discuss Domaining....What Keeps you in the Game?

[ThatNameGuy]

First...i'd like to apologize to those of my friends who are offended by my referring to domaining as a Game, but rest assured it's just a euphemism (intended to amuse). Like no two snowflakes being exactly alike, no two domainers are here for the exact same reasons.

I know some of you are here to make a living, put a roof over your heads and to put food on your table. Some of you are here part time and simply enjoy domaining like it's a puppy or your best friend. Then some of you are here because you're a hobbyist, and it's no different than those who enjoy the slots, blackjack, or the lottery.

I'm here because I enjoy a challenge, especially the challenge of learning about something new and looking for ways to improve it and make it better. This in addition to the fact that I've been naming things all my life from businesses, to dogs, to boats, to nicknames to regions of the world like "757" a rebranding of what was formerly known as "Hampton Roads".


I know some of you have been around this industry since 2000 or before, but I need to remind you My Mantra is "Make Something Happen" for which I registered the domain almost 20 years ago. Like I said, I've been naming things my whole life and that's what keeps me in the game. What keeps you in the game?

 

[Ategy]

The entire paragraph I quoted before is bound to evoke reactions that will be off topic and set further bad blood between you and some members. Unnecessary.
Edit: looks like it was reported and just deleted by mods. Let's carry on.

Oh wow .. what a surprise .. yet another post where @ThatNameGuy starts a random conversation .. but AGAIN .. with the actual true purpose of trashing others while continuing to claim relevance by boasting completely non-relevant things he's done in the past ... For the 1,000,000th time .. just because you named some random businesses does not mean in any way that you know anything about the domain industry. If anything all you've proven with this and all your other posts is how little you understand domains and the industry.

...the "Give Away" model (forget it's a domain) reminds me of when I was a kid (12-16) years old and I would shovel (snow) driveways and walkways in my neighborhood. I lived in a residential neighborhood consisting of about 60-75 homes just north of Washington DC. When it snowed I would start shoveling a neighbors driveway, and when they came home I'd have most of it done. When they said they hadn't asked for me to shovel their driveway I'd say, that's OK I wasn't going to charge you, I wanted to do it, I had nothing to do, and I needed the exercise anyway. Well guess what...they insisted on paying me, and when asked how much, I'd say I didn't know, and invariably they would give me more than what I would have asked for....see they didn't want to get a reputation for being cheap. How could this model possibly work where I give away domains that cost me $8? I don't know Derek, but it may be worth a try.

Oh wow .. now there's "innovation" !!! .. Seriously .. so essentially you're diminishing the perceived value of domains to ZERO while the rest of us work to actually get end-users to see and understand the VALUE in domains!

Not only that .. but now it seems your new business model is to childishly guilt people into paying you for fear that they'll get a bad reputation for looking cheap? You keep pointing fingers at others, but maybe it's time you look at yourself in the mirror!

All I see here is you planning to disrupt the domain industry .. by turning it into a joke.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Oh wow .. what a surprise .. yet another post where @ThatNameGuy starts a random conversation .. but AGAIN .. with the actual true purpose of trashing others while continuing to claim relevance by boasting completely non-relevant things he's done in the past ... For the 1,000,000th time .. just because you named some random businesses does not mean in any way that you know anything about the domain industry. If anything all you've proven with this and all your other posts is how little you understand domains and the industry.



Oh wow .. now there's "innovation" !!! .. Seriously .. so essentially you're diminishing the perceived value of domains to ZERO while the rest of us work to actually get end-users to see and understand the VALUE in domains!

Not only that .. but now it seems your new business model is to childishly guilt people into paying you for fear that they'll get a bad reputation for looking cheap? You keep pointing fingers at others, but maybe it's time you look at yourself in the mirror!

All I see here is you planning to disrupt the domain industry .. by turning it into a joke.

"All i see here is you planning to disrupt the domain industry..by turning it into a joke."

Now you're catching on. When "outsiders" and "end users" learn of the hoarding that's occurring in this industry to the detriment of consumers and businesses they're shocked

Thanks for identifying and giving credence to my intent. I'm blessed to have experienced a similar transformation in another industry that left all but the truly corrupt bad actors SAFE and more profitable than ever before For the record, you're not a corrupt bad actor, but you are sadly misinformed

 

[Ategy]

the hoarding that's occurring in this industry

Can you once and for all explain in detail what on earth you mean by that ???

Because you keep on repeating it over and over and as far as I know, you're the only person that see what we all call "holding" instead as what you call "hoarding"!?

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Can you once and for all explain in detail what on earth you mean by that ???

Because you keep on repeating it over and over and as far as I know, you're the only person that see what we all call "holding" instead as what you call "hoarding"!?

"Hoarding" is not a term that I made up, but a term used by Verisign to refer to the likes of major brokers like HugeDomains.com, DomainMarket.com, BuyDomains.com, DominionDomains.com etc. that hold, and have held millions of domains to the detriment of consumers and businesses.

As a perfect example, when Dominion Domains a local broker from my hometown learned I was interested in a domain HomeSweet.homes I could have bought a year earlier for about $100, they jacked the price up to $64,000 thinking I'd be fool enough to buy it When I met with them personally about what I considered the most "unethical" behavior I'd experienced in 50 year of business, they offered to give me the domain? Guess what Ategy, I refused it, and I'm guessing you don't know why....but it has everything to do with principal and my ethics. btw, I have all this in writing in case anyone doubts my story. While this is as much an example of "greed" as it is about "hoarding", Dominion Domains is holding/hoarding tens of thousands of domains to the detriment of consumers and businesses.

Then just one more example...last night I was looking to register a business name for a friend who intends to get into the "Brand" business. I ended up buying (hand registering) for her MidAtlanticBrands.com. I bought it for 7.99 and registered it at Epik. However, before I did that I tried for a few other names because she lives like I do on the "Atlantic" Ocean. My first choice was to try AtlanticBrands.com, but I was pretty sure that wouldn't be available. When I discovered it wasn't, but when I learned it might be for sale I keyed it to my URL, and it took me to DomainMarket.com where they have it for sale for $24,888. Then when I checked HosterStats, it appears they've owned/hoarded it for 20+ years....i wonder why The other point I want to make here is that I was able to hand register a more than suitable domain for my friends business for which she's very thankful. Regardless of what anyone thinks Ategy, I'm able to register names like this all day long to the detriment of the hoarders, and if that's not opportunity, I don't know what is. I guess that's why I, "Smile for No Good Reason"

Finally Ategy...i don't see you or what you do in this industry as "hoarding", but that doesn't mean it isn't occuring elsewhere. I think I understand what you do although it's not for me, and I hope you will try and understand what I do. Thanks

 

[bmugford]

"Hoarding" is not a term that I made up, but a term used by Verisign to refer to the likes of major brokers like HugeDomains.com, DomainMarket.com, BuyDomains.com, DominionDomains.com etc. that hold, and have held millions of domains to the detriment of consumers and businesses.

Then just one more example...last night I was looking to register a business name for a friend who intends to get into the "Brand" business. I ended up buying (hand registering) for her MidAtlanticBrands.com. I bought it for 7.99 and registered it at Epik. However, before I did that I tried for a few other names because she lives like I do on the "Atlantic" Ocean. My first choice was to try AtlanticBrands.com, but I was pretty sure that wouldn't be available. When I discovered it wasn't, but when I learned it might be for sale I keyed it to my URL, and it took me to DomainMarket.com where they have it for sale for $24,888. Then when I checked HosterStats, it appears they've owned/hoarded it for 20+ years....i wonder why The other point I want to make here is that I was able to hand register a more than suitable domain for my friends business for which she's very thankful. Regardless of what anyone thinks Ategy, I'm able to register names like this all day long to the detriment of the hoarders, and if that's not opportunity, I don't know what is. I guess that's why I, "Smile for No Good Reason"

Finally Ategy...i don't see you or what you do in this industry as "hoarding", but that doesn't mean it isn't occuring elsewhere. I think I understand what you do although it's not for me, and I hope you will try and understand what I do. Thanks

You really should drop this "hoarding" crap. You go on and on about it like a broken record.
It really hinders any productive discussion.

It also doesn't make much sense coming from someone who also owns like 1000+ domains.
Are you trying to draw some line about "hoarding" that doesn't apply to you somehow?

If anything people who make steady sales are doing less "hoarding".

As far as domain pricing goes, people can ask what they want and the market will decide.
Clearly no end user thinks that domain is worth that asking price.

Brad

 

[ThatNameGuy]

You really should drop this "hoarding" crap. You go on and on about it like a broken record.
It really hinders any productive discussion.

It also doesn't make much sense coming from someone who also owns like 1000+ domains.
Are you trying to draw some line about "hoarding" that doesn't apply to you somehow?

If anything people who make steady sales are doing less "hoarding".

As far as domain pricing goes, people can ask what they want and the market will decide.
Clearly no end user thinks that domain is worth that asking price.

Brad

When domainers sell just 2% of their inventory annually, the other 98% is kept out of circulation. If that was done with our money supply as a Nation we'd go broke. I don't know about you, but I have a degree in Economics and the math is really simple.

Here is another example that I just ran into a few minutes ago....you recall in my previous post that DomainMarket.com has the domain AtlanticBrands.com for sale for $24,888 and they've held that domain for at least 20 years yet I was able to hand register MidAtlanticBrands.com for $7.99 earlier. Now put in your URL MidAtlanticLaw.com and guess what? It leads you to the very same broker, and they're asking $69,888 for that name This all wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that "brokers" like DomainMarket.com hold millions of domains locking the average "end user" out of the market. Ironically I found a slightly different workaround for my client that I can't share, but hoarding domains like this essentially monopolizes the market which in many cases is considered illegal behavior. Do you know what a monopoly is Brad? Think about it

 

[branding]

When domainers sell just 2% of their inventory annually, the other 98% is kept out of circulation. If that was done with our money supply as a Nation we'd go broke. I don't know about you, but I have a degree in Economics and the math is really simple.

Here is another example that I just ran into a few minutes ago....you recall in my previous post that DomainMarket.com has the domain AtlanticBrands.com for sale for $24,888 and they've held that domain for at least 20 years yet I was able to hand register MidAtlanticBrands.com for $7.99 earlier. Now put in your URL MidAtlanticLaw.com and guess what? It leads you to the very same broker, and they're asking $69,888 for that name This all wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that "brokers" like DomainMarket.com hold millions of domains locking the average "end user" out of the market. Ironically I found a slightly different workaround for my client that I can't share, but hoarding domains like this essentially monopolizes the market which in many cases is considered illegal behavior. Do you know what a monopoly is Brad? Think about it

The flaw in your reasoning is that if domainers/brokers would not be holding all these names they would most probably have been registered by end-users and be off the market 'forever'.

The aftermarket provides a fair opportunity for every business to buy quality domains for market value. I see it as a positive.

Huge domains isnt that unreasonable in terms of pricing imo. For a couple of K you can afford a nice fit for your brand.

Even if a domain is held for personal use or by a hobbyist the name could be off the market forever.

I agree there are plenty of decent domains to be handregistered. Maybe not always the best option, but definitely suitable for a lot of companies.

Thing is, that's approaching this business from the wrong perspective. That's end-user thinking. And even if you are handregging as a domainer (which is fine) you are looking to sell at a decent profit init?

If there's value in something there will always be an aftermarket. Domaining really isn't that much different from other businesses in the grand scheme of things.

 

[branding]

Sorry. Double posted.

 

[Joe N]

"Hoarding" is not a term that I made up, but a term used by Verisign

Could you share the link where Verisign actually uses the word "hoarding" in this context? @Bob Hawkes has told you more than once that they never used this word in the article you're referring to.

 

[Joe N]

When domainers sell just 2% of their inventory annually, the other 98% is kept out of circulation. If that was done with our money supply as a Nation we'd go broke. I don't know about you, but I have a degree in Economics and the math is really simple.

What percent of your portfolio do you sell annually?

In your mind, when does a domain investor become a hoarder?

Why is Mike Mann a hoarder while you are not? Is it the quantity of domains held?

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Could you share the link where Verisign actually uses the word "hoarding" in this context? @Bob Hawkes has told you more than once that they never used this word in the article you're referring to.

"Hoarding" is a term that's been used around the domain industry for years. Just Google "domain hoarding", and you'll see what I mean. Do you know what a "Monopoly" is Joe? These aren't words I make up, but words that describe despicable behavior. I suppose this is one of your heroes

 

[Bob Hawkes]

It is a good question @Joe Nichols asks. How do you define hoarder, @ThatNameGuy?

• So if I have 400 domain names and sell say 8 this year, and have them all at reasonable prices, and have landers for them all, and listed somewhere easy to purchase, and professionally interact, am I a hoarder?
• What if I have only 20 domain names, mainly into collecting names i like, have half of them listed, am I a hoarder?
• If I have 1000 names but don't have them listed or with landers, so really not easy for anyone to buy them, would I be a hoarder then?
• If I have 10,000 names but try one year to sell them, and then any I have not negotiated on I let drop, am I a hoarder?
• A company has 200,000 names. Are they automatically a hoarder despite how proactive they are in trying to sell as many as possible?
• I sell only 1 domain a year, from say 10,000, because I hold out for really high prices. But I try actively to sell, and use some of them for monetized development, would I be a hoarder?
• What if I get lots of business ideas, that I have visions of developing, so hold say 100 names without trying to sell them, and realistically most I will never use. Am I a hoarder?

I think you will see defining domain hoarder is difficult. I am going to an art gallery in a few hours time. I am pretty sure that their sell-through rates are really low, because they do kind of interesting things with local, but not yet well known, artists. So are they art hoarders?

I used to know two kindly seniors who liked to scrounge the yard sales and auctions and eventually built up enough nice collectables to fill up their garage "shop" in their home. They gave a few away (they gave me one once), they sold enough to just about break even is my guess. Most they never sold. Were they hoarders of collectables? I hope not, as they are really nice people.

So if hoarding is so hard to define, I would argue, maybe we would be better off to concentrate on ways to creatively and effectively improve sell-through rates? I think so.

Bob

 

[Joe N]

It is a good question @Joe Nichols asks. How do you define hoarder, @ThatNameGuy?

• So if I have 400 domain names and sell say 8 this year, and have them all at reasonable prices, and have landers for them all, and listed somewhere easy to purchase, and professionally interact, am I a hoarder?
• What if I have only 20 domain names, mainly into collecting names i like, have half of them listed, am I a hoarder?
• If I have 1000 names but don't have them listed or with landers, so really not easy for anyone to buy them, would I be a hoarder then?
• If I have 10,000 names but try one year to sell them, and then any I have not negotiated on I let drop, am I a hoarder?
• A company has 200,000 names. Are they automatically a hoarder despite how proactive they are in trying to sell as many as possible?
• I sell only 1 domain a year, from say 10,000, because I hold out for really high prices. But I try actively to sell, and use some of them for monetized development, would I be a hoarder?
• What if I get lots of business ideas, that I have visions of developing, so hold say 100 names without trying to sell them, and realistically most I will never use. Am I a hoarder?

I think you will see defining domain hoarder is difficult. I am going to an art gallery in a few hours time. I am pretty sure that their sell-through rates are really low, because they do kind of interesting things with local, but not yet well known, artists. So are they art hoarders?

I used to know two kindly seniors who liked to scrounge the yard sales and auctions and eventually built up enough nice collectables to fill up their garage "shop" in their home. They gave a few away (they gave me one once), they sold enough to just about break even is my guess. Most they never sold. Were they hoarders of collectables? I hope not, as they are really nice people.

So if hoarding is so hard to define, I would argue, maybe we would be better off to concentrate on ways to creatively and effectively improve sell-through rates? I think so.

Bob

Great points, Bob. I'll even add one more:

• What about businesses that own more domain names than most investors, but don't actively sell them, and only carry them for investment purposes, or to maintain a competitive advantage?

 

[Joe N]

"Hoarding" is not a term that I made up, but a term used by Verisign

Could you share the link where Verisign actually uses the word "hoarding" in this context? @Bob Hawkes has told you more than once that they never used this word in the article you're referring to.

"Hoarding" is a term that's been used around the domain industry for years.

Yes, but where does Verisign use the word? Please provide a link to the article.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

What about businesses that own more domain names than most investors, but don't actively sell them, and only carry them for investment purposes, or to maintain a competitive advantage?

Thanks. Or to add yet one more, what about those who hold names simply for defensive purposes. In a sense they are hoarding them?

My main point, on which I think we agree, is that calling people hoarders is not only unfair, but quite apart from that does not contribute to the discussion. It is a term that has a connotation that is negative, but I don't think is a fair one to apply to people who are creating and evaluating interesting name combinations, pricing them reasonably, and taking steps to see that they are noticed.

Bob

 

[bmugford]

Bob,

Your questions basically show it is impossible to quantify what "hoarding" means.

The only certain thing is whatever subjective definition is applied it will somehow never apply to Bulloney.

Brad

 

[Brands.International]

Domaining....What Keeps you in the Game?

For me, it is financial aspect of the game - I see domain names as a form of long-term investment, with very limited liquidity built-in, but with very high potential of appreciation in time

 

[Bob Hawkes]

but hoarding domains like this essentially monopolizes the market which in many cases is considered illegal behavior

Verisign does not in any way say the process of buying and selling names is illegal. They say that the aftermarkete is unregulated, because remember their main purpose, it would seem, would be to have both the price caps and their restrictions on direct selling, perhaps, lifted.

They say that it does not add anything for end users (a point I strongly disagree with) but you should not characterize it as illegal.

The only thing that is illegal is holding a name which is protected by intellectual property rights of some other person. There are both the UDRP process and the anti-squatting laws in place to deal with that.

There is much competition in the aftermarket, both among registrars, individual investors, and marketplaces. The domain aftermarket is only partially regulated, but it is not a monopoly.

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

It is a good question @Joe Nichols asks. How do you define hoarder, @ThatNameGuy?

• So if I have 400 domain names and sell say 8 this year, and have them all at reasonable prices, and have landers for them all, and listed somewhere easy to purchase, and professionally interact, am I a hoarder?
• What if I have only 20 domain names, mainly into collecting names i like, have half of them listed, am I a hoarder?
• If I have 1000 names but don't have them listed or with landers, so really not easy for anyone to buy them, would I be a hoarder then?
• If I have 10,000 names but try one year to sell them, and then any I have not negotiated on I let drop, am I a hoarder?
• A company has 200,000 names. Are they automatically a hoarder despite how proactive they are in trying to sell as many as possible?
• I sell only 1 domain a year, from say 10,000, because I hold out for really high prices. But I try actively to sell, and use some of them for monetized development, would I be a hoarder?
• What if I get lots of business ideas, that I have visions of developing, so hold say 100 names without trying to sell them, and realistically most I will never use. Am I a hoarder?

I think you will see defining domain hoarder is difficult. I am going to an art gallery in a few hours time. I am pretty sure that their sell-through rates are really low, because they do kind of interesting things with local, but not yet well known, artists. So are they art hoarders?

I used to know two kindly seniors who liked to scrounge the yard sales and auctions and eventually built up enough nice collectables to fill up their garage "shop" in their home. They gave a few away (they gave me one once), they sold enough to just about break even is my guess. Most they never sold. Were they hoarders of collectables? I hope not, as they are really nice people.

So if hoarding is so hard to define, I would argue, maybe we would be better off to concentrate on ways to creatively and effectively improve sell-through rates? I think so.

Bob

Bob...Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about "pornography" in 1963, "Maybe I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" Hoarding of domains isn't a whole lot different. The context in which Verisign spoke was with regards to huge domain portfolios held by the likes of HugeDomains.com that has over 4 Million Domains, Afternic aka Go Daddy who has Millions, DomainMarket.com and the list goes on.

Bob, the portfolios like Brad and a few others here on NP own are miniscule compared to the real power players in the industry. It's these players that Verisign said are hidden in plain site, and they're so well hidden that even NP members don't notice. They're the hoarders of domains that even NFIB and the NASB don't know about. However, much to the chagrin of some of the members here, I plan on making them fully and completely aware of these hoarders. Organizations like NFIB and NASB are obligated to their members to make them aware of the situation...our friend Joe Nichols doubts I'll be meeting with them, but I think you know me Bob, and when I set my mind to something it gets done

Joe also thinks that I think that domaining is a game of luck Have you ever heard me call it luck Bob?

"Smile for No Good Reason"

 

[Joe N]

Organizations like NFIB and NASB are obligated to their members to make them aware of the situation...our friend Joe Nichols doubts I'll be meeting with them, but I think you know me Bob, and when I set my mind to something it gets done.

When is the meeting? Be sure to keep us updated.

 

[Joe N]

Joe also thinks that I think that domaining is a game of luck Have you ever heard me call it luck Bob?

Apologies, Rich. Somehow I got the impression we could just say things on here without having any proof to back it up.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Verisign does not in any way say the process of buying and selling names is illegal. They say that the aftermarkete is unregulated, because remember their main purpose, it would seem, would be to have both the price caps and their restrictions on direct selling, perhaps, lifted.

They say that it does not add anything for end users (a point I strongly disagree with) but you should not characterize it as illegal.

The only thing that is illegal is holding a name which is protected by intellectual property rights of some other person. There are both the UDRP process and the anti-squatting laws in place to deal with that.

There is much competition in the aftermarket, both among registrars, individual investors, and marketplaces. The domain aftermarket is only partially regulated, but it is not a monopoly.

Bob

Bob...you're taking what I said out of context. I said "monopolization" of anything is in many ways illegal. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[ThatNameGuy]

When is the meeting? Be sure to keep us updated.

Oh...since when do I need to report to you? I didn't go to Namescon in Austin this year. Any idea why? It was a shock to many here when I went to Vegas last year. Have you ever gone to NamesCon Joe...i'd luv to meet you...I've never met a stranger

What Keeps me In the Game?....Honestly.... people like you, Brad and a few others God Bless!

 

[Joe N]

Oh...since when do I need to report to you?

You don't. And honestly, it's better for me that way since I enjoy being right.

Joe...i'd luv to meet you...

Thanks Rich. I'll let you know if I'm ever coming to the 757.

 

[bmugford]

Bob, the portfolios like Brad and a few others here on NP own are miniscule compared to the real power players in the industry. It's these players that Verisign said are hidden in plain site, and they're so well hidden that even NP members don't notice. They're the hoarders of domains that even NFIB and the NASB don't know about. However, much to the chagrin of some of the members here, I plan on making them fully and completely aware of these hoarders. Organizations like NFIB and NASB are obligated to their members to make them aware of the situation...our friend Joe Nichols doubts I'll be meeting with them, but I think you know me Bob, and when I set my mind to something it gets done

If anyone is a "hoarder" it is Versign. As the registry they have a monopoly and control over every .COM.
They don't even own the extension. They are just allowed to operate it under contract.

That monopoly is a license to print money. For them to complain about it is ridiculous in the first place.

The .COM price would go down massively if the extension was open for public bidding. They are really adding limited value to the system themselves.

Brad