. but the claimed first message contained a link to my namepros thread, and not the details. This was another occasion when I had to resort to the boards to get a support reply. I know the Swift system and US banks are archaic, but does it really take weeks to get any responses or action.

Google's quote on obtaining a M103

An MT103 document (SWIFT confirmation) usually takes 1 to 5 business days to obtain from a traditional bank, as they often do not provide it automatically and require a manual request. Some banks or fintech services may provide it within a few hours, while others might take up to a week.
 
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Sounds like Namesilo made the payment.

AML requires all contact information to be identical. I've seen them get kickedback/heldup for this, or address discrepancies.

Go to your bank with their tx proof & see what your bank can find.

GL
 
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@namesilo

I'm sorry that I have had to use the forums to try to resolve this matter. You have not sent me a proof of payment, and the details that you sent do not constitute a proof of payment. There are two intermediate banks, and my bank is not able to initiate a trace, it has to cone from your bank. It seems that the only way that I can get a response other than a "Hi, how can I help you" reply after a detailed message by me. It is not true that you have sent me many messages with payment details. Early in January you stated on a few times that payment had been mad, but when you eventually sent me alleged details of the payment, it was dated the 22nd of January. I received those details as a stated second message. but the claimed first message contained a link to my namepros thread, and not the details. This was another occasion when I had to resort to the boards to get a support reply. I know the Swift system and US banks are archaic, but does it really take weeks to get any responses or action.

Google's quote on obtaining a M103
Yes, I understand your frustration; we are doing our best to resolve this matter for you as well. Our Customer Support team confirmed that the wire information was provided over email on January 29th, and I asked them to re-send again. We have also followed up with our bank once more for confirmation.
 
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I think there is some confusion about the function of the Swift system. It is not a payment system, but is an interbank payment facilitation service. Basically, it is a messaging service between bank to allow banks to make a transfer of funds. It doesn't transfer the funds itself. There are a variety of transports, and the M103 transport is the one used for payment to and from the general public. It is not possible for the receiver to trace payment. Alternative payment services such as Visa or natiional single currency payments are far easier to trace. For example, I am with the Nationwide in the UK. This is a building society, and is subject to extra control by the UK government. This gives me extra security, and better interest rates. For example, one of my savings accounts pay an interest rate of 6.5%, which is good for an instant access savings account. In addition, I can make a Sterling transfer to another UK bank in under a minute, and the funds are available immediately for the recipient. This is via the "Faster payments" system. I believe there is a similar system for dollar payments within the US. These systems don't work for currency exchanges of cross border transactions.

Many years ago, I was an active domainer, and promoted various sponsors via affiliate and other links. I found that the only effective way to receive payments was via a cheque, and I posted this the CitiBank in london for credit to a dollar account that i had with them. This was free as long as I maintained a balance of $5,000. They changed this, and required a monthly fee to maintain this account. As a result of this, I closed the account, and temporarily used an Ebay check cashing service whilst I wound down this business. I then only accepted Bitcoin in payment. Dollar payments were made using my Visa credit card. I sold a domain on the Name silo market place to another Name Pros member ( CryptoBounty.com ), and there is a thread about this here, as I forgot it was for sale, and I think I undervalued it. However, Name Silo paid me promplly in Bitcoin, and I suspect I have done well out of this sale.

There are a number of issues with this latest escrow service problem.

- Why did it take around a month to initiate payment, when there is no warning of this for service users.
- Why does Name Silo seem to pretend that its responses are AI generated, they have stated that they don't use AI, but many responses seem to emulate AI or automated replies. If one sends enough support request, then one can elicit a response stating the inquiry has been escalated to the financial team.
- I appreciate that my constant requests for informatiion may be annoying for NS, but to date, I have spent many days online researching the Swift system, and the resolution of International payment problems. I have also spent almost 3 hours on the phone to Nationwide, and I took the time to visit my local branch to discuss this problem with the manager.
- Most of my contact with the financial department has resulted in confrontational and belittling comments, and this was an observation by my bank manager when he read the emails. This is not helpful when I am trying to pursue a debt that has not been paid, and an explanation of the delay has not been provided.
- in my opinion it is not my responsibility to check on a payment when I have paid $300 for that service. NameSilo owes me the Sterling equivalent of $3,700, and I have had to wait over two months, and I have not received payment, and have not been provided with an adequate explanation of this failure and delay.
- Name Silo has made many inaccurate statements about this problem, and they appear to be attempting to belittle me, and make me appear uncooperative and incompetent. I believe that this description sits more comfortably of the shoulders of Name Silo, than on my shoulders. For example, they stated that they had sent me details of the payment, but in fact they sent me details of the URL for my Name Silo post that pushed them to reply.

../
Apologies, I'm in a cafe on public Wifi, and I've run out of parking. I'll continue this in a following post.
 
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/..
It seems to be taking an enormous amount of time to keep posting and repeating details. Especially as i am posting about this problem in 4 forums, and may add more. Name Pros seems to be the most effective forum, and I am grateful to the owners for maintaining such a good resource for domainers.

I think I should reiterate a few key facts.
-> I still haven't received payment, and it is now two months after the transfer of the name.
-> I doin't dispute the limited details sent by Name Silo, and I am sure they have sent the money. Their bank would have reject the transaction if they didn't have the funds.
-> I haven't received an adequate explanation for the delay in initiating the payment.
-> They owe me the money, and it is their responsibility to ensure that I receive if if I provide correct banking details.
-> It is not possible for the receiver to track a Swift payment, or so my bank informs me.
-> Name Silo has consistently refused to attempt to track the payment, and insist that I do this. I assume that this is because they don't understand the Swift system. This is surprising for a registrar claiming to manage over 5 million names.
-> They don't seem to know what a M103 document is, despite my requesting this on several occasions. It is a legally recognised proof of payment, and contains details of any delays or refusals in the transfer.
-> Name Silo is ignoring my request for a refund of the escrow fee of $300. I feel that this is the least they could offer in view of the massive inconvenience I have suffered.
-> I feel that there is a possibility that I am the victim of Trump's weaponising of the Swift system, or some other reason caused by the decline of the US banking system. Ultimately this is Name Silo's problem, as they have chosen the payment system, and I am prepared to accept a more secure and efficient system. This is Bitcoin.
-> I am concerned for my reputation in view of the false statements they have made, and the aggressive attacks on me.
-> I fell vulnerable, as i have over 250 domains registered through them. This is down from the over 3,000 I had a few years ago, but it still represents a significant investment for me/
 
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@namesilo

Still no sign of the payment. I've done some research for you, and I've found this page which describes how to deal with a failed payment. Unfortunately you will have to process this, as neither I nor my bank can access the information.
https://www.airwallex.com/ca/blog/f...ayment-what-to-do-when-transfer-doesnt-arrive

How are you getting on with the request for the M103 document?
This is one paragraph that may be relevant - have you any transactions that may trigger an anti money laundering check?
Compliance screening creates another failure point. Financial institutions must screen against Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) and other government lists โด. When your payment triggers compliance alerts โ€“ perhaps due to name similarities or transaction patterns โ€“ it enters a review queue that can delay or block the transfer entirely.

I will check the details relating my account once again, but I feel it unlikely that there is a problem, as Nationwide has not received any payment of the approximate value during the relevant time frame. The M103 document will contain details of the exact amount in Sterling that my bank can expect to receive. Once I have that figure, I can request a broader search in their receipts.
 
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@jberryhill

Once again I am grateful for you pointing out my error. Unfortunately it is too late for me to correct this. The correct reference for the Swift payment confirmation document is MT103. I seem to have read a large number of documents relating to the Swift system, and I think the first one I read contained the incorrect reference. That seemed to have stayed in my brain, and I apologise to my readers for this error.

I think this highlights the problems we simple users of the archaic and cumbersome Swift system encounter. Not even the bankers seem to understand it. I tended to think of it as a replacement for the old cheque system. You owed someone some money, and you sent them a cheque. This was either cashed or returned for some reason. This could be as a result of incorrect details or lack of funds. If the payment failed, then it was incumbent on the issuer to discover the reason, and to find an alternative method of payment. In this case it seems I am being vilified and told to discover the reason for the failure. I have checked the details I provided, and these include My bank name and address, my name and account number, and that is about it. The IBAN number includes my account number, and is correct in the limited details Name Silo sent to me. Other details appear to be correct relating to the receipt of the money. I'm not sure what I can do to trace this payment, and I feel it is the responsibility of the sender to ensure that he uses a viable method. Attacking and vilifying me does little to resolve the issue.

If I have made an error, the surely the system should have flagged this and returned the funds. That raises another point - if Swift is just a messaging system, then where are the funds? It seems they will not be in the Swift system, but in the banking payment chain created by the Swift system.
 
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That raises another point - if Swift is just a messaging system, then where are the funds?

There can be some interesting things which happen to wire transfers. One of my larger escrow deals was an $11M portfolio purchase involving several thousand domain names, with the seller in Australia and a purchaser (Demand Media) in California, and two intermediary banks. Disbursements were made in stages as names were transferred from various registrar accounts, but at one point a $5M wire transfer simply appeared to evaporate, and did not come out the other end for four days. When I initiated a trace, there was a delay of two more days, and I did not get a clear answer other than an unexplained silence between the first and second intermediary banks.

What I was eventually led to believe by an officer of my bank was that there are circumstances under which the US Treasury Department can incur an investigatory delay, and that the banks involved cannot tell you that there is a potential money laundering inquiry being looked into. After a total of around seven business days, the payment showed up at the other end, but it was a pretty tense week, since I had no idea that much money could simply disappear into a black hole like that.

I was apparently under investigation for a while since, at one point in time I was receiving a monthly retainer from Uniregistry in Cayman by wire, and around the same time of the month I was sending an allowance to my stepdaughter, who was away at college. My wife had kept her own surname through her first and second marriages, so her daughter did not have either her surname or mine. One day, I received a call from my bank who had some "questions about recent transactions". They asked me about the monthly payment "from the Cayman Islands" and I said that was a client on retainer, and then asked me "Who is [name of my stepdaughter]?". Apparently, they had flagged the fact that I was receiving a payment from abroad which appeared linked to a payment to a woman who did not share either my surname or that of my wife. I don't know what they were thinking, but I got pretty stoked when they asked that question with an air of "we know what you've been up to."

In answer to your question about "legal options" the general reality of these sorts of things is that undertaking any sort of legal action in the US is not worthwhile for transactions of this size unless you are physically present in a jurisdiction where you can pursue your own small claims cases. If you swindle someone out of $75,001, that's the threshold where they can file in federal court, and the FBI might be interested, but if you swindle 75,000 people out of $1 a piece, you're going to be fine, as a practical matter.

To hire a lawyer to file a lawsuit for you in the US, you are generally looking at writing a check for anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 for starters, depending on the case. We do not have a "loser pays" system in the US, so, sure, you can easily spend $40,000 to successfully get through a lawsuit against someone who ripped you off for $5,000.

That's why, in general, most of the "I'm looking for someone to sue [insert registrar]" threads at Namepros are pretty much non-starters.

The problem is that people in the US are familiar with personal injury attorneys who advertise "we don't get paid unless you get paid" or they hear about people winning high dollar amounts in personal injury lawsuits. That's an entirely different world from commercial disputes. If you fall down in a grocery store and break your arm, that store has insurance. The insurance is going to cut a check for $X, to settle the suit. Personal injury lawyers know how much insurers pay for what kinds of injuries, so they can quickly get that check written and take a 40% cut of it.

But if the dispute is something like breach of contract for $5000. Then you are usually playing for $5000, total. There's no pain and suffering, ongoing trauma, etc., to deal with and no outrageous medical bills.

Incidentally, those medical bills are why ordinary injuries end up being lawsuits in the US, but not in countries with rational medical systems, because (a) the store customers have medical insurance, and (b) the store has liability insurance. If a customer is injured in the store, then the customer's medical insurance says "We're not paying your bills, because the store has insurance". The store's insurer says, "We're not paying your bills, because you had a pre-exising or later injury, and your medical problems weren't caused by the fall". So, both insurance companies require the parties to sue each other - not to determine which party pays, but to determine which insurance company has to pay. But that's why everyone gets the impression that Americans are always suing one another for minor things, because most other advanced countries don't use this ridiculous system to figure out who pays medical bills.

But this one falls into the bucket of "I've been ripped off for $3750, but it's going to cost me at least $10k to do anything about it".
 
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Many thanks for that interesting post. :)

Well, it's now Monday, and there is no trace of the payment. In addition, there is no trace of the MT103 document that I was promised. I'm really saddened by this, as I have been a strong supporter of Name Silo, and I have been happy with their service for many years. The appalling support for this non payment for an escrow service has knocked me back. In addition, I have had no response for the several requests for the refund of the $300 escrow fee. Normally when a supplier is unable to provide a service, then any fee is refunded. I have asked for this to be credited to my Name Silo, but have had no response to this. Of course, I removed the few name that I had in the NS market place.

I have also been experimenting with Unstoppable Domains following the suggestion by a Name Pros member, and so far it looks as if it is a great registrar. I haven't had a chance to research all the facilities that they offer, but it looks as if there are a few that will be useful to me. I moved 4 names to them as an experiment, and I applied for membership of their domainer club. They have approved this, so it looks as if i can renew names at half the price charged by my existing registrar. There is a one year restriction on the further transfer of these names, and I need to consider how this will affect the sale of names in the future. I can see one obvious work around, so I suspect this may not be a problem.

I guess one result of this escrow no payment is that it has revived my interest in my reduced domain name collection. I have got a few that have become topical such as RobotBanker ( I think this would be good to highlight Swift problems and the use of Bitcoin), and NewCarOwner ( great to discuss the problems with wood burning EVs and the remote bricking of new cars). I'm 83, and I had hoped to retire, but a good fight always seems to revive me, however this NS business seems to be non productive and damaging to all parties concerned - these include Name Silo, me, Swift, the US dollar and the NS bank. Hopefully we can clear this up in the near future, but I can't do this without some support from Name Silo.

Now I need to stay away from the fun of looking through the lists on expired domains until I have sorted out my existing portfolio.
 
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@namesilo

Thank you for your helpful post, and your offer, and it looks as if we might be getting somewhere in an attempt to resolve this issue. It seems the funds were returned and the reason given was "treasury only". This seems to cover a multitude of cases, and I am going to join the Swift payment support forum if they will have me. This may give me access to information which appears not to be available to the participating banks, or which they are unwilling to provide. All of my details appear to be correct, and I have no flags on my account. I have also been a member of Nationwide for over 30 years, so KYC is not required. I will post any further information when I receive it.

Once again, thank you for your latest email.
 
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