discuss Domain Microfinance Program

[Rob Monster]

As some folks here know, I am a big fan of Digital Empowerment projects that scale.

Over the last year, I have seen lives transformed by people becoming successful domain investors on a bootstrap.

I have been discussing with a few folks about introducing a Domain Microfinance program for emerging economies and for young entrepreneurs.

This could be a Digital Empowerment strategy for helping people to bootstrap domain portfolios. The idea was inspired by a discussion with a young Angolan.

The idea is this:

- People apply to get a microfinance grant. To get the grant, they have to verify their identity. This is done in order to prevent repeat applicants.

- Domains registered are limited to .com. With a budget of as little as $30, right now that is about 5 .com domains at a promo rate of just $5.49.

- The domains are powered by an SSL powered landing pages which domain owners can optimize and then use to sell or lease.

- Once the grant participants generate a certain level of sales or leases, e.g. $100, they can request an interest-free domain loan based on their portfolio.

 

[Rob Monster]

Everyday I wake up to inquiries from India, Nigeria, Indonesia, South America etc... 99.999% of these inquiries are not going anywhere, but doesn't mean these people are not useful, or can't have a good business plan, it's just they are handcuffed, and have limited means.

Why not create a modern day incubator, much like what CMGI used to be, make it part of the Epik enterprise, do good, and add share capital at the same time. I don't think someone is going to get far with $30, but $500-$1000 they can probably move mountains in some places, where as in North America that might cover the dinner bill for a night out with the team.

You have everything in house the domains, the hosting, and many more tools, most people have ideas, but not the financial resources to see them thru.

You are totally right -- I am saying that the grants would start at $30 but someone who wants to build some other kind of digital empowerment solution could get more. The applicant could indicate whether they wish to make their application proprietary or whether they would make the finished product replicable for others. There is no right answer there since wealth and capitalism are not inherently bad.

 

[Kai W.]

It's important to clarify a premise: Investment or Production.
If the liquid of this industry is only between investors, then you will eventually fail, even if you do very well.
If the Domain can get a loan, first it needs to be productive, can really join the market, and second, the popularity of programming ability is very important.
So,I don't think it's appropriate to develop loans now. But I appreciate and understand what you're doing.

 

[oldtimer]

this is a question of intelligence of a person and effort in parallel.

And what makes you think that some of those people are not as smart as everyone else here.

In some places people are just deprived of all opportunities and are stuck in a never ending cycle and just need to be given a chance to get themselves out of poverty.

I just can't understand why some of the members here who are themselves very well off want to prevent others from receiving any help.

 

[JB Lions]

And what makes you think that some of those people are not as smart as everyone else here.

In some places people are just deprived of all opportunities and are stuck in a never ending cycle and just need to be given a chance to get themselves out of poverty.

I just can't understand why some of the members here who are themselves very well off want to prevent others from receiving any help.

It's because you're not reading/paying attention.

This isn't a group thing. This isn't a group thing. This isn't a group thing.............

As far as being smart and all that. Some people in this world are just going to be better than other people at some things. I have issues with heights, I will never be a trapeze artist. Some people are just going to be better at domaining. For those that get it, they would be doing it on their own.

Again, they wouldn't be involved in this type of group. And pick a number, 10, 50, 500, whatever. Some will rise to the top, that's how it goes. There will be people that will just be there, doing not much of anything, hoping to feast off those that do. That's the definition of parasite.

As far as poverty, this isn't the thing to get into. High failure rate. Some will never get an offer. It might take years. Stuff we've already gone over to death in this thread. Those in this group that are doing well, will go out on their own. Then group falls apart.

@oldtimer is right. Set aside your biases. A lot of these folks are smart, articulate and willing to hustle. Often they are operating in an environment that is not helping them. We could debate the reason. Go visit Gran Canaria and enjoy Las Palmas or venture out. It is a wonderful place. It is dirt cheap. The youth employment there is 40-60% depending on who you ask. Many of these kids are smart, and are not all lazy.

@franka46

As what was mentioned already. We have people in this forum from those areas putting in work and making money.

If somebody is literally broke/in poverty, you don't go investing money you don't really have into something with a high failure rate, where most of the names sold are not in your native language.

 

[jberryhill]

What kind of intake/screening questions would you use to root out the bottom-feeding parasites?

"Would you like to be a domainer? (Yes/No)"






Just kidding...

 

[Blitzpotz]

When this thread opened I voted losing your butt in an impulse thinking of Epik and Rob. What are they able to add to their working days?

Widening the horizon such a program is without alternative if you think beyond domains but think of development aid. In Europe we read daily reports about African refugees - Rob initially spoke about African entrepreneurs - who are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea on their way to Europe. These guys migrate because they don´t see a chance to exist humanely in their homeland, of infinite reasons.

Every additional chance for these people in the Third World to survive in their homeland is absolutely to support.

 

[Blitzpotz]

Do some investors simply drop their expiring domains instead of selling them on NP for xx when considering the time and effort involved? I do. If there is a way to easily push the domains to Epik, then we can donate unwanted expiring domains to Epik whose team can select those with potential.

I would take part with my expiring names listed in my signature, adding. I don´t list these just to earn 10 or 15 or 25 bucks when members discover names with value for them. It´s a community thing and makes me feel better if a name doesn´t drop into Nirvana but in a member´s name bucket. However, I am aware that the big majority of expiring names of a faithful domain collector like me is worthless.

For newbies in a Domain Name Development Aid Project there should be a filter deleting the real crap from such donation lists. The aim should should be to enable new namepreneurs in the Third World starting with a quite good domain as their seed capital.

 

[oldtimer]

the premise of vetting and teaching as being critical is 100% valid and duly noted.

Rob, as far as teaching and training goes, you yourself can write a crash course on domaining (with some help and input from the more experienced members here) to get the participants started on the right track, remember that they don't all have to become experts on day one just teach them the basics and give them a little time to learn the rest, as we all know somethings they can only learn once they start to interact with other domainers here and only after they have done a few sales on their own. Perhaps NamePros can make a special section for this project so that participants can ask questions and interact with some volunteer experienced domainers. As some of the more talented participants become more experienced you can use them to supervise and guide the rest. As I have mentioned before it's very important to make the program as self sustainable as possible both as far as education, finances, and supervision so that way the program can continue indefinitely as new participants join in in the future.

As far as vetting the applicants goes, as already mentioned you want to give first priority to honest, smart, motivated, and productive people who have a better chance of succeeding so that way they can help lift others out of poverty in their community, but as a devout Christian as you are lets not forget to also give a second chance to those who might have been caught in a bad situation due to the circumstances and the environment that they had to grow up in, so also give a chance to those who are willing to repent and help them make a fresh start in their life.

IMO

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

With a budget of as little as $30, right now that is about 5 .com domains at Epik's rate of just $5.49

I started my domaining in 2008 exactly from ~$30 and my thoughts were about MACROfinance... )

 

[Rob Monster]

I started my domaining in 2008 exactly from ~$30 and my thoughts were about MACROfinance... )

There is a case study right there. If you will write it up, or video a testimonial, that is the type of story we need for this site. "How I got started?".

 

[garptrader]

One must admit that acquiring quality inventory is very competitive yet the vast majority of the world does not place much importance on the value of a domain name. Most domain buyers despite spending thousands of dollars on all kinds of routine business expenses (legal, IT, marketing, travel, accounting, etc) have a domain budget of $xx. What percentage of domain investors made a middle-class income their first year of domaining? it is my view that any effort to want to spread technological awareness and skills to less developed economies should focus on website development and design skills which are valued more broadly than aftermarket domains.

 

[oldtimer]

This is a disaster in the making.

If this program is designed and implemented correctly with the genuine goal of helping those who are disadvantaged, then perhaps we should all give it a chance.

Although sometimes I get second thoughts as to whether it's a good idea to turn "honest, smart, motivated , and productive people" into Domainers.

Although given the lack of opportunity in those places any help is better than nothing. IMO

 

[JB Lions]

@JB Lions - Here is what you either don't get, or are deliberately overlooking for reasons I don't know.

Two points:

Many of these folks live in countries where there is not just poverty. There is also extreme wealth. There are successful business owners. They need .COM domains too. Who will bring them to them? Well, why not locals. If a new 5-star luxury resort hotel is being permitted in Bali, would you know that? I wouldn't. A local might. Well, that local can secure the perfect domain and bring it to the resort operator's attention. Win-win.

The rate limiting time for finding domain buyers is often time -- time to pore over drop lists, and time to see who is the logical buyer for these domains. With 100,000 .COM dropping every day, there are plenty of domains that are being dropped and not picked up. There are also plenty being dropped by the big dropcatchers because they got no traction for $3000 or whatever. Buy for $5, sell for $100 or whatever.

This is a story of crawl, walk, run. If that bores you, so be it.

This is more nonsense posting.

They need .coms...........then they can buy them now. They can't buy them because they were never sold by poverty stricken folks that never sold a domain in their life? What? And people who buy 5 star luxury hotels don't know about buying domains? Having a site?

Then people completely new to this are going to find gems in those 100,000 that actual experienced domainers can't? And what is stopping them now from doing that? Again, people from those countries are already doing that, some already posting in this forum.

 

[oldtimer]

I would better focus to train people to be domain brokers, that will have much more value longterm, both for you and them ... just my 2 cents

That's a good idea that perhaps can complement this project at some point in the future, but I believe that if they start by selling out of the donated domain pool to begin with is a better way to train them. Everyone assumes that the domain pool is going to be made up of domains that have no value that people just threw away, so why not conduct a poll to see what kind of domains people here are willing to donate as far as quality and value, before making any judgments. Remember people don't have to donate hundreds of domains, just 2 or 3 good ones that have some resale potentials, considering the large number of well off domainers on this forum even if each person donated one good domain that can add up to be a big pool.

 

[Ategy]

The biggest challenge facing any potential emerging market domain investing system, is the significantly increased relative registration and renewal fees vs the purchasing power of potential local businesses.

I enjoy success because Western buyers are able to value domains at a significantly higher dollar amount than in emerging markets. It allows me to sell domains that cost me under $20 at closeout for 100x and above ... when considering the 1.5% average sell-through (I'm actually at less because most of my names aren't priced or listed, but I'm still profitable because some of my sales have been over 100x). So that effectively gives me about 50% return on investment ... but move that same sell-through rate over to an economy operating at 1/10, and suddenly you're operating at a huge loss .. SIGNIFICANTLY distant from anything close to breaking even.


This is what I feel is the tragedy with the lifting of pricing regulations on the old gTLD's like .org and even .com ... the argument is being made for existing organisations . .which is fine .. but the real losers are the developing nations who have not yet reached anything close to digital market saturation .. they will be the HUGE losers.

 

[Samer]

What's baseless is this rah rah stuff, pretending issues don't exist, and dodging them every single post. And when people do bring up potential issues, your typical response is basically a, oh, you don't care about the impoverished. Try being real.

Sounds like you’re counting them out, when I believe — the best is yet to come.
You see “rah rah stuff”, I see intelligent discourse.

 

[Samer]

I haven't counted anybody out. In fact, I've posted many times now we have people from all over the world, all levels of income doing domaining. You do need a little go-getter in your personality. This still isn't a mentor or group type business. This is investing, this is competition, this isn't for everybody.

I respect you think like that, and get that.

At the same time, I’m sooo much more optimistic.

I think this industry needs change. Plus being from finance, flexibility is never a bad thing...

Innovation, seldom is...

$30 is too low IMO.... it takes away from ”prestige”. DNAcademy itself, sells their course for hundreds. Personally, i have DNAcademy, and i love them.

 

[Ategy]

People seem to be giving @JB Lions a hard time ... it should be noted that I'm pretty sure he's not against the concept of helping people in need .. it's just that, like me .. the process as described so far is just too far from being realistic in any way. It'll be virtually impossible to stop fraudulent applications.

Beyond that .. the supporters of this movement somehow seem to be waving a magical wand and assuming it's anything but an extremely complex mountain to train someone to be a successful domain investor .. then you're also limiting them to a number of domains where even if the 1 in 100 who do climb that mountain will then need to roll a specific number on a 50 sided dice in order to break even.

The math .. the math .. the math ... it unfortunately just does not work here .. and that's just on the surface .. as you start to spell it all out there are added details that will actually reveal more odds against.

And it's not like the math even comes close .. it's so incredibly far off from working that it worries me how some see the model in it's current form could work.

The vast majority of domainers just don't make money .. it's just a sad unfortunate reality .. even if you have a great domain course .. most of the people coming out of that will not be successful because there are other important elements people must have a good grasp of in order to even have a chance of succeeding.


As I've mentioned above .. there are ways to improve the math .. but improving it does not mean good enough to work.


It seems now there's also talk of maybe using domains donated before they expire .. but it's got to be asked if a domainer allows a domain to expire, then is it really wise to suggest a newcomer renew it? When in fact it would actually cost them significantly more personal economic clout than the domainer who was going to let it expire? ($8.49 to someone in a developing nation is astronomically more expensive than it is to me here in Canada or someone in the EU or US)


I also saw the proposed form above and based on that it seems the target audience for the proposed program has shifted signifcantly to people who have already sold domains? I don't get that part? Seems like nothing about this is set .. and to be honest, it's feedback we leave now might not even apply to how the program will be in 12 hours!? lol


I'd love to leave more feedback and helpful suggestions, but so much has changed in the time I was at work! lol


Before even getting to the rest of the mathematical implausible stuff, I'm still really curious as to how there will be any realistic way to stop fraudulent applications?

 

[bmugford]

Some domain investors are benevolent. Those who are benevolent may choose to unload some number of non-strategic domains, with or without a tax benefit, because they believe in an idea. Great.

Other domainers are selfish but rational. They have expiry streams that go to Snapnames which gives them no value whatsoever. It would be entirely rational to send an expiry stream for charitable good.

And some domainers are selfish and irrational. Some will make money. Some will find fulfillment. Some will grow old and wait to die. Pity.

Well, to start with giving limited choices like that is a logical fallacy.

There are plenty of other options. For instance, benevolent and rational.

Many people run successful businesses and also donate or give to good causes. Maybe they think this idea is dubious and has limited chance of success for a large number of reasons.

Brad

 

[Rob Monster]

@Ategy.com

The core story is Digital Empowerment grants from Epik. We are internally funding what is essentially a marketing expense, choosing to invest in the masses, rather than celebrity endorsement, for example. The emphasis is on (1) bootstrap funding, (2) guidelines on acceptable use, and (3) training on best practices.

The secondary story is in a separate thread where I described a domain name search for use with the Goodwill of Domains. This parallel initiative could be a secondary source of funds with which a lot more Digital Empowerment grants could be funded.

Domains could be from many sources:

- Direct dropcach activity
- Donations from domain investors
- Registrar expiry streams

That is a brief summary.

 

[Lox]

Inspirational words of wisdom - domaining and taking chances (Hope) at something you didn’t understand how it works.

 

[wwwweb]

Okay, so lets scratch the geo...how about 'DlaminiUsedTires.com'? I'll save you some time, that is a popular name in South Africa. I've dealt with the 'nouveau riche' on many occasions and part of the marketing to a local money man or woman would consist greatly of the ego aspect (don't think about this like a western domain broker). There is a great divide between those trying to make $5 a day and those that make much more in those markets and a sharp individual can take advantage of the many situations that would present themselves.

I don't think this project is going to be easy by any means and I think there a lot of nuances here that people aren't grasping...there could be local/regional/national assistance to piggy back on this initiative as well as other types of 'help'. Rob alluded to the other 'facets' and it is not my place to speculate or say what I think they are but I do see several that aren't and wouldn't be apparent for a while if/when things get rolling.

My marketing skill set is significant. In two hours time I have convinced business to give me tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in FREE merchandise or services to use in marketing their business (including some of the largest automotive and restaurant entities). At one time I was one of a few dozen people in the US that knew how to successfully do this and it gave me a phenomenal life. I'll stop here before referring to myself as a 'marketing genius' out of modesty, but I assure you that if I can see potential in this project (keep in mind there may be more than one way to define 'potential' and/or success), there is.

Whether or not the logistics can be worked out to sustain a long running project/operation remains to be seen...but I think it is likely since it seems Rob has sunk his teeth into this one.

I think this project has multi faceted goals in mind, trying to kill 3 birds with 1 stone so to speak, one interesting point Rob made was a deductible for donated domains based on some kind of automated appraisal method. This is an interesting concept that goodwill.org does with their goods etc...

Nothing about this industry is easy, and I know many people on the outside spin it other ways, or sometimes you can think it especially these days seeing some of the offkey top sales, but people from emerging countries are usually ready to work 10 times as hard for a 1/10th of the pay. So most will fail, but there will be some who grasp it, and grow it. They may start in domaining, but they will probably end up somewhere else in the ecommerce cycle.

The thing is Rob has a good portion of tools in house at Epik to give his project a fighting chance, and the connections on the outside to put the missing pieces in place. It is no small feat for sure, but he is not really harming anyone except his own resources, so let's see what he can do.

I wake up everyday to an inbox of inquiries from Venezuela, Nigeria, Indonesia, India, Colombia, Mexico... right after seeing the IP locations to be honest I already know it is a dead sale, but I can see their comments, $10,$20 budgets.... I need this domain, you are not using it can you give it to me etc...these are non English first language countries, but these people are filling out the forms and making the submissions. Of course it has become an impossible task to respond, so inquiries just get junked because I don’t have the time to deal with what I perceive as a dead sale, but hopefully ICANN will use some of those millions to help grow the internet into these emerging economies and as the internet grows, so will the value of everyone’s domain portfolio.

 

[satsdifference.com]

IMO this is a brilliant vision for the world masses and the corporate side. Nothing better than a domain name to empower countless hopes worldwide expansion. In 1998 I studied grad school #NGO like Muhammad Yunus Grameen bank. Highly successful with women in particular for these small loans. It was known as "microenterprise" (microcredit).

This is inspiring thought for me as I have been collecting domain names since January 1999. Domaining aside, if even a name like GodAddy can make it, just having one can make all the difference mainstreaming. This shines as Epik is stand-out approach!


- have a special day

As some folks here know, I am a big fan of Digital Empowerment projects that scale.

Over the last year, I have seen lives transformed by people becoming successful domain investors on a bootstrap.

I have been discussing with a few folks at Epik about introducing a Domain Microfinance program for emerging economies and for young entrepreneurs.

This could be a Digital Empowerment strategy for helping people to bootstrap domain portfolios. The idea was inspired by a discussion with a young Angolan.

The idea is this:

- People apply to get a microfinance grant. To get the grant, they have to verify their identity. This is done in order to prevent repeat applicants.

- Domains registered are limited to .com. With a budget of as little as $30, right now that is about 5 .com domains at Epik's rate of just $5.49.

- The domains are powered by Epik's SSL powered landing pages which domain owners can optimize and then use to sell or lease.

- Once the grant participants generate a certain level of sales or leases, e.g. $100, they can request an interest-free domain loan based on their portfolio.

 

[Rob Monster]

One concern, domainflippa, too close to “flippa”?
I havent been too pleased with Flippa lately... what if they any use your prospective rise, against you, by suing you for UDRP! To make up,for their downfall? (My feeling, flippa’s been declining quality...)

The content will likely move to an Epik-branded host. The navigation is really elegant and the production quality of the videos is A+.

 

[oldtimer]

I wish I was wrong .. or that it was more opinion than legal fact, but if you're targeting domains of people's name plus their business class, and then you turn around and outbound to them .. then almost without exception all 3 requirements of a UDRP are fairly clear:

1- They have rights to that mark
2- You do not have rights to that mark
3- The domain was registered in bad faith

There *might* be a rare exception like if the name was also a generic word and the business was very popular, like maybe "Green Cleaning" for example, but even then .. if you are outbounding the domain to them, and they are using their name to represent themselves in that business in any way, then I don't see how a UDRP panellist doesn't check all three checkmarks in bold?

@jberryhill seems to be following this thread, so maybe you'll trust his interpretation a bit more, but to me it's a pretty easy UDRP decision at least 99% of the time, and most certainly in the case of something so specific like "DlaminiUsedTires.com".

I won't go so far as to say it's fact that such a domain could still be considered to have been registered in bad faith if it wasn't marketed via outbound .. in that case it's more my strong opinion that it would be ... but if you're outbounding that domain, then it's crossed over into fact.




Everything you've said is true except that the number of people who have tried and failed to achieve profitability number in the hundreds of thousands .. and quite possibly low 7 figures if you go by NamePros membership count alone (while there most definitely are fake and duplicate accounts, there are also probably countless people who tried domaining who never registered at NamePros .. as tragic as that sounds .. lol).

Or if you prefer .. look at the NamePros meet and greet section ... of the ~1200 who have posted there, how many do you honestly think are successful and making a profit in less than a year? I think it would be extremely generous to say 2 per page .. which would equate to an extremely generous 8% (even if it's realistically far less than that) .. then take a step back and realise that those are the most confident 0.1% of registered members who put themselves out there and said hello to strangers (an important part of sale). Most definitely there are those who are very confident who just couldn't be bothered to introduce themselves .. but let's assume that for every one person who introduced themselves there are actually 10 others who are also confident to do some outbound outreach but simply didn't bother say hello ... then we're still talking about 1% of 8% = 0.08%!

These are numbers based on observable metrics ... aka facts. I wish I was wrong .. or that it was more my opinion than fact .. but you simply cannot deny the numbers .. saying there are fewer than 6 figures worth of people who have tried domaining and did not succeed is just not being honest with reality.

Then you also need to ask yourself .. even if you do choose to completely ignore reality and think I'm off by a factor .. of those 1500 how many were actually profitable in their first year? Before their first wave of renewals hit? It's at this point where you likely lose yet another factor of 10 in the other direction!

If the natural failure rate of something is 99% (and likely far more), AND you are introducing elements into the equation to make success even more challenging, then I just don't see how you can't see this as giving false hopes?

YES .. most definitely there are things that can be done to put a dent in the odds .. such as a good course.

But again what you're conveniently forgetting is that there are so many more aspects needed to succeed in domaining that are beyond the scope of a technical domain course .. marketing .. linguistics .. phonetics .. and a strong gut feeling for business ideas and concepts .. it's not a short list .. and overlooking any such element is inviting failure .. and just giving someone a crash course in the basic technical elements of domaining is not going to make a strong enough dent in the math and numbers to turn this into so sort of miracle.

Then on top of all of that you putting them in markets where the profit margins and actual demand are significantly smaller than average ... again .. putting another factor of 10 in the opposite direction.

It's all facts and math .. everything I've said are unfortunately not my opinions .. they are observable and measurable realities of the real world.


Again ... there most definitely could be people who succeed .. and the rate could go up significantly if there is an excessively heavy filtration process that weeds out 99+% of the candidates to focus on those who score extremely high in all the other non-technical domainer qualities needed to be good at domaining .. but that has not been mentioned in any way so far .. and if anything would go against the spirit of what's being tried to be done here.


Anyhow .. I hope I'm proven wrong ... or that the program ends up being significantly different than the way I understand it to be right now. Again .. I'm not saying it's not a good thing to want to help others in need .. I'm just saying that there are significantly better ways to do so (specifically direct funding to third-world education)

As I have repeatedly said you (and many other people here) are making some very good points to watch for that will surely help @Rob Monster adjust and refine this program as it evolves and is developed further (hence the fact that Rob created this thread to hear all opinions) so there is no problem with you giving your opinion about this project as long as you don't go out of your way to try to convince everyone to do as you want based on what is in effect only your personal view of this program and the domain Industry at large.

For a minute forget about all the numbers and all the facts and try to think of domains and domaining as an EXCUSE to try to engage this people and to try to create some interactions and friendships with them to give them hope that at least a few people on the other side of the World are thinking about them and who care about their constant struggles in life just to survive. Rob is in the domain Industry and as such domain related projects are perhaps the only way that he has available to him to try to help, if he was a famous painter and owned an art gallery he might have then tried to teach people how to paint and sell theirs (or other people's) paintings or to market painting supply packages.

Considering all the factors since this is the only way that Rob and the other domainers have available to them to try to give a helping hand to the disadvantaged (other than just handing out cash) then perhaps we should not focus so much on chances of failure (as we all know it's great) and focus on helping Rob by engaging the participants when they come to the forum and try to give them some additional help and guidance. The friendships that are established and the communication and sales skills that the participants can gain through this program makes this a worthwhile project even if they fail at selling even one domain. IMO