registries gTLD registries cannot legally change the pricing of renewals at their whim.

[robaireg]

this calls into question whether a domainer is an OWNER or a RENTER. (legally speaking) do you know? do you care to know? (I do) ...

if a gTLD registry (new extension administrator, ie: famous 4 media, donuts, uniregistry, or any of 12 other big ones) were able to change the annual pricing on ''selected domains'' that they personally felt were now ''premium'' (but weren't at the point of purchase) it would be the worst kind of business extortion. it would be predation. it would also be 100% illegal.

when you buy a domain you don't get an email saying ''thank you for renting this domain on a year to year basis'' ... you get an email saying ''thank you for your purchase''.

a purchase is where you buy something and then you own it. if someone administers a domain extension they do not own the domains they administer. ask ICANN about this and read the application that the registry submitted in order to run that domain, the ''serve the public with total and ongoing integrity language'' there is a lot of that language because public trust was a dominant factor in ICANN's awarding any extension ...

neither do they have any legal right to ''shake out'' owners from whom they would now like to ''steal back'' selected domains that they wish to own for themselves. the only way they could steal back domains from the rightful owners would be to massively raise the renewals on those selected domains. ANY court should see through such a transparent scam.

that would amount to theft plain and simple. so it gets back to the question- do you OWN your domain or do you rent it? from what I see all the language points to the fact you own it. the renewal fees are supposedly there to cover all admin expenses by the registrar ....and for a sweetener, ICANN ... ALLOWED THEM to set a premium price in selected products at the initial sale point. ONLY.

this is deemed legal because the buyer knows in advance what the yearly renewal will be, and ''caveat emptor''... if you don't like that fee, don't buy it. BUT ... once it is BOUGHT .....

1) curious that domainers have no national and international association to protect their basic rights. the way say, any other property owner would have such an association.
2) I propose the ..... DOMAINER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION. an international body with the sole purpose of looking after the legal rights of domain OWNERS. (not renters) funded by modest dues, say $ 5 per year for every domain owner deductible on the 1st purchase.

I saw the thread today where the q. is asked whether gTLD registries should be able to arbitrarily ''reset'' the renewal rates on any domain they see fit to ''steal back''. (because it would have just one purpose and that would be to steal it back)

the answer is no, that is 100% illegal and predatory. you cannot do stuff like that in a democratic society, otherwise you'd have legal extortion and theft. ''steal it by jacking the fee 10000%, and then give it to your buddies at the former cheap price again'' ..... . NO that is 100% illegal. and if they missed a ''good name'' that they 'should '' have made premium, then it is their omission, not the buyers.

I have heard instances of fee-price ''resets'' for say NN's... but only at the point of purchase, the day of purchase or 1 or 2 days after ... where the legal wording was already in place about the premium value of those domains.

in that case it was a tech-glitch that allowed those names through to sale at the regular price. but ... once it is bought and has a new OWNER ..... an owner not a renter ..... no way can you legally steal something back by resetting the annual fee at your own whim ..... . courts would (SHOULD) laugh at this, it is so predatory and transparently illegal.

domainers .... associate. band together. $5/yr. is not much. & it's overdue.

 

[robaireg]

.... looking at the Berkens article and quoting George (who actually went into the small print legalese and tried to make sense of it, a remarkable thing) there is a requirement on the part of the isssuing domain registry that it has to inform the buyer - via the registrar (the actual vendor) and via an ICANN letter) of any proposed increase to the original reg fee with a 6 MONTH NOTICE.

at that time the option would be given to the owner to renew 10 years in advance at that original rate. (after which it would presumably be ''OK'' to raise the rate to ''anything'' .. .which translates to legal confiscation.

this is very problematic, legally. .... it does not have a clean legal feel to it, in fact it smells bad. (legal bad smell)

the main pt is that you cannot build a business model on a 10-year window, which then turns to quicksand. 10 years seems like a lot to domainers but to banks and lending sources it is miniscule ... they often do 30 year loans (or longer in the case of company bonds).

so to say the renew price could be anything the registry decides on in even 10 years time is a quicksand business platform. the whole legal language of that contract is deceptive and unclear.
_______________

in fact the only correct time to set a renewal rate is at the point of purchase, no other time. when they offer the product to the public, the onus is on them (the issuing registry) to spot the values and price accordingly. if they fail to do that, the customer should not be held responsible for their mistake.
_______________

Verisign charges the owners of house.com 10 dollars same as the owner of zxcvbnm.com if they wanted to go back and reset the rate they would be sued immediately. but if they set a premium rate originally that's a whole different story.

 

[DNabc]

I don't have many new gtld, but if they play with this "increase to the original reg fee with a 6 MONTH NOTICE" on any of mine I will not renew and will create an awareness campaign.
Imagine this happening on a fully-developed website? How could you sustain going from $50 to $50,000? Such instability isn't good for them as well, don't squeeze your customers.

 

[loupe]

Guys, as per the ICANN agreement with new gtld operators if they wish to increase the fee then registrant is notified and is given a chance to renew up to 10 years for the old fee. This has been discussed on various known domainer blogs and even here.

(In the past a few registrars made a mistake when roling out new domains by setting reg fee instead of premium reg fee as determined by registry)

This is not anymore the beginning of .com when people still had difficulties spelling the word "internet". The domain industry is mature and evolving much faster than 10 - 20 years ago where one could pick up domains for nothing and hope for the best.

 

[brindle123]

It only says that you have to be given notice that there is going to be a price increase!!!

They can increase the renewal across the board for everyone owning a domain in the extension not just the premium domains. That % of renewal increase is not stated.

They don't have to increase the renewal 1000% to make it unreasonable to own the domain.
Yes you have the option to renew for 10yrs but why would you if after that 10yrs your renewal will be something you or anyone you might sell the domain to won't want to pay.

My math sucks but here I go:

If you buy a .cars for $2000 a yr now(2016) and you are given notice of a 10% increase in price effective in (2017), that's a $200 increase per yr. So in 2017 the new reg will be $2200. That can go up in 2017 another 10% (or whatever%). At 25% it could be $2500 renewal.

If you do the 10yr reg you are locked in at $2000. If you don't do the 10yr reg you are subject to any % increase they feel like just as long as you are given notice of an increase in price. In 5 yrs

2016 renewal cost per year is $2000 (At end of 2016 you get notice of 10% increase to $2200)
2017 renewal cost per year $2200 (At end of 2017 you get notice of 10% increase to $2420)
2018 renewal cost per year $2420 (At end of 2018 you get notice of 10% increase to $2662)
2019 renewal cost per year $2662 (At end of 2019 you get notice of 10% increase to $2928.20)
2020 renewal cost per year $2928.20 (At end of 2020 you get notice of 10% increase to $3221.02)

So in 5yrs with only a 10% increase you will be paying over $3000 a yr.
Now if that increase is 20% one yr and 10% another, then 25% the next, things can get very pricey very fast. So pay the $20000 now for the domain or give it back!
Do the numbers for a 25% increase yr after yr and things get crazy.

You are not given notice of the renewal cost 5 yrs from now, only what your next renewal will be.
It doesn't have to be very large increases in % renewal fees to start adding up to something your average domainer can't afford. This is an example of an expensive domain, but even domains at $30yr renewals can add up fast without renewal % price caps.
You can be given notice of a 5% increase or a 50% increase. The only thing you have to be notified of is that there will be an increase of (x%) for your next renewal.

I think I'm starting to confuse myself with this posting.
My main point is just that your renewal costs are only set in stone at the time of renewal.
At anytime they can change. You don't have to pay the new renewal % change until you renew.
What that % of increase is unknown until you are give notice of it.

 

[robaireg]

there could definitely be racketeering law involved if the ICANN colludes together with Registries to hugely jack-up the price of domains arbitrarily (at their own discretion and choice) - AFTER the point of the original sale (that is a key) in order to essentially ...CONFISCATE a product that was sold.

legally this clause is very suspect and contentious. it should never hold up in any court of law.

I'm going to have to quote myself here after posting this in the related thread.

it's good to distill the legalities into clear bite-size chunks and understand what went on with the agreement between ICANN and the new TLD registries like Donuts, Famous4 and the others.

so they have a ''clause'' where the registries are allowed to massively raise the price of renewals for any domains they now consider ''premium'' (but didn't before the sale) .

this is after the point of sale and entirely at the discretion of that registrar. the clause appears to say (so far I'm going on George's explanation from the < Berkens article > on this) that thy will give the domain owner 6 months notice of this increase in renewal fees, and a 10 year option to renew the domain at the original selling price.

after which the new massive increase goes into effect. it's pretty much agreed that such an increase would completely destroy any business plan upon which this domain would be based.

I'm pretty certain that racketeering law comes into play here. in other words, you cannot just decide to confiscate someones product just because you have a clause in the fine print that somehow allows you to massively raise the yearly administrative fee price (OR - even a rental price) for this product. the product was sold and delivered (and the sale money collected) under the assumption of new ownership.

& this is where raising the price this way would effectively put that person or company out of business, and which in this instance it is very clear it would do that and result in a confiscation of that product (a theft-back).

this is definitely a racketeering situation.
____________________

ps. I'd like to see what Chinese law has to say about this, since Chinese investors are very heavily invested in some gTLD's especially ones like -
.top, .club, .wang, ...and a few others.(lately since the Alpnames Chinese site ... .win, .bid also)

the Chinese will have law on this sort of commerce behavior also. this would be very useful to know about.

 

[robaireg]

it's either racketeering, or else it's where the registry goes into direct competition with their own customers in violation of the intention of the registry license as spelled out in their application during the competition process.

...that they will use that extension to serve the public's best interests. ICANN required some real strong guarantees of this at the time, and it's in clear legal language that the registry is committing to serve the public's best interests.

<here is> one of the ''public interest'' documents.

--- '' ICANN and the new TLD program share the following purposes:

1. -to make sure- that the Internet remains as safe, stable and secure as possible, while

2. helping to ensure there is a vibrant competitive marketplace to efficiently bring the benefits of the namespace to registrants and users alike. '' ---

confiscation of a domain at their own discretion by slapping a ''super-premium'' label on it AFTER the point of sale does not fit this model.

 

[robaireg]

''4. Providing a financially robust corporate umbrella under which its new TLDs will be protected and can thrive.''

predatory confiscation of previously sold products does not fit this model.

and even a 10-year grace period before any new massive fee increases (= confiscation) takes effect ... is not conducive to building any kind of business plan whatsoever. you do not build a business with a ''10 year survival plan''.

result: the legal language in that ICANN-registry agreement is ''untested'' and would never hold up.

... & China will have to deal with these ''discretionary premium'' in large numbers and it should be interesting to see what the China law says.

 

[robaireg]

there's also another meaningful tack or angle to take on this

since we're dealing with products that have actual tangible market value.

who has the right to assign a ''premium'' label on a domain after the point of sale, who decided this ... and was there any fair 3rd party input on this.

or is it entirely at the discretion of the registry and why should they have the right to ''re-price'' someone else's product after the point of sale to try and confiscate it back? who gave them exclusive right to this?

racketeering.


..and you could go on with this ...

... '' Donuts firmly believes a capable and skilled organization will operate multiple TLDs and benefit Internet users by:

.... 3. More thoroughly and uniformly executing consumer and rights holder protections.

oh. you really mean this then ... good.

it's in your legal application document, so you must seriously mean this.
(you may be called to back this up at some point ...)

also .... '' ...By applying our array of protection mechanisms, Donuts will make this TLD a place for Internet users that is far safer than existing TLDs. Donuts will strive to operate this TLD with fewer incidences of fraud and abuse than occur in incumbent TLDs. In addition, Donuts commits to work toward a downward trend in such incidents.

this is excellent legal language and it is right in the gTLD application.

 

[robaireg]

quote- ''the Registry'' ... has made every effort to CORRECTLY price its offerings for end-user value PRIOR to launch.

Our objective is to AVOID any disruption to our customers after they have registered.

We do not plan or anticipate significant price increases over time. ... ''

 

[MasterOfMyDomains]

Namecheap.com

Domain Ownership Accepted Notification

Date: 1/20/2016

This notice is to inform you that your selected recipient has accepted your invitation to become the owner of the following domain(s):

How many people contact end users and say " I lease this domain name, would you like to hold the lease?"

We own it, but in reality it's a lease. I can't see comparing apples and oranges to domains.

​

The opinions expressed here by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros ​

 

[Gobinath]

@mwg3kpc
great initiative on this topic.
it is unprofessional way when registry increases the renewal cost, i would say greedy registries. then no point in introducing gtlds to this world,

 

[brindle123]

registries are not greedy
businesses are not greedy
people are not greedy

Oh wait...
registries want to make money
businesses want to make money
people want to make money

greed is in our nature....

This is a huge issue that needs to be resolved by the registries/registrars.

 

[MasterOfMyDomains]

How can the registries/registrars change what is our nature?

 

[brindle123]

You are right they won't change because it's making them lots of your money.
The only way to change it is to not buy into every new gtld that comes out just because we are told that it's the next big thing. At the very least be selective. There seriously is some junk food extensions being feed to us.
But we/domainers won't change because we are greedy by nature and buy into it that we can make tons of cash by picking up all these new gtlds.

Has anyone on here had fees go up and then drop there domains?
Has anyone on here made a lot of money from the new gtlds? I'm sure lots of money has been made.
Has anyone on here emptied out there bank accounts or charged their credit cards up buying into them. I sure they have.

Make money if you can but don't believe all the hype.

This is a huge issue that needs to be resolved by the registries/registrars. They write the contracts we agree/agreed to. Not the other way around!

 

[robaireg]

1) when buying a domain name you are making a purchase not a rental. this is one of the key law points that has to be established as all of domaining rests on this. the owner of house.com owns this domain name, he (she) does not rent it.

2) if he was renting it then it would mean that Verisign (dot-com registry) is the actual owner of it and therefore could use any means to re-obtain it. these means might include - raising the annual registration-renewal fee to exorbidant amounts, basically in order to confiscate it. this would be patently illegal, as it would be an attempt to extort the product from its rightful owner.

3) ownership must be established. the domain owner is the one who pays for it. this has to be 100% clear. all of law stands on things like this, establishing clarity as to the actual legal owner. you cannot stress this enough, legally speaking. establish clear legal ownership.

4) the registry and the ''vendors'' (= the registants like go-daddy and dynadot) are the intermediaries. the owner is the buyer.

5) the reg-fee is not a rental fee. this is paramount (legally) the reg fee is a maintenance fee to defray the cost of the registration renewal.

6) an expensive domain (a high-value one in the market) has the same cost as a cheap domain. they both cost the same to renew.

7) the renewal fee to re-register is a service to ensure that the owner is properly licensed.

8) I hope that registries join the discussion

9) the application submitted to ICANN during the bidding process was and is a legal document and has a lot of weight. it was signed by all of the company's directors and represents their stated intention in how they would carry out their business if they won the right to manage the domain extension.

10) there was lots of competition for the right to manage these extensions, so the applicants made every effort to CONVINCE ICANN that they were going to be the absolute best manager for and to ensure that the public (the new owners of the actual names under those extensions) would be best served and protected.

11) the applications clearly state that domains will be correctly priced PRIOR to their being offered to the general public, and that premium domain names would be ''filtered out'' carefully

12) omissions would be minimal or non-existent. this means that any omissions, for example, prime domain names being missed by this filtering process prior to sale, would be sold fairly and that no adjustments would be made to their renewal fee schedules. this is clearly spelled out in the application documents. it basically says that if the registry puts a valuable name out at regular price it is their mistake and they will be responsible for it.

13) if Walmart sells you a toaster for 5 dollars and then 3 days later comes knocking on your door demanding 30 dollars more because it was ''wrongly priced'' you could legally ask them to leave. the onus is on that seller to correctly price their goods before they put them out for sale. if they sell an item that is worth more than the listed price, then they have to catch that error at the point of sale. the onus is always on the seller to price the product correctly. once the cash is collected, it's a done sale and you cannot go back and ask for more afterwards. this is elementary merchandise law but it has to be repeated until it's very clear.

14) a domain name is merchandise, it is a product. it is SOLD not rented.

more later --->

 

[brindle123]

try to move furniture into house.com JK

No you don't rent the domain.
You do own it. You can sell it or develop it.
You do have to pay a fee every year to own it.
That fee can change.
Don't pay the fee and you don't own it.
It's pretty simple.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

 

[pchip]

Here's an idea. Don't invest money in non established extensions, especially when domains can be tagged as premium, with variable pricing. Far to risky IMO.

 

[Kate]

1) when buying a domain name you are making a purchase not a rental. this is one of the key law points that has to be established as all of domaining rests on this. the owner of house.com owns this domain name, he (she) does not rent it.

Well... if you own a house you still have to pay (land) taxes. If you don't pay, you face eviction and seizure of your property.

The legal status of domain names varies from one country to another. Even from one court to another. Some have ruled that domain names are property, others have ruled the opposite.

 

[robaireg]

try to move furniture into house.com JK No you don't rent the domain.You do own it. You can sell it or develop it. You do have to pay a fee every year to own it. That fee can change.
Don't pay the fee and you don't own it.
It's pretty simple. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

a lot.

for example
1) who set this new fee and what criteria did they use in setting it?
2) were you, as the owner of that property, consulted about it, or was it an arbitrary decision made by a non-owner regarding your owned property?
3) which could seriously impact your use of (and your actual ability to keep owning) that property?

_________________

one of the main points is that you buy a domain partly based on the full knowledge of what your annual reg-fee is. there is clear disclosure.

if that fee changes arbitrarily (and massively) and with no consultation at all, this is where the illegality of it is.

___________________

a renewal fee is basically to maintain the product in the ICANN archives and register. it does not cost anything more.

so any fee increase gets into some very shady intentions, that is, of attempt to confiscate

so the onus is entirely on the vendor to price the product correctly at the point of sale. registries have been given lots of leeway by ICANN to reserve the ''quality'' names and put premium tags on them priced at whatever price they choose, and this is where their leeway is. (don't like it, don't buy it) at least you know the full price, full disclosure.

 

[brindle123]

so any fee increase gets into some very shady intentions, that is, of attempt to confiscate

1) .net fees are going up on Feb 1.
2) .WS just restructured the pricing for 2-3 character domains.

Those are just two price increases posted on this forum in the last 2 days. Don't pay the new price increase for renewals of your .net domains when the time comes and they will not be yours any longer!!

Read the bold answers below to your questions.

1) who set this new fee and what criteria did they use in setting it? They set the fees not us. They only need to give notice of a fee increase not what that increase amount will be!!!
2) were you, as the owner of that property, consulted about it, or was it an arbitrary decision made by a non-owner regarding your owned property? You don't have to be consulted, just given notice!!!
If I was consulted I would say "Hell no don't charge me more." You would say the same.
3) which could seriously impact your use of (and your actual ability to keep owning) that property?
We have all dropped domains due to a fee increase. If you haven't dropped a domain because of a fee increase then you haven't been in this business very long!

 

[DU]

I'm furious about how all this works. I went to make coffee the other morning and the price has gone up AGAIN!
Not only that but they used to be 16oz packs and now they are 12.5oz! And they recommend 1 tablespoon per cup! It used to be per 2 cups!

How much are they going to charge me for my Joe! i can't afford to keep caffeinated!

 

[brindle123]

I was looking at some .tech prices and seemed to get all kinds of different pricing when searching for what was available.

We are going to have a hell of a time selling domains to end users that see this stuff. We can't even figure it out, so the avg person who tries to start a business will always go back to the .com leaving everybody that bought into the new gtld MESS holding onto their LLLL.crap and NNNNN.poop

.WS redoing their pricing to take advantage of us also.

 

[Nanda Dianto]

I ever asked one of Donuts's executive, the worst case is, they will increase, but not more than 15% of the registration price. They also give notification for price increment. I'm not sure about other registries. They have their own policies.

 

[brindle123]

I ever asked one of Donuts's executive, the worst case is, they will increase, but not more than 15% of the registration price. They also give notification for price increment. I'm not sure about other registries. They have their own policies.

Did they saying they hope to or don't think they will or might not go higher than 15%, because language like that is not legally binding.

Is it in writing that it will not go higher than 15%?

 

[Kate]

Even if you think your names are safe, remember what happened to Mike Berkens.
Perhaps the registry won't jack up the price, however you may still see 'errors', clawbacks, or price 'corrections' because some names were priced incorrectly.
Which has the same consequences for you. Icann won't help you.

In this industry, there is a gap between what should be allowed or not, and what actually goes on.