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Dot CA Discussion and Showcase

Labeled as .ca in ccTLD Discussion, started by whitebark, Jul 7, 2008

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  1. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    And who do you think would mysteriously be that 1 Company the CIRA selects to exert steel-fisted, monopolistic control over the entire .CA marketplace?

    [​IMG]

    MyIDon't know..
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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  2. MapleDots

    MapleDots Top Contributor VIP

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    HeHe, Actually, I think you kind of hit it with that one, except I would have passed on BK. :xf.grin::xf.grin:

    However, I would be concerned not to harm the marketplace and other buyers.
    I simply would prefer the one stop shopping type of scenario where the highest bidder gets the domain period.

    I mean look at godaddy expiring names, no fuss, no muss, you bid you win, you get.
    Money talks and bullshit walks.

    I think eventually godaddy will represent the vast majority of expiring domains at auction. Other registrars will simply partner, list there and give godaddy a small cut to use their auction system.

    Why the heck can't we just use a similar system for expiring .ca's?
     
  3. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    Well, the story takes a strange turn and it looks like the CIRA might have been reading this thread, because after the investigation, only 6 top domains were affected by the technical issue and are being put back into this week's pot, thus leaving the rest of the TBR run unaffected.

    These 6 domains are:

    anniversary.ca
    bk.ca
    fixit.ca
    jobshop.ca
    les400coups.ca
    ranger.ca

    * This info is courtesy of Tom at Baremetal.

    If only the top of the chart was affected by the technical hiccup, then this is the proper decision by the CIRA and rather than "throwing the baby out with the bath water" they only remove the affected picks and leave the majority of the list unscathed.

    Now the big question is, when do the remaining TBR auctions resume?

     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  4. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    Just imagine that one of the prime mandates of the CIRA is to promote .CA and Canadian online businesses, then you should have about 10 prime reasons why this idea is insanely counter-productive and will never ever happen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  5. Spex

    Spex Established Member

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    Now I'm not the smartest guy here, but if it affected the top picks, wouldn't every pick thereafter be affected as well? It's kind of a cascading thing
     
  6. premiumgold

    premiumgold Premium Investment Domains. Gold Account

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    I have well over 50+ Dot Ca Domains that memorable and highly market worthy actual one word domains spelling's.

    Now there comes the time I must Sell! I've been nesting premium quality Dot Ca Domains in my portfolio for years, just to mention a few in passing. (Utmost.ca, Screenshots.ca, headquarter.ca, Laborday.ca)

    If anyone is willing to view my dot ca portfolio just DM Me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  7. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    Not necessarily, as each pick is distinct and sent individually at a certain time, so the CIRA tech issue could have been isolated to the very beginning, yet not impact the later and individually distinct requests. It's easy to prove just by looking at the logs.

    Not saying that's how it happened, but that's how systems like this work - if picks 1-6 were impacted (i.e. other registrars requested these domains earlier but were denied) and it was back to normal by Pick 7, those subsequent 7 and on picks would not be impacted or influenced. Again, just examine the logs and determine where the time discrepancy started and ended.

    Initially, I believe the CIRA thought the entire run was screwed (hence the "TBR run is cancelled" note), but after further examination determined that only the first few picks were off the timeline. So they ran back the TBR only to the point where the system issue impacted the results, which is the correct way to do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  8. rlm

    rlm Established Member

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    Well unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I was on the road for much of today and am just getting caught up on the conversations.

    Regarding the cancelled TBR issue:

    CIRA is clearly figuring they are pissing off fewer people this way. I could see that yesterday they were re-reading my email rant I sent last year about a cancelled TBR session. So I'll give them credit for understanding the impact on customers and their reputation, then taking a step in the right direction by trying to impact as few people as possible. Unfortunately the genie never fits completely back in the bottle and someone is always going to be pissed off. In this case, Dynadot and Baremetal certainly have the right to be pissed as it is clearly thousands of dollars in pure profit gone from their pockets. It is also quite unfortunate that this seems to again only help the single least trusted TBR registrar, MyID. Had this been Dynadot or Baremetal bitching about getting screwed, would the results have been the same? I know that's a question EVERYONE wonders out loud.

    If this issue was specifically CIRA's fault _and_ it also affected only specific registrars, then I can understand the situation a little better and they're probably doing the right thing. However, if the problem equally affected all registrars, or more accurately I should say, if the odds of the problem affecting any particular TBR thread were equal, then the problem itself was random and it wasn't really unfair, it was just random. This the results should stand. I hope I explained that clearly. I strongly feel that not every technical error needs to be rewound because sometimes they're doing more damage than good. Sometimes you just gotta let the chips fall where they may and simply be transparent about it.

    So I still think there better be a full explanation of this technical issue, and a full explanation why this technical issue affected only specific registrars and that the odds of that error occurring to any one TBR thread were not equal.

    Oh, I would also like to know (CIRA, if you're listening), was this technical error discovered by CIRA as part of a regular weekly results audit by CIRA? Or was this only an issue after a registrar complained? I'm just saying, how many times has this error happened previously and a small registrar didn't raise a stink to get it fixed? Or how often has a registrar complained about results previously only to not get the same satisfaction of a do-over. I'm no registrar, but I just want to make sure that registrars are being treated equally too.

    Just my thoughts...

    Oh, and finally, in my rant least year to CIRA, I pleaded with them for absolute transparency, and that _they_ should communicate directly with affected registrants, not rely on registrars to do that. Since these particular domains were mostly still in auction (as far as I know), I'm not sure anyone will actually get an official statement from CIRA at all. If they were being truly transparent, they would publish it on the CIRA website under the TBR page. Somehow I doubt they want to publish their mistakes though, so I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  9. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    On that note, has anyone received any notification on what's going on with this week's auctions that were halted or removed?

    On Siber for example, they deleted all auction listings at around 1PM, give or take, but left the blank auction template up - now it's gone and I have yet to hear from Siber support on how this will work going forward.

    Hopefully they just didn't process the auctions as complete.... though I doubt it, as then they'd just be losing money. Then again, my Spidey sense is tingling that something is up. :watching:
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  10. rlm

    rlm Established Member

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    Oh, and regarding the whole monopoly/TBR discussion, I've thought about this many times in the past and believe I've even talked with some of you about my thoughts. To me it boils down to transparency and ethics.

    I think TBR was always treated as a little kickback/bonus to registrars. However, this system has its serious problems in transparency - and results in little to zero trust of some registrars. The argument has been made that you can choose your registrar if you don't like them. However due to the way TBR works, you really have no choice but to use them all, regardless if you want to do business with them or not.

    This is where a single source of TBR auctions would be beneficial, or, where CIRA should mandate that all TBR auctions be handled by the winning registrar, but that they must follow the same auction format and with complete 100% CIRA audited transparency (Including verifying that the winning bidder is a valid registrant not associated in any way with a registrar). I would take this any day over wondering if the registrars are shill bidding or keeping domains for themselves. So maybe the best way to make that happen is, let the registrars still fight it out for a domain name, but don't turn the domain name over to the registrar right away. CIRA should run (or outsource) the auction with complete transparency and consistent rules, including ensuring the buyer is legit. The winning funds would be credited to the registrar's CIRA account after the auction is run and a buyer makes payment (with a percentage left behind for running the auction). Then the domain gets released to the registrar and then assigned to the client. This would ensure true fairness and transparency between all registrars.

    Oh, and it was mentioned that you could become a registrar and just do TBR for yourself? Yeah, I've thought about that many times, and believed too that at one time this was allowed. Well, that's not allowed any more.

    Read this: https://www.cira.ca/policy/legal-agreement/registrar-agreement

    Specifically section 5.1 (p)
    5.1 Throughout the Term of this Agreement, the Registrar shall:
    (p)
    not, directly or indirectly, either individually or in partnership or jointly or in conjunction with or through any Person:

    1. in any way be involved in the practice known as domain warehousing with respect to Domain Name Registrations; or

    2. acquire Domain Name Registrations:
    (i) that are not directly connected with the Registrar’s business; or
    (ii)for the purpose of transferring them for immediate or deferred direct or indirect gain or profit.

    It is clearly not allowed. If a certain registrar ever gets caught (ahem, you all know who I'm talking about), where their secret TBR buyer we are all sure exists, is in any way a partial beneficial owner of said registrar, they would lose their registrar status. This is also assuming CIRA had the willpower to enforce that. But they'd first have to have the willpower to investigate it, and have the means to audit the registrar owners and registrants in order to be successful at enforcing it. So probably not going to do anything but scare new registrars off, not the entrenched ones.

    I agree in principle that a registrar should NOT be allowed to use TBR to acquire domains for their own portfolios. I think we've already seen what that situation is like. But I'm not 100% sure that a company should NOT be allowed to become a registrar for the sake of managing their own domain names though. It seems smart, efficient and harmless if you have a large portfolio (assuming the TBR part is off the table). However, I do think that it is generally wise to have separation between Registry/Registrar/Registrant, so I'm OK with that, even if it now excludes me from becoming a registrar. I think CIRA got that right. Next they need to audit & enforce some of those rules...

    BTW, I'm not sure where I stand on expiring domains going to TBR vs allowing Registrar's to auction them off. TBR seems less like stealing and keeping that separation between registrars and registrants. As far as price goes, it probably doesn't matter too much. So I think overall, I prefer TBR over pre-expiry auctions.
     
  11. rlm

    rlm Established Member

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    I think it makes sense for Sibername to re-run the auction, too many people bailed on the auctions since the word was out that it was all for nothing. So Sibername only stands to gain if they re-run it. But that means they've gotta get their shit together and reset it and send out some notifications. They're not exactly speedy with that kind of stuff.
     
  12. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    Not just that, but Siber cancelled the domain auctions early, as I was ready to "play it safe" by putting in bids anyway just prior to 2PM. Probably a lot of other people had the same idea.

    At 1:38 Siber sent out a mass email outlining that the CIRA had cancelled the this week's TBR run, which was probably after they had deleted their auction list.

    siber_1.JPG

    But I was still determined to play it safe and bid anyway (you never know) but I refreshed after 1PM, maybe closer to 1:30 and POOF!, my auction list was empty (can't remember the exact time - I got an email reply about it from Siber support at 1:43). Here's the reply from concerning my inquiry:

    siber_2.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  13. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    As per the status of this week's Siber auctions, I just got the mass email:

     
  14. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    Holy Friday GoDaddy Lowballers Batman!

    I'm working this afternoon and the phone/watch is buzzing constantly with ""You have an offer on your listing" emails from GoDaddy, but it's always $20 on XZY or $50 on ABC or $40 on DEF... I personally think it's the Friday lunch booze talking..

    So far no acceptances of my highballs, but then again that might be good news as GD seems to be chock full of deadbeats anyway.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  15. MapleDots

    MapleDots Top Contributor VIP

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    HeHe

    That's just me getting back at you for not letting me win our previous debate :smuggrin:




    :xf.wink:
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  16. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    You better up your bids then, as those are just providing me with "funny story" material.

    I especially like when I get a $20-$30 offer and then I counter at 4-figures.... I can just see his mind churning, thinking "Okay, he means business then... how about $40!".

    I send the same counter back, and maybe 15-20 minutes later I get one for $50 (he thinks he's breaking down my resolve), to which I repeat my original counter, and then sometimes I get a final $75 offer before he leaves me alone.

    Then again, this stupidity helps me as it raises the auction in the "number of bids" chart - I sold an auction like that with 6-7 $20-$40 bids to a company that probably thought it was a hot property.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  17. nafti

    nafti Upgraded Member Gold Account Blue Account ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I’ve been getting $20 offers on my 2 letters a lot recently. Normally when it’s that low, I just counter back at 50K. I never hear back! :)
     
  18. MapleDots

    MapleDots Top Contributor VIP

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    I use my gmail filters to the max, I only get notified when the auction offer is over $1000, everything else goes into my deadbeat folder.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  19. poing

    poing Frank Michlick DomainNameNews.com VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    GoDaddy is a registrar though and CIRA is a registry, And not all registrars like giving their expiring names stream to a competitor that is already eating up the market, that's why some of them operate their own marketplaces. If it were a centralized system of sorts, maybe it needs to allow other registrars to participate. The main reason to work with GoDaddy is the number of customers they can expose the inventory to.

    I thought I heard about issues with GoDaddy's auction system as well, but I might be wrong, as I'm only using it from time to time.

    I believe this was introduced after CIRA declined the application of a domain investor to become a registrar.
     
  20. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    The CIRA is similar ICANN and can no more start listing auctions for sale than they can, not to mention that GoDaddy is an American entity so that makes it a non-starter from the get-go.

    The CIRA's mandate is to promote and improve the Canadian online landscape, and does anyone think that killing all the Canadian TBR firms would be good for Canadian business? Same thing with allowing someone like MyID or Siber a monopolistic control over the TBR - all the others guys take a big revenue hit and possibly go out of business.

    The current system works, competition is good, and the TBR provides value to the Canadian marketplace and economy. The CIRA certainly needs to get the infrastructure toned up and keep a closer eye on any potential "funny business" that takes place, but there are no other "big problems".

    I've always realized that you need to be at least a basic registrar to get a TBR link, which is why I call out some of the (perceived) MyID shenanigans, and it was more of a business option + late garbage picker. But after a little investigation, I found there was absolutely no way to compete for the top names with MyID or Siber without investing a LOT of money.

    Those TBR businesses were built during the "crazy times" when even mediocre .CAs had value and many even ran their own end-user auctions for additional cash. Now that the market has matured and tightened considerably, that "easy money" is no longer there (and until I get my time machine completed) that makes new TBR entry a difficult (and likely foolhardy) proposition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  21. MapleDots

    MapleDots Top Contributor VIP

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    OMG, you actually believe that?

    TBR is dominated by two companies, how can that be fair. There needs to be a centralized interface where all registrars have an equal opportunity. A place where a new registrar has the same chance of getting premium.ca as the current duopoly.

    If I approach Canspace and say grab premium.ca for me I should have the opportunity through Canspace to bid on that domain right through until the end. I should qualify regardless of which registrar wins because I registered to bid on the domain. It should now go to a centralized interface where all participants can bid regardless of registrar.

    Here is a quote from a registrar...

    "Our system works on the same first-come first-serve basis. Once you pre-book a TBR domain with us, no one else can order that TBR domain name"

    What bullshit is that? How is that fair for anyone, the whole system is a convoluted mess.

    How can the highest bidder not win a domain just because it was picked up by a registrar with a faster connection. Premium.ca comes up in TBR, I want it, I should be able to bid on it regardless of where it goes, in a true free market economy the highest bidder wins.

    The entire TBR process is a joke, you call it fair? What the heck are implying?
    Have you really put yourself into an end users shoes trying get get a particular domain?

    What chance does an end user have to grab a domain? An end user who does not participate in TBR and is willing to outbid the others?

    So myid picks it up, wholesale is 8k. End user approaches the wholesaler and is quoted 75k. How the hell is that fair?
    Why should that end user not have been able to bid 9k and outbid the wholesaler?

    .ca is for every Canadian, we can all register one except if it ends up on TBR, then it's going to be monopolized by a duopoly!!

    Seriously, this is your version of fair?

    If this works for you, it sure as hell does not work for me!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  22. poing

    poing Frank Michlick DomainNameNews.com VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    You make an interesting point that kinda came up during the board elections this year too. In the ICANN world, ICANN and registries are separate entities, in the CIRA world they are not:

    ICANN:
    • regulator (ICANN)
    • registry (now also split between registry owner and backend operator)
    • registrar
    • reseller
    • registrant

    dot CA:
    • regulator/registry
    • registrar
    • reseller
    • registrant

    ccTLDs have many different models on how they are run.
     
  23. DomainRecap

    DomainRecap Top Contributor VIP

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    The system is absolutely fair and no one can dispute that. At X hours and Y minutes, the CIRA releases the .CA hounds and it's open game, and up to the TBR registrar's infrastructure and number of server links to get the top domains. It's been proven fair because every few weeks one of the have not's who don't take the TBR as seriously (NamesPro, FastWeb, Dot-CA, Baremetal, Webnames, etc.) are still able to pull a major upset and grabs the top domain, and far more often a true premium in the top 5.

    If you're cheap and run off a 10-year old server with a single link and software code from 1998, you're not going to do well, but those who have heavily invested in infrastructure, software and links naturally rule the roost. The best achieve the best.

    How is that different than any other business sector? Do you rail against every market leader, from groceries to software to computers to TVs to cell phones to automobiles to houses, and back again? When did you get this misconception that the system was "fair" and that a company with a single employee and 2-cents in their pocket *must* be artificially promoted to the same level of a Microsoft or Apple or Toyota?

    It's called CAPITALISM, and what you're advocating is closer to socialism, where the gov't entirely subsides the TBR from our tax money, and there is no reason for registrars to compete or spend or hire or improve.

    Bad for taxpayers, terrible for the economy, but I guess it would be good for you, right? Let's do it!

    P.S. You act like this is a closed system, when any Canadian can freely sign up with any TBR provider and bid against the "wholesaler hordes". Has someone banned you from using their system or something, as I have no trouble and I am on every TBR provider known to man.

    If you "don't take part in the TBR" then that person has no one to blame but themselves.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  24. MapleDots

    MapleDots Top Contributor VIP

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    I will take you to task on that statement....

    In the real world Google and Amazon would own all dropped .ca domains because they own the fastest servers right?
    Only their clients would have the ability to own these domains but only if they were fortunate enough to register for the opportunity to bid in advance.

    This is correct, right?

    This is your version of fair?
     
  25. aactive

    aactive Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    They would also need the script/technology, server connections and of course, the desire to want to do it.
     

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