registries gTLD registries cannot legally change the pricing of renewals at their whim.

[robaireg]

this calls into question whether a domainer is an OWNER or a RENTER. (legally speaking) do you know? do you care to know? (I do) ...

if a gTLD registry (new extension administrator, ie: famous 4 media, donuts, uniregistry, or any of 12 other big ones) were able to change the annual pricing on ''selected domains'' that they personally felt were now ''premium'' (but weren't at the point of purchase) it would be the worst kind of business extortion. it would be predation. it would also be 100% illegal.

when you buy a domain you don't get an email saying ''thank you for renting this domain on a year to year basis'' ... you get an email saying ''thank you for your purchase''.

a purchase is where you buy something and then you own it. if someone administers a domain extension they do not own the domains they administer. ask ICANN about this and read the application that the registry submitted in order to run that domain, the ''serve the public with total and ongoing integrity language'' there is a lot of that language because public trust was a dominant factor in ICANN's awarding any extension ...

neither do they have any legal right to ''shake out'' owners from whom they would now like to ''steal back'' selected domains that they wish to own for themselves. the only way they could steal back domains from the rightful owners would be to massively raise the renewals on those selected domains. ANY court should see through such a transparent scam.

that would amount to theft plain and simple. so it gets back to the question- do you OWN your domain or do you rent it? from what I see all the language points to the fact you own it. the renewal fees are supposedly there to cover all admin expenses by the registrar ....and for a sweetener, ICANN ... ALLOWED THEM to set a premium price in selected products at the initial sale point. ONLY.

this is deemed legal because the buyer knows in advance what the yearly renewal will be, and ''caveat emptor''... if you don't like that fee, don't buy it. BUT ... once it is BOUGHT .....

1) curious that domainers have no national and international association to protect their basic rights. the way say, any other property owner would have such an association.
2) I propose the ..... DOMAINER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION. an international body with the sole purpose of looking after the legal rights of domain OWNERS. (not renters) funded by modest dues, say $ 5 per year for every domain owner deductible on the 1st purchase.

I saw the thread today where the q. is asked whether gTLD registries should be able to arbitrarily ''reset'' the renewal rates on any domain they see fit to ''steal back''. (because it would have just one purpose and that would be to steal it back)

the answer is no, that is 100% illegal and predatory. you cannot do stuff like that in a democratic society, otherwise you'd have legal extortion and theft. ''steal it by jacking the fee 10000%, and then give it to your buddies at the former cheap price again'' ..... . NO that is 100% illegal. and if they missed a ''good name'' that they 'should '' have made premium, then it is their omission, not the buyers.

I have heard instances of fee-price ''resets'' for say NN's... but only at the point of purchase, the day of purchase or 1 or 2 days after ... where the legal wording was already in place about the premium value of those domains.

in that case it was a tech-glitch that allowed those names through to sale at the regular price. but ... once it is bought and has a new OWNER ..... an owner not a renter ..... no way can you legally steal something back by resetting the annual fee at your own whim ..... . courts would (SHOULD) laugh at this, it is so predatory and transparently illegal.

domainers .... associate. band together. $5/yr. is not much. & it's overdue.

 

[robaireg]

added notes ....

if Walmart sells you something, they legally relinquish ownership of that product to you, the new owner. similarly when you buy a domain, the registry relinquishes ownership to you the new owner. the law regarding product sales is uniform across the board and is respected internationally. (GATT etc)

an owner cannot come back and try to take back a product after it is sold. to do so would be called theft and is a jailable offense. once money changes hands and the product is delivered it then becomes the property of the new owner, who has the right to protection from his new goods being stolen back.

a domain is a product exactly the same as any other product: a toaster, a toy duck etc. they are all products. ICANN had very strict standards when they awarded the rights to a new extension, and there was keen competition for them. one of the clauses is that if there is misbehavior, the domain registry might lose their license to run that domain extension. it would be confiscated by ICANN and then given to another registry. that would only happen in the case of attempted theft. (of the public's legally bought and rightfully owned property)

massively raising a renewal fee by a private discretion and without any real cause is called theft. or attempted theft. theft is a jailable offense.

 

[Perceptron]

I guess, its a sort of a myth, being circulated around. "The boogeyman is going to ruin the nTLD party by raising the already inflated renewal cost!"

Apart from some reasonable increment i.e. 10% maybe, tops, else it would be legally suicidal!

FYI: I dont own a big chunk of some specific segment to have an undue allegiance to. I still mostly acquire aged .COMs and have also diversified into a lot of Chips, nTLDs (Doing a thorough research to pre-reg premium combos with less than a $100 in renewal) and a few Patterned .COM Numerics!

 

[bmugford]

massively raising a renewal fee by a private discretion and without any real cause is called theft. or attempted theft. theft is a jailable offense.

Well, it is allowed under ICANN policy with the new registries. They can raise price as they please.
There have already been multiple cases of this happening.

You are comparing more traditional tangible goods to what is essentially a lease.
You are leasing a domain from a registry.

http://domainnamewire.com/2014/05/20/new-tlds-and-a-lack-of-price-caps/

Brad

 

[brindle123]

i guess this is a thread in response to my gtld=ripoff thread.

You are completely wrong about domains. Just like a piece of real estate property, you do not own the domain name or a piece of property no matter how much you initially bought it for. Don't pay your renewal fees and you will lose the domain back to the registrar!

If you don't pay your property taxes, you will lose your property. Renewal fees and property taxes go up all the time. When the value of my home went up so did my taxes. I have not seen any proof that your renewal fees can only go up $5 or $5000 per yr. When you renew your domain, that is the only time that your renewal fee is guaranteed. It can not be increased during the period of your registration except to notify you that when your registration is up there can or will be an increase. What that increase is, is not up to the "owner" of the domain. If you pay for a 10yr registration, fees can go up the very next day to whatever, but you don't have to pay the higher fee until your registration is up.

UVnames posted in my thread that his renewal fee went from $14 to almost $4000. I'm not sure where he is at with that at this moment.

 

[Perceptron]

http://domainnamewire.com/2014/05/20/new-tlds-and-a-lack-of-price-caps/

~ Clears the air!

Wow, nTLD operators can raise their prices to whatever they want as long as they give the registrar 6 months’ notice. Six months notice to renew early for up to 10 years, I guess 99% would drop. As mentioned, registry wouldn’t see much revenue from it and would lose in the long run.

"The more likely scenario is that registries layer in small increases each year once their domains get established. They’ll offer discount programs for first year registrations and slowly increase renewals. They want to keep their registration base, not lose it."

 

[bmugford]

~ Clears the air!

Wow, nTLD operators can raise their prices to whatever they want as long as they give the registrar 6 months’ notice. Six months notice to renew early for up to 10 years, I guess 99% would drop. As mentioned, registry wouldn’t see much revenue from it and would lose in the long run.

"The more likely scenario is that registries layer in small increases each year once their domains get established. They’ll offer discount programs for first year registrations and slowly increase renewals. They want to keep their registration base, not lose it."

Unlike legacy gTLD (COM/NET/ORG/INFO/BIZ) and most ccTLD, many new extensions have tiered pricing.

While the legacy TLDs have a standard renewal fee across the board, many of the new extensions don't.
Which means in the same extension the renewal fee could be $10, $1,000, $4,000, $55,000 a year.

This creates a potential scenario where a registry could just target certain domains. Let's say a business using a new extension is a success, there is nothing stopping a registry from targeting that party and raising the renewal fee on a specific domain.

Or there could be a sale of a registry. Let's say an extension sells to another party, they could raise renewal fees on all the terms they want to reclaim for their own use.

Many of these new registries are small time operations with questionable operators. They certainly don't have the same protections as legacy extensions that are in use by millions and millions of people and companies.

Brad

 

[robaireg]

Just like a piece of real estate property, you do not own the domain name or a piece of property no matter how much you initially bought it for

of course if you fully paid for your real estate you own it. and if you fully paid for the domain you own it.

if you're the owner of land and you don't pay the taxes they have to get a court issue to seize the property. or same with foreclose on a house where the bank owns it until it's fully paid off. however with a domain name you could be paid up fully, but the q. here is if the ones you <<<bought it from>>> could decide arbitrarily to change the nature of the contract. that has to be illegal.

and it still doesn't answer, are you or are you not a PURCHASER? a purchase means ownership. and since you bought that domain the fees represent maintenance costs only. it is not a license to steal back a product already bought and paid for fully. (I'm told that with .com the Verisign fee is a round 7.50 and 25c goes to ICANN. the balance is profit to the vendor. ).

 

[Perceptron]

"Registries can increase the price annually with only 30 days notice for as much as they increased it within the previous 12 months. For example, if .guru increases its wholesale price by $5 next year, it doesn’t have to give 6 months’ notice to raise it another $5 in the subsequent year. (Note that most gTLD contracts to date have percentage increases. The new TLD contract language suggests the maximum increase without 6 months’ notice is the same nominal amount, not percentage.)"

Registries like .CLUB put in a price protection for 5 years in the registry-registrar agreements limiting them from raising the price more than inflation or 15 percent over the entire period, to ensure stability of pricing.

and it still doesn't answer, are you or are you not a PURCHASER? a purchase means ownership.

The Titleship given in every piece of document is "OWNER". There isnt any mention of "LEASE" or "RENT"!

 

[brindle123]

of course if you fully paid for your real estate you own it. and if you fully paid for the domain you own it.

if you're the owner of land and you don't pay the taxes they have to get a court issue to seize the property. or same with foreclose on a house where the bank owns it until it's fully paid off. however with a domain name you could be paid up fully, but the q. here is if the ones you <<<bought it from>>> could decide arbitrarily to change the nature of the contract. that has to be illegal.

and it still doesn't answer, are you or are you not a PURCHASER? a purchase means ownership. and since you bought that domain the fees represent maintenance costs only. it is not a license to steal back a product already bought and paid for fully. (I'm told that with .com the Verisign fee is a round 7.50 and 25c goes to ICANN. the balance is profit to the vendor. ).

You are wrong again. You might own the house but not the land it is on. The govt owns it.
I have a say in what my house will sell for but I have no say other than voting, what taxes I have to pay.

The court would have to get involved to get your property for unpaid taxes. Don't pay your renewal fees and you lose your domain, that is in your purchase agreement. The court doesn't have to get involved to raise your renewal fees beyond what you are capable of or willing to pay.

 

[robaireg]

Well, it is allowed under ICANN policy with the new registries. They can raise price as they please. There have already been multiple cases of this happening.

a domain name is a product and it is sold like any other product. because it is a digital product does not mean it is not a product. and you don't rent the domain you purchase it. if it was rented you would be told you're renting it, and that ''house.com'' and ''insurance.com'' are just being rented and can be seized back at any time, SURE .... I will get the legal wording exactly and print it here.

 

[robaireg]

You are wrong again. You might own the house but not the land it is on. The govt owns it.I have a say in what my house will sell for but I have no say other than voting, what taxes I have to pay.

I'm not interested in ''appearing right'' and scoring theory points. bottom line is that if registries could charge whatever they feel like charging on renewals at their arbitrary decision it would mean ZERO security of ownership at all times and the product would therefore be WORTHLESS. and one doesn't buy worthless products knowingly.

who wants to buy something where they lose it automatically in a years time because of a whim on the part of the vendor.

 

[bmugford]

a domain name is a product and it is sold like any other product. because it is a digital product does not mean it is not a product. and you don't rent the domain you purchase it. if it was rented you would be told you're renting it, and that ''house.com'' and ''insurance.com'' are just being rented and can be seized back at any time, SURE .... I will get the legal wording exactly and print it here.

You can argue it all you want. That is your opinion.

However, the facts are what is in the registries agreement with ICANN. If you think that agreement is not legal then you would have to sue ICANN and the registry. Good luck with that.

Brad

 

[brindle123]

The Titleship given in every piece of document is "OWNER". There isnt any mention of "LEASE" or "RENT"

You "own" it in the sense that you can develop it or sell it as you please. If you "buy" a domain from someone for $100,000 and don't pay the renewal fee when your registration is up, you will not "own" that domain any longer. You can put millions into development and still lose it for not paying renewal.

My house has a "Title" that I get when it is paid off, but I will lose that title if taxes aren't paid. Same with domains.

 

[robaireg]

the facts are what is in the registries agreement with ICANN

with .com you did not get Verisign the registry of .com arbitrarily jacking ''house.com'' or ''car.com'' up to 20k or whatever. they are under a rule of law. they sold a product and they cannot do product theft or else they go to jail.

 

[robaireg]

You "own" it in the sense that you can develop it or sell it as you please. If you "buy" a domain from someone for $100,000 and don't pay the renewal fee when your registration is up, you will not "own" that domain any longer. You can put millions into development and still lose it for not paying renewal.

yes that is obvious. neglect to pay the renewal and you lose the digital product.

and not paying your taxes means a complicated foreclosure designed to protect the owner from being evicted without proper notice.

this is unrelated to a bank suddenly ''feeling like'' charging you triple or 20x on your mortgage. and just because ''they want their house back''. this is theft.

and the only reason a registry would suddenly change the yearly fee from the present one to 10x or 20x or more is because the ''feel like having the product back'' and this is also theft.

 

[brindle123]

When do renewal fees go up? That time is not determined by the domain owner.
(only after the number of yrs that you reg'd it for can it go up) This is the only time YOU decide your fees!!!

How much will they go up? That is not determined by the domain owner.
(some seem to have set pricing and it seems that some don't)

 

[bmugford]

with .com you did not get Verisign the registry of .com arbitrarily jacking ''house.com'' or ''car.com'' up to 20k or whatever. they are under a rule of law. they sold a product and they cannot do product theft or else they go to jail.

I agree with what you are saying that there should be price caps on renewal fees, however that does not exist with new extensions. .COM is under a different contract, and it is up for renewal in a couple years.

The main protection .COM has is the broad usage. There would be a huge uproar if they tried to introduce some tired renewal pricing with no price caps, from both people and companies. That is not really the case with small registries.

Brad

 

[brindle123]

and not paying your taxes means a complicated foreclosure designed to protect the owner from being evicted without proper notice. this is unrelated to a bank suddenly ''feeling like'' charging you triple or 20x on your mortgage. and just because ''they want their house back''. this is theft.

The bank can't raise your mortgage, but the govt can and does raise your property taxes. If my property value goes up, my taxes go up regardless if I agree with it.

.com is more stable with pricing yes. New tlds it is still unclear.

I'm not talking about you having to pay higher renewal fees during your contract. When you renew your registration is when you get hit with higher renewal fee.

 

[Perceptron]

As per the Registry-Registrar contract:

When do renewal fees go up?

• 30 Days Notice for equivalent raise,
• 180 Days for a higher amount

How much will they go up?

• 30 Days same amount or lower
• 180 Days Any ridiculous amount, i.e. basically going suicidal!

UVnames posted in my thread that his renewal fee went from $14 to almost $4000. I'm not sure where he is at with that at this moment.

I would like to have an actual follow-up on this one! As mentioned by UVnames it could be due to some error by the Registrar!

 

[robaireg]

The main protection .COM has is the broad usage. There would be a huge uproar if they tried to introduce some tired renewal pricing with no price caps, from both people and companies. That is not really the case with small registries.

these ''small registries'' like donuts and famous4 media are actually very large (by capital) investment firms with many ties to banking etc. and their customers are now sizable & vast, including Google (xyz domains) and many big companies ... it is not a small fish thing by any means (& with all the >1M .tops now and others like it) ... it's a huge legal mess they could start if they pulled stunts like trying to steal back domains that they now feel like owning.

 

[Perceptron]

it's a huge legal mess they could start if they pulled stunts like trying to steal back domains that they now feel like owning.

Ditto!

 

[ZapNano]

this calls into question whether a domainer is an OWNER or a RENTER. (legally speaking) do you know? do you care to know? (I do) ...

if a gTLD registry (new extension administrator, ie: famous 4 media, donuts, uniregistry, or any of 12 other big ones) were able to change the annual pricing on ''selected domains'' that they personally felt were now ''premium'' (but weren't at the point of purchase) it would be the worst kind of business extortion. it would be predation. it would also be 100% illegal.

when you buy a domain you don't get an email saying ''thank you for renting this domain on a year to year basis'' ... you get an email saying ''thank you for your purchase''.

a purchase is where you buy something and then you own it. if someone administers a domain extension they do not own the domains they administer. ask ICANN about this and read the application that the registry submitted in order to run that domain, the ''serve the public with total and ongoing integrity language'' there is a lot of that language because public trust was a dominant factor in ICANN's awarding any extension ...

neither do they have any legal right to ''shake out'' owners from whom they would now like to ''steal back'' selected domains that they wish to own for themselves. the only way they could steal back domains from the rightful owners would be to massively raise the renewals on those selected domains. ANY court should see through such a transparent scam.

that would amount to theft plain and simple. so it gets back to the question- do you OWN your domain or do you rent it? from what I see all the language points to the fact you own it. the renewal fees are supposedly there to cover all admin expenses by the registrar ....and for a sweetener, ICANN ... ALLOWED THEM to set a premium price in selected products at the initial sale point. ONLY.

this is deemed legal because the buyer knows in advance what the yearly renewal will be, and ''caveat emptor''... if you don't like that fee, don't buy it. BUT ... once it is BOUGHT .....

1) curious that domainers have no national and international association to protect their basic rights. the way say, any other property owner would have such an association.
2) I propose the ..... DOMAINER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION. an international body with the sole purpose of looking after the legal rights of domain OWNERS. (not renters) funded by modest dues, say $ 5 per year for every domain owner deductible on the 1st purchase.

I saw the thread today where the q. is asked whether gTLD registries should be able to arbitrarily ''reset'' the renewal rates on any domain they see fit to ''steal back''. (because it would have just one purpose and that would be to steal it back)

the answer is no, that is 100% illegal and predatory. you cannot do stuff like that in a democratic society, otherwise you'd have legal extortion and theft. ''steal it by jacking the fee 10000%, and then give it to your buddies at the former cheap price again'' ..... . NO that is 100% illegal. and if they missed a ''good name'' that they 'should '' have made premium, then it is their omission, not the buyers.

I have heard instances of fee-price ''resets'' for say NN's... but only at the point of purchase, the day of purchase or 1 or 2 days after ... where the legal wording was already in place about the premium value of those domains.

in that case it was a tech-glitch that allowed those names through to sale at the regular price. but ... once it is bought and has a new OWNER ..... an owner not a renter ..... no way can you legally steal something back by resetting the annual fee at your own whim ..... . courts would (SHOULD) laugh at this, it is so predatory and transparently illegal.

domainers .... associate. band together. $5/yr. is not much. & it's overdue.

I definitely agree with this 1000+%! And I also had contributed of the same thoughts for this topic. Plain, pure & simple; be reasonable & fair; don't be so shallow. And the rest will follow!

 

[brindle123]

Yes you have to be given notice of renewal fee changes!
They can give you notice that renewal can be what ever they want suicidal or not.

 

[bmugford]

these ''small registries'' like donuts and famous4 media are actually very large (by capital) investment firms with many ties to banking etc. and their customers are now sizable & vast, including Google (xyz domains) and many big companies ... it is not a small fish thing by any means (& with all the >1M .tops now and others like it) ... it's a huge legal mess they could start if they pulled stunts like trying to steal back domains that they now feel like owning.

They are small in comparison to .COM. I am not talking about just volume of domains.
I am talking about usage and awareness as well.

Also most of the extensions with the highest volumes are charging like $1 or less per domain.
It is not like they are really raking in the revenue when you factor in how much money has been spent in the cost to acquire the extension, staff, marketing, etc.

There are also many smaller one off registries with a few hundred or thousand regs that are not financially sustainable on their own.

Also, there are already multiple cases of this happening. So arguing if it will happen is moot at this point.
The argument is how much it will happen and which registries/extensions offer more protections from this.

I would call on more registries to self impose price controls. It is a major uncertainty with the entire new gTLD program.

Brad