question Fastest Flip in the West!

[Levi_charlz]

What’s the record for the biggest/fastest domain flip that you know of?

 

[Rob Monster]

That's easy.

We see these deals all the time:

1. Broker finds a buyer at Price X

2. Broker finds a seller at Price Y.

3. Simultaneous close via intermediary (e.g. Epik)

4. Broker banks the spread net of fees.

There are some smart domain guys doing this on a regular basis and banking large spreads with relatively little risk because they own the domain for about 1 minute.

And now you know.

 

[wallet2it]

I think the fastest has to be my sale of I/n/v/e/s/t/i/g/a/t/o/r.org...bought it at $700 here on np and sold three hours latter to end user for $4999

https://www.namepros.com/threads/report-completed-domain-name-sales-here.83628/page-733

 

[Rob Monster]

Does the "broker" get a commission from either buyer or seller?

The broker is not a broker -- they are arbitraging a spread.

In short, the person who arranges that deal does not represent the buyer or the seller. They simply secure a buy price and a sell price and they arbitrage the spread with very little risk assuming there is an intermediary that is helping to clear both transactions

Here is the reality:

- The rich are getting richer
- The poor are getting poorer

You are buying from the poor (who need a fast sale and appreciate the exit) and selling to the rich (who have more money than time). Everybody wins.

 

[EJS]

Yes, and that method is more commonly done than you might realize.

Do you think it is ethical to solicit offers for someone else's domain name without their permission?

Do you think it is legal to try and sell someone else's domain name without their permission?

I have seen quite a few UDRP cases where the complainant cites an outbound sales pitch as evidence of bad faith. Imagine if a UDRP was filed against your name because some unauthorized third party tried to aggressively sell your domain name to a trademark interest without permission from your or regard for harming your rights. Not only would defending a UDRP incur legal costs, but even if the registrant prevails, it could devalue the domain name because a future prospective buyer would know there risk for a subsequent UDRP exists.

The intermediary also runs the risk that one party backs out of the deal and he or she could be on the hook. If the buyer backs out, the person could be left with a domain name they bought for too much money hoping for that flip. If the seller backs out, they will not be able to fulfill their sale obligation.

By calling people who do this "smart domain guys," it might encourage someone to think this is a widely accepted practice. I do not believe this is ethical (not sure on the legal aspect ), and I presume others might feel the same way as I feel. I also think this is a risky practice, especially if they are caught doing it.

I think this can be reputationally damaging, if not financially damaging.

 

[Internet.Domains]

I once flipped a domain within an hour. I hand regged the name, mentioned it on here (NP), accepted an offer, got paid and pushed the domain. Complete process in less then one hour...Granted, it was only a $50 sale. It was more about accomplishing a "fast flip in the West."

 

[Spex]

I dont' know if it's a record, but this is an interesting story.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/camroulette-com-sells-for-151-000.646657/

CamRoulette.com was bought for $1,400 and flipped for $151,000 in a month

 

[EJS]

That's easy.

We see these deals all the time:

1. Broker finds a buyer at Price X

2. Broker finds a seller at Price Y.

3. Simultaneous close via intermediary (e.g. Epik)

4. Broker banks the spread net of fees.

There are some smart domain guys doing this on a regular basis and banking large spreads with relatively little risk because they own the domain for about 1 minute.

And now you know.

For clarity, are you talking about a deal like this?

I see EpikExample.com (example) has a "for sale" landing page. I reach out to you to ask the price and you tell me you will sell me the name for $5,000. I then reach out to various people who might want to buy the domain name and offer to sell it for $7,000. This effort is successful, so I buy the name from you via Epik for $5,000 and I immediately sell it to someone else via Epik for $7,000 and make $2,000 profit with a 1 minute hold.

 

[Rob Monster]

For clarity, are you talking about a deal like this?

I see EpikExample.com (example) has a "for sale" landing page. I reach out to you to ask the price and you tell me you will sell me the name for $5,000. I then reach out to various people who might want to buy the domain name and offer to sell it for $7,000. This effort is successful, so I buy the name from you via Epik for $5,000 and I immediately sell it to someone else via Epik for $7,000 and make $2,000 profit with a 1 minute hold.

Yes, and that method is more commonly done than you might realize.

 

[wallet2it]

Sick. Was it outbound?

No buddy. Afternic bin accepted haha...did zero work

 

[boker]

This would have been my record(and probably one of the fastest out there): https://www.namepros.com/threads/hand-regged-sold-in-47-minutes.978091/, but unfortunately the domain was registered and locked with dotster( $1,69 coupon domain) and the buyer didn't trust them, so didn't payed in the end. The next one's will be a couple of one's under 24 hours and a few under one week.

 

[equity78]

I wrote this back in 2015
Selling A Domain Name You Don’t Own – Cool or Not Cool ?

There was a blog post by AntiCareer.com which talked about buying and selling a name that they did not own. The post titled “Turning A No Into A Yes and a $5,000 profit.

Morgan Linton had touched upon this a few years earlier. Back in November of 2012, Morgan wrote, “You should only buy a domain if you have at least some form of expressed interest from one or more parties if you are looking for quick flips. If your time horizon is longer then you could buy names knowing that you’ll sell them over the next couple of years but I’d only recommend that once you have a few good sales under your belt.”

A commenter replied, “Am I understanding this right… you call businesses trying to sell them names that you don’t own??”

Morgan replied back,

@Mike – you are correct. Definitely don’t lie to anyone, just let them know that you can acquire the domain for them. AntiCareer.com discusses this technique as well in this post – http://www.anticareer.com/how-to-make-money-by-flipping-domain-names/

That being said, once you get a few solid flips under your belt you might feel comfortable buying the names and taking the risk since you’ll have a better understanding of what sells.

Now there is a discussion on Namepros with the latest AntiCareer post if this is ethical ? Namepros member Johname was correct in saying we don’t exactly how things went.

The person not clear on how the $6500 number came along and when was the money paid. This is the crux of the ethics.

There are collector car ‘finders’ that have buyers lined up before they pull the trigger on a purchase. but they offer a service their buyer cant do themselves. (unlike purchasing a domain from Sedo) And they fully paid for the car before they sell it to buyer.

This person’s premium for just looking on Sedo (or wherever) is not a ‘fee’ but instead just grabbing for all one can.

Default User had this to say, If you make the offer as if you are the owner of the asset you are lying. I don’t believe there’s any way that’s ethical – ever. The whole practice of brokering would be non-existent if this was not considered generally unacceptable. Why would anyone work for commission if they could command the entire profit margin?

If you approached a client saying that you would try and acquire that name on their behalf, or you were employed/contracted by them as a finder, then it’s different. Now you’re a broker for the buyer and how much profit you make is between you and them.

It’s subtle but important distinction.

Some people feel it is totally ethical and others don’t. I think this version of Name Arbitrage can be risky because there are certain variables, one is theft. What if the domain was stolen and listed on Sedo ? Eventually that buyer may lose the domain in a UDRP from the original owner, now how does the arbitrageur or middle man explain that ?

Another scenario, what if the seller refuses the transfer ? I had that happen on Sedo, years ago, hit the buy it now, when seller was told to push the domain refused to transfer the name. They set their buy it now too low probably and then decided to not sell.

There is also the other scenario that plays out everyday, not related to the AntiCareer post, but people trying to sell domains they don’t own. There are plenty of people who send out emails trying to find buyers using the inventory of someone they don’t know.

Example, go check the buy it now listings for LLL.com on Sedo, not make offer but pure buy it now. Then email a ton of people at a healthy profit and if you get lucky, buy the name on Sedo and push to your new buyer.

There are a lot of things potentially damaging to the original owner. What if this unknown broker/spammer happens to contact someone who has a TM on those three letters ? They may file a UDRP and use the email, it would be interesting to see if the panel listened to the original owner or just transferred the domain. At a minimum the owner may now be looked at as a spammer.

Years ago I laughed as I got an email on a .TV domain, I knew the person who owned the name for years, it was a very good LL.tv. The email was trying to sell me on the name, but the contact info made no sense. I emailed the person who I knew and asked if he hired a broker ? He replied, “No Raymond why ?” I said because someone just tried to sell it to me asking if I was interested at $50,000 ?

I think a lot of people would be surprised to know how many of their names are getting pitched without them knowing it. Problem is you really can’t find out unless you or an associate gets the spam.

Leave your thoughts on selling a domain you don’t own.

https://tldinvestors.com/2015/04/selling-a-domain-name-you-dont-own-cool-or-not-cool.html

 

[Bob Campbell]

I registered LeviTaste.com around 3-4 months ago...just got an offer for $350. - without a for sale page.

Around 6 or more years ago.I registerd DiscoveryDesk.com sold it for $2,850. - without a for sale page

I'm new to actively selling domains...I only sell one or two a year for $1,500-3k. Never had more than 40-50 in my portfolio. But have never tried to advertise or use the for sale page option til now.

Love this forum...learning a lot.

 

[Kassey Lee]

1. Broker finds a buyer at Price X

2. Broker finds a seller at Price Y.

3. Simultaneous close via intermediary (e.g. Epik)

4. Broker banks the spread net of fees.

Does the "broker" get a commission from either buyer or seller?

 

[Lord Antares]

I once flipped a domain within an hour. I hand regged the name, mentioned it on here (NP), accepted an offer, got paid and pushed the domain. Complete process in less then one hour...Granted, it was only a $50 sale. It was more about accomplishing a "fast flip in the West."

If we're gonna talk resellers, then I managed to flip a 4l in 20 minutes as well as some other domains within a few hours. Not sure if namepros should count as it's much easier.

 

[wallet2it]

No buddy. Afternic bin accepted haha...did zero work

Now I type in the name and it directs to .com. I guess the .com owner wants the .org as well

 

[Internet.Domains]

Somehow we went from:

1. Broker finds a buyer at Price X

2. Broker finds a seller at Price Y.

To:

Do you think it is ethical to solicit offers for someone else's domain name without their permission?

Do you think it is legal to try and sell someone else's domain name without their permission?

I think those are two completely different things.

 

[equity78]

Here was the last big thread on the topic https://www.namepros.com/threads/tu...d-a-5-000-profit-ethical-or-unethical.854301/

 

[jstenn13]

I agree with Elliot here. (I posted this in the other thread and will paste it here, as it is relevant)

If I own a domain I don't want some random third party to represent me or my domain without my permission.

Domains are not are a reproducible product that can be drop shipped. A domain is a one of a kind asset like many types of art, collectibles, etc.

I have dealt with this in the past. It can go anywhere from unethical to outright fraud when a third party represents themselves as owning or having permission to offer your domain for sale.

The domain owner is then on the hook for the actions of these unauthorized third parties.

Any negative repercussion such as legal issues will fall on the domain owner.
It can also damage the domain when it comes to potential end users.

Brad

I also fully agree with Elliot here. I also agree with you, Brad. Trying to arbitrage a domain without permission from the owner to try and sell it for them is definitely unethical. Too much damage can be done to a domain by an arbitrager. It's pretty black and white in my eyes.

 

[Lord Antares]

I think the fastest has to be my sale of I/n/v/e/s/t/i/g/a/t/o/r.org...bought it at $700 here on np and sold three hours latter to end user for $4999

https://www.namepros.com/threads/report-completed-domain-name-sales-here.83628/page-733

Sick. Was it outbound?

 

[EJS]

Rob what happens if the person who got the option can't find a buyer?

The bigger area of concern for me is illustrated here:

You agree to sell me ABC.com (hypothetical domain name you own) for $1m with a 14 day close. Maybe you sold me the option or maybe I just have an email from you stating that you will sell me the name.

I reach out to a bunch of companies called ABC to try to sell it for $1.5m.

A major company called ABC replies to me "ABC is our trademark, and we will filed a UDRP if you do not give it to us for free."

I disappear and nobody hears from me again.

ABC files a UDRP against ABC.com and you need to hire a lawyer because someone tried to sell it to a trademark interest without permission.

Keep in mind you never reached out to third party trademark interests because you know of the risk, but someone else did it without your permission.

 

[equity78]

I am more concerned about the one word or 3l .com names that were acquired in the last year or two where there could be senior rights holders that claim an outbound solicitation is bad faith. I don't want to have to pay $5-10k on a legal defense because someone tried to sell my name to a TM holder when I wouldn't even do that due to the risk.

Again, my opinion is that it is unethical to try and sell someone else's domain name or property without their permission. If someone hires a third party as a broker, that is a different story. It is when the outbound solicitation is done without permission.

I am not implying that what you are doing is illegal at all. You are the intermediary. You wouldn't be expected to know what terms a buyer has with the first seller or the seller has with the buyer. People look up to you as a leader in the business, and I wouldn't want them to think it is okay to try and sell someone else's domain name without permission.

I am headed out with my family for movie night so unlikely that I will be able to respond to anything more until tomorrow. Enjoy your weekend.

Have fun at the movies and I would like to add, I don't own ABC.com but I do own ABC.media and will accept your $1million offer.

 

[equity78]

I think people should use discernment as to who they should make an offer to. Many sellers of premium domains don't even give prices. They force the buyer to make an offer. That is one way to prevent being arbitraged. I think it may cause that owner to wait a lot longer to get a sale, but it is certainly a safer method.

We own about 9000 O&O domains. We also manage inquiries for many customers who are not interested in replying to inbounds since most are tire-kickers anyway.

When someone asks me about a domain, I might typically say something like this in response:

###

You are probably looking at somewhere north of $100,000 for this domain.

Alternatively, it is sometimes possible to do a domain lease with a purchase option.

Depending on your budget, happy to advise.

###

Now that response forces the buyer to commit to a price, and then if they want to buy it, they have to fund that purchase.

On the other hand, if that buyer has a string of inquiries that go nowhere, you are going to quickly figure out that the guy is all hat and no cattle and stop giving them quotes.

Enjoy your movie.

Rob I think you are running a legit shop, I think Elliot was really worried about what I wrote about years ago, it started here https://tldinvestors.com/2015/04/selling-a-domain-name-you-dont-own-cool-or-not-cool.html

discussed here https://www.namepros.com/threads/tu...d-a-5-000-profit-ethical-or-unethical.854301/

 

[.X.]

from purchase to sale, and hour and a half is the fastest i ever pulled the trigger, i didn't completely know i had a buyer when i purchased the name, but i was pretty sure i did.

 

[Lord Antares]

Somehow we went from:


To:


I think those are two completely different things.

Nah, I think they're talking about the same thing, i.e. trying to find buyers for a domain you don't own yet. Then when you find one, you buy the domain and sell it to the other party. It's a very obvious thing to do and I would be surprised if there weren't many people doing it.