EstBot thinks .pro domains are worth crap now

[sky]

Last week listing.pro appraised by EstiBot at $1000, this week $40, before that, multiple thousands.

So now .pro's based on popular keywords aren't even worth reg fee?
So the people who bought movies.pro for $25,000 are nuts and the people who are selling .pro's for multiple thousands of dollars are lying or lucky?

I don't get it. You can get better names with .pro than you can with .com, and I would rather point someone to a cool .pro name than a sucky .com name because the pickin's have been churned over in the .com space.

How does one figure out the worth of a .pro? What's EstiBot's current appraisal doing differently than last week and the week before? How is that value established?

Any .pro owners want to list their sales here to reassure us or affirm EstiBot's appraisals?

 

[Sam]

Why are you obssessed over appriasals???? Its estibot... not your actual sales price.

 

[sky]

A bit new to this

It would be nice to see a tool like that stabilize on a valuation. I personally think it's low vs. how the names sound and can be used. I'll chill
It's just an odd experience to find the valuation fluctuating so wildly with the tool, and wondering how in the world or why it's doing that, and what he bases it on. I'll ask him.


Meanwhile, ... life goes on.

 

[mktgmark]

Personally, I'd be more surprised if Estibot gave an accurate appraisal.

 

[mjs]

Dear Josh (Estibot),

You recently tweaked your service in an effort to provide more accurate estimates with regard to .Pro domains. Your concern in seeking to furnish a more reliable product is to be applauded. That said, its become apparent to myself and others with .Pro interests, that additional tweaking is in order. For example, just two weeks ago, Estibot returned a valuation of 18,000 USD for Jobs.pro. Today, that same domain returned a valuation of 150 USD. Thank you.

 

[akcampbell]

I bought Training.pro for $1,800 and Recruitment.pro for Euros 1,100 this week on Sedo. Estibot values Training.pro at $110 and Recruitment.pro at $50. I don't think there is any point getting hung up on Estibot valuations.

Estibot did manage to work out that Jobs.pro is more valuable than Training.pro, Training.pro is more valuable than Recruitment.pro and Recruitment.pro is more valuable than Listing.pro.

If I had paid for the valuation, I would feel conned but you can't complain about something that is free. I paid Godaddy to value a .info domain I'd bought and they valued it at about 1% of what I paid. I was annoyed because they swindled me out of the fee, but that's life.

Valuing domains automatically is like valuing fine art automatically. It's not possible and will never be possible. Bots will never go through the same thought processes as a domainer or developer.

For example, before I bid for Training.pro, I noticed it had a very unusual characteristic. If you put the word Training into Google you get about 460m unique page impressions. If you put in the words Training Professional into Google you get about 425m unique page impressions. That means that only 7.6% of references to the word Training on the Internet don't also include the word professional somewhere. I use the ratio of 425/460 to gauge goodness of fit with the .pro extension.

Goodness of fit is a critical value adder for alternative extensions and is something bot valuation tools are hopeless at picking up on. For example, prior to the sale, I doubt many bots would have valued cc.cc at $70,000. 95% of that sale price was down to goodness of fit. MJS puts Golf.pro alongside Hotel.pro, Travel.pro and Casino.pro because of unusual goodness of fit. He wouldn't do that in any other extension.

One thing I would say about Golf.pro is it's not actually the best fit with the .pro extension on any of the ratios I use. "Golf Pro" in Google has 1.46m uniques and "Golf Professional" has 0.6m. Golf has 328m Google uniques versus just 43.2m for Golf Pro.

Putting this into practice, I regged Qualified.pro because "Qualified Professional" has 1.86m Google uniques. I don't think the keyword Qualified would have much value in other alternative extensions but in .pro it works. Registry.pro must have thought so too because they took Qualification.pro and Qualify.pro along with all the third level exensions. Estibot values Qualified.pro at $20.

Obviously, goodness of fit is just one of many attributes that contribute to overall .pro value. Golf is far more valuable than keywords that only score on goodness of fit like Qualified because of it's Overture score and mindset value.

One of things I love about .pro is that there are so many different angles you come from in picking keywords other than Overture and Google and because the extension is relatively new they are often still available.

For example, one method I used was Extension Reversal value, where the .pro can be moved in front of the keyword. I regged Democracy.pro as in Pro-Democracy on this basis, it would make a great name for a political discussion forum. AnimalRights.pro and Abortion.pro are still available. Life.pro, HumanRights.pro and a few others like this are taken.

Other types of value I can see in .pro are Technical value, Knack value and Brag value. If something has a knack to it, .pro is a fantastic extension to pair with the keyword. For example, I regged Puzzle.pro, Quiz.pro, Crossword.pro, Gadget.pro, and Cocktail.pro on this basis. For technical value, I regged HiFi.pro and HomeCinema.pro, and for Brag value Chauffeur.pro and Concierge.pro.

Brag value is where the keyword isn't really a profession in the white collar sense of the word but where the people doing it like to regard themselves as professional. A good proxy for where Brag value is present is when the person providing the service wears a smart uniform.

Brag value, Technical value, and Knack value are major selling points of .pro. As I say on my parked pages, .pro adds credibility and legitimacy to keywords. The only other extension to do that is .com and that's to do with the perceived value of the domain rather than genuine meaning.

Another issue with bot valuations is they can't work out keyword value outside the US. When I was looking for .pros I focused on premium UK keywords because the US versions were invariably taken. Estibot values most of my best UK-centric .pro reg's like Pension.pro, EstateAgent.pro, Letting.pro and TravelAgent.pro at nil value. I'm sure the problem Bots have is even worse in other languages.

 

[Hycari]

The thing about domains, is no matter what someone values the domain at, what really matters is how badly someone else wants it. A domain can be worth more to someone else than the beholder. Like another person said, the automatic appraisers are impossible to trust. It's like taking doing one for your house, it's impossible, because how can the program judge the curb appeal and all of the other stuff that goes with houses.

 

[RogueWriter]

The result I see at estibot.com says "BETA estimate", which suggests, hey, don't take these numbers as the final word. It's great to point out where they need to improve the estimates, but I wouldn't get worked up over the fact that it is not perfect yet.

 

[sky]

The result I see at estibot.com says "BETA estimate", which suggests, hey, don't take these numbers as the final word. It's great to point out where they need to improve the estimates, but I wouldn't get worked up over the fact that it is not perfect yet.

It's OK. I didn't pin all my hopes on EstiBot. The frequency counts and *relative* valuations of .pro names was very helpful for me to establish which among two or more .pro would *tend* to be more popular.

I disagree with it's valuation, and I'm quite sure I can get a lot more money for them. They appraise much better elsewhere. I'm really pleased with my portfolio, and I'm going to have fun marketing them.

Let's face it, Performance.pro sounds better than Performance.com, and that's just a fact.

 

[RogueWriter]

I'd take Performance.com over the .pro any day of the week, just like I would any other .com/.pro comparison. Not even close!

That is not to say that Performance.Pro is not a great name, it's rather good. If I owned Performance.tv, I would place that one above the .pro as well. Sorry, just my opinion only, and if I was smart, I'd be rich, which I'm not.

 

[sky]

I'd take Performance.com over the .pro any day of the week, just like I would any other .com/.pro comparison. Not even close!

That is not to say that Performance.Pro is not a great name, it's rather good. If I owned Performance.tv, I would place that one above the .pro as well. Sorry, just my opinion only, and if I was smart, I'd be rich, which I'm not.

The point I made isn't whether you'd 'take' performance.com before you'd acquire performance.pro, but which one actually sounds better.

I'd take performance.com over performance.pro, if I could get it, which there is no friggin' way in the world I, nor most people could,. I'd take the .com version because of it's profit potential, not because of it's aesthetic or linguistic popularity.

I realize that's a subjective thing, and that .com will 'sound better' to someone who sees it as more valuable, or who has been conditioned through advertisments, etc, to recognize .com as sounding cool.

I'm not trying to claim that the current value of .pro is higher than .com or .tv. I'm saying that the natural affinity is stronger with performance and .professional than with .company.

I believe that in the relatively 'natural' order of things Performance.pro indeed sounds better than Performance.com. It sounds more like a winner.

 

[mjs]

I just sent a PM to Estibot's NamePros representative (Josh 1) to ensure that he is aware of the matters raised in this thread, and has an opportunity to look into the matter and remedy, as appropriate. I would recommend that interested members withhold further postings on the issue until such time as Estibot can respond accordingly. Thanks.

 

[estibot.com]

Thanks for the notification by PM, mjs. I had missed this thread. I'm going to have a look at the .pro market and re-analyze the existing data.

The problem with the .pro extension as well as many other extensions is that the market is immature and there is very little sales data to base appraisals on. EstiBot uses two databases, the NameBio database and my own database of past domain sales to compare the domain characteristics to those of previously sold domains, and makes its calculations based on that. When there is little data it means that it the power of the statistical analysis is poor.

That's statistics for ya. I have opted to accept only those parameters into the equation that produce statistical significance for domain value. The less sales data, the less parameters to consider. Therefore more fluctuation with valuations.

This requirement results in certain limitations and general unhappiness amongst owners of less popular extensions. I could go the Leapfish route and consider in the valuation whatever I THINK has an effect. That would make the system more universal, but also very unreliable.

My system is far from perfect and has its shortcomings, but although the requirements I have set do cause some limitations and inaccuracies, those requirements are also the sole reason EstiBot is (arguably of course) much better than the other free appraisal systems out there, and better than many paid ones, too.

Goodness of fit is a critical value adder for alternative extensions and is something bot valuation tools are hopeless at picking up on.

Not so fast I'm working on a goodness-of-fit routine for extensions (which are, like .pro domains, essentially, domain hacks), it was my intention from the start. I've had such major problems recently with the functionality due to heavy use (and unfortunately some excessive use) that it's been quite a battle to just keep the site live...therefore this domain-hack detection routine has been low on my priority list, but I'll get it done. I have it figured out already, just need time to do some coding.

It's OK. I didn't pin all my hopes on EstiBot. The frequency counts and *relative* valuations of .pro names was very helpful for me to establish which among two or more .pro would *tend* to be more popular.

Thanks for using my tool exactly as it was intended to be used: Ballpark/relative value combined with the provided keyword data combined with owner's knowledge of the market + human intuition.

It is of course just a program, and provides one-way information. To be fair to my bot, it only has one go and must provide a number within seconds to thousands of people every day.

The results always require human interpretation.

Depending on whether you like to use my program or hate it, you may or may not be interested to know that for those domains that are found in the previous sales databases, EstiBot provides an appraisal that is a combination of its own raw appraisal and the known previous sale price. That's why you may see values that are sometimes higher, sometimes lower than the actual sale price.

Ok better stop here before I get carried away again...sorry.

Anyway, as noted here it's just a bot, I'm working hard to make it as useful as possible, and I promise to take a look at the .pro valuations.

Cheers!
Josh

 

[Silhouette]

I believe that in the relatively 'natural' order of things Performance.pro indeed sounds better than Performance.com. It sounds more like a winner.

So May I ask:
Can I say Anything/Everything.interNET is a winner, too, because you are looking at/for that Anything/Everything on the net?

So, Josh, can we do a tweak for .NET value as well? :yell:

<j/k'ing>

 

[Spade]

I want to make a comment on several points found here. The first is the criticism of the accuracy of Estibot. first and foremost, its an automated system that is constantly improving. Im not sure if the people criticizing it have ever sat down and actually attempted to create a tool like this, but I Commend Josh for his hard work and continued growth of Estibot.

You dont have to agree with anything. Infact, the real price is what the domain sales for. (IF!!!! it sells). The truth is, there are some .pro domain sales out there, but they pail in comparison to that of .com.

I also would like to give a warning to those rookie domainers who have opted to invest in .pro as an extension. Please be careful, .pro is potentially an attractive TLD that has many great keywords still available. However, much like any newer TLD they are going to have to have some serious development, and market recognition before a true sales market is going to exist. At this stage in the game, only a fraction of developed sites, are built on .pro

I myself have debated the extension. There is a Risk and Reward analysis that must be done when purchasing domain names. That needs to be especially considered when your registration/renewal fees are in the hundreds of dollars. So again, I re-iterate, be patient and allow time for the market to develop, this has the potential to be a successful TLD - especially if the correct circumstances follow. But please be aware of the risk....

Justin

 

[sky]

So May I ask:
Can I say Anything/Everything.interNET is a winner, too, because you are looking at/for that Anything/Everything on the net?

So, Josh, can we do a tweak for .NET value as well? :yell:

<j/k'ing>

It's really all context-sensitive. I mean, in my opinion Performance.pro sounds better than Performance.com. Whereas News.com would probably sound more appropriate than News.pro. IPMonitor.net would sound more appropriate than IPMonitor.com, and so it goes. What I meant is that for certain words, .pro sounds a lot better and natural.

 

[estibot.com]

It does look like my last updated had penalized .pro somewhat more than some other extensions. I now did a reanalysis of the .pro sales figures and updated the algorithm to put more weight on some single keyword sales.

Updated results for some of the domains mentioned in this thread:
training.pro 570
jobs.pro 830
recruitment.pro 270
performance.pro 300
casino.pro 5,700

Casino.pro is probably worth a lot more than that, but the algo cannot be tweaked to accommodate to individual domains - that would lead to distortion of the rest of the spectrum.

The values are of course just comparative. The actual sale price, if a sale is indeed made, can be very different.

These are nice domain names; that's not the problem. The problem is lack of market data and the consequent uncertaintly of the marketability of the extension.

As always, it's nearly impossible, for bot and human alike, to appraise a domain and claim to predict an exact end user sale figure. That depends entirely on the motivation of both the buyer and the seller.

Any domain name that has been registered but has not received a single offer is worth the registration fee, pretty much by definition. EstiBot tries to estimate the potential value beyond the reg fee, if any, but should not go wild in predicting an end user sale.

It's always safe to assume that a previously unregistered domain name is worth the registration fee at a maximum. Any value beyond that is speculative.

The moment the first bona fide offer comes in, the market value of the domain changes. What sort of offers have you had for these domains?

.pro sure has a lot of potential, but aren't there also restrictions that might limit the number of buyers?

From a domaining perspective, the most important thing is that it hasn't proven its worth as a marketable extension yet. Certainly good single-word names such as casino.pro, jobs.pro etc are worth having and can produce a hefty profit if the extension becomes popular.

Thanks-
Josh

 

[sky]

Since last week Google has indexed 7000 new .pro sites.
I'm not kidding. Last week when I checked it was about 170,000.
This week 177,000... That's a significant rate

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:.pro&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS243US243

 

[akcampbell]

Sky as at 30 June 2007 there were 5,271 .pros registered. You are misinterpreting whatever indexing information you are getting from Google. Here's the registry's report to ICANN.

http://www.icann.org/tlds/monthly-reports/pro/registrypro-200706.pdf

 

[sky]

Sky as at 30 June 2007 there were 5,271 .pros registered. You are misinterpreting whatever indexing information you are getting from Google. Here's the registry's report to ICANN.

http://www.icann.org/tlds/monthly-reports/pro/registrypro-200706.pdf

What does google "site:.pro" do then, when it comes up with 177,000 hits?

I'll have to research it. I thought it was a count of websites that it had found.

Sorry if I got that wrong. I'll try to find out what it means exactly.

What does google "site:.pro" do then, when it comes up with 177,000 hits?

I'll have to research it. I thought it was a count of websites that it had found.

Sorry if I got that wrong. I'll try to find out what it means exactly.

However we're in October, and the report comes out in 3 month increments, so the last 3-month period ends in September, so any day now we'll see how many were registered over the Summer.