Domain Legal Support on Subscription Model

[Ted.T]

Hello, my friends!

Since some time ago I'm thinking about combining my main profession, as a lawyer, and my hobby, as a domainer. I have a Master's Degree in International Law, that helps me understand the rules around international business and infrastructure, however I'm thinking about getting a new Master's Degree in Intellectual Property Law, that's closer to domains.

I know that lawyers charge per hour, but what about a new concept, legal support on a subscription model. Let's say you pay monthly a small amount and receive anytime support and advises in everything related to domains, for example contract drafting, UDRPs, Trademarks, etc.

It's a really interesting field for me, and I would be glad to hear your opinions.

What do you think, would you agree to pay a small fee pro month to get anytime legal support in your domaining activity?

Ted

 

[Ted.T]

Well, my friends? Still no opinions?

 

[todaygold]

Well since no one else chimed in, I'll give you my opinion. Personally, I don't think a lot of domainers are going to want to pay a monthly fee for something like this. In the domain industry, a standard sales contract that can be used over and over (just changing the name, dates, price, etc.) is generally just fine for 99% of domains...no need to hire a lawyer to draft up a new one for each transaction. Similarly, most domainers know not to register trademarks, so that's kind of moot. And in the rare case of a UDRP, most domainers are capable of submitting a written response without a professionals help. So personally, I don't see it being all that useful. Plus, how would it work? They pay $X per month and in-turn are eligible for X number of hours of support per month? Does it roll-over or accumulate from month-to-month? What is the charge per hour after X number of hours? Or is it unlimited number of hours as long as they paid the fee? It seems like there would be too many details to make it really worth it.

 

[Ted.T]

Well since no one else chimed in, I'll give you my opinion. Personally, I don't think a lot of domainers are going to want to pay a monthly fee for something like this. In the domain industry, a standard sales contract that can be used over and over (just changing the name, dates, price, etc.) is generally just fine for 99% of domains...no need to hire a lawyer to draft up a new one for each transaction. Similarly, most domainers know not to register trademarks, so that's kind of moot. And in the rare case of a UDRP, most domainers are capable of submitting a written response without a professionals help. So personally, I don't see it being all that useful. Plus, how would it work? They pay $X per month and in-turn are eligible for X number of hours of support per month? Does it roll-over or accumulate from month-to-month? What is the charge per hour after X number of hours? Or is it unlimited number of hours as long as they paid the fee? It seems like there would be too many details to make it really worth it.

Well, any of us is good in smth, but there are a lot of situations when your own knowledge is not enough. We have seen a lot cases when domainers post here their problems with legal aspects. This is where I'm able to help.

Drafting a contract can be tricky also, as the situation described by Cyberian regarding the disclaimer. A standard model contract that can be found online is not always the best choice, and a clever lawyer can interpret it in the way he needs (sometimes one sentence or even a word can have multiple meanings, and this is a lawyer's job to find the suitable meaning).

Even if the working week is officially 40h, I'm not intending to divide it and offer only X hours to a subscriber. So, paying the fee a subscriber receives unlimited number of hours.

 

[todaygold]

Well, any of us is good in smth, but there are a lot of situations when your own knowledge is not enough. We have seen a lot cases when domainers post here their problems with legal aspects. This is where I'm able to help.

Drafting a contract can be tricky also, as the situation described by Cyberian regarding the disclaimer. A standard model contract that can be found online is not always the best choice, and a clever lawyer can interpret it in the way he needs (sometimes one sentence or even a word can have multiple meanings, and this is a lawyer's job to find the suitable meaning).

Even if the working week is officially 40h, I'm not intending to divide it and offer only X hours to a subscriber. So, paying the fee a subscriber receives unlimited number of hours.

But again, once you have a base contract, you don't need a lawyer to draft a new one each time. This is similar to someone renting an apartment, you have a base lease drawn up and use that each time. The landlord doesn't get a lawyer to draft up a new contract every time he wants to rent an apartment out.
And as far as the post regarding the disclaimer, from my understanding, simply adding a signature at the end of your email asking people not to use it against you doesn't really have a legal backing, so that seems kind of moot.
Finally, do you have a price point you are thinking about? I would be interested in having an idea of how much you planned to charge for something like this?

 

[Ted.T]

simply adding a signature at the end of your email asking people not to use it against you doesn't really have a legal backing,

simply adding not, but writing a little more about the email's scope, explaining that email conversation cannot be considered a contract, etc. can help.

Finally, do you have a price point you are thinking about? I would be interested in having an idea of how much you planned to charge for something like this?

I'm still not sure atm, as there is only your feedback. I was thinking about low-mid XX pro month. I think it's a fair fee.

 

[todaygold]

simply adding not, but writing a little more about the email's scope, explaining that email conversation cannot be considered a contract, etc. can help.

I'm still not sure atm, as there is only your feedback. I was thinking about low-mid XX pro month. I think it's a fair fee.

Maybe I misunderstood the thread about the email disclaimer, but from my understanding it was about negotiating a deal, then they turnaround and file a UDRP against you claiming bad faith because you were trying to sell it to them...not about the email being considered a contract. In which case, adding the disclaimer wouldn't help stop them from using it against you if they file a UDRP.
I suppose for a pro domainer that would be okay, although if you get close to $50 a month, $600 a year might be a tough sell, especially if they rarely use it. And it might be problematic if only a few take you up on your offer, especially if you charge low $xx/month, because you may end up doing a lot of work by years end with little to show for it. You would definitely need to make sure you had enough interest, which so far, it doesn't seem there is that much.

 

[Ted.T]

So, only 3 votes. Don't hesitate to vote, even if you don't agree with such a service.

 

[SpareDomains]

I actually thought about a prepaid deal many years ago. My thoughts at the time were you'd need to formulate a risk factor into the monthly pricing model based on the domains. So you'd need to database all of the customers domains protected by the plan. So domainer with 100 clean domains pays one price. Domainer with 500 clean domains pays another price. Domainer with risky domains either pays a higher price or you strike those from your database as not protected due to obvious trademark issues etc... Basically you wouldn't want to protect a domainer based on simply they bought the 500 domain plan as then you could find out that 400 of them contain trademarks in them. So you'd have to analyze each portfolio and exclude issues or charge a higher premium for the issues. I'd probably go with exclude issues as no sense continually losing over obvious trademarks.

So I've thought of it in the past and like the idea but think it's more than creating plans based on how many domains a domainer owns and more every domain would need to be analyzed and databased as protected/not protected under the plan so a little labor intensive.

 

[Kate]

Domainers will probably need legal counsel on just a few things:

• drafting contracts
• respond to C&Ds, UDRPs, or worse but infrequent: lawsuits
• advice on borderline domains, or domains that can pose TM issues

I could be wrong, but I think you will end up spending the most time and energy on rotten cases of people who think they can do stupid things because they have 'insurance'.
I am not sure there is enough demand for such a service. Maybe that will surprise you, but the majority of domainers are hobbyists and are not making enough money on domain names to justify the service.

Few transactions require involvement of a lawyer.
I have sold (and bought) hundreds of domains and almost never had to deal with a lawyer.

 

[Name Trader]

I voted Probably, but I meant it as Possibly

 

[RJ]

I voted yes. When I operated a business in California I used a service called Pre-Paid Legal that was similar in concept. It was helpful to have lawyers on standby that could review contracts as needed. The only downside was they typically were not that familiar with domain names in general.

I think your idea sounds awesome, especially if it included C&D + UDRP protection where you would write a response in the event of a dispute.

RJ

 

[Ted.T]

So I've thought of it in the past and like the idea but think it's more than creating plans based on how many domains a domainer owns and more every domain would need to be analyzed and databased as protected/not protected under the plan so a little labor intensive.

In fact, it'a a good idea, but the amount of time needed to analyze the data makes it not reasonable and can't justify a low price. Plus to this, a lawyer should do his work indifferent of the case.

I could be wrong, but I think you will end up spending the most time and energy on rotten cases of people who think they can do stupid things because they have 'insurance'.

That's a great possibility for experience gain and teaching the domainers the rules of the industry. I realize there will be strange cases, but this is the cherry on the pie, and I like it

Few transactions require involvement of a lawyer.

Sometimes one transaction/decision can ruin a life, get the person bankrupt or even jailed. We all have health insurance that is used maybe a few times a year, even if we pay every month for it, and those few times worth more than all the money paid monthly. Legal support is the same, you never know when you would need it, but regret if you don't have it in the right moment.

I voted Probably, but I meant it as Possibly

Thanks, Stub, it's important to understand if there is demand for such services.

I voted yes. When I operated a business in California I used a service called Pre-Paid Legal that was similar in concept. It was helpful to have lawyers on standby that could review contracts as needed. The only downside was they typically were not that familiar with domain names in general.

I think your idea sounds awesome, especially if it included C&D + UDRP protection where you would write a response in the event of a dispute.

RJ

Thank you, RJ. That's the field where I want to dominate, a Domainer Lawyer, familiar with domain names, TM issues, UDRPs and C&D letters

 

[Name Trader]

IThank you, RJ. That's the field where I want to dominate, a Domainer Lawyer, familiar with domain names, TM issues, UDRPs and C&D letters

You'll have plenty of stiff competition. Berryhill, et al.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

...Thank you, RJ. That's the field where I want to dominate, a Domainer Lawyer, familiar with domain names, TM issues, UDRPs and C&D letters

OK, so how many UDRP cases do you have under your belt? Won/lost?

 

[Ted.T]

OK, so how many UDRP cases do you have under your belt? Won/lost?

None, atm, because I've not been involved in this field until now.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

None, atm, because I've not been involved in this field until now.

Fair enough. I asked, because it seems to me that you are underestimating the workload involved in responding to an UDRP claim.

 

[Ted.T]

Fair enough. I asked, because it seems to me that you are underestimating the workload involved in responding to an UDRP claim.

I've worked on Civil and Criminal cases, that included a lot of preparatory work, investigations and researches. There is no easy work, but it's interesting enough if you enjoy what you do.

 

[usernamex]

Ditto to this for me

I voted Probably, but I meant it as Possibly

No matter what, I am happy you started this thread and commented in the Disclosure email thread so irrespective of you setting up this service, you would likely be the first person I would reach out to if I ever encountered a domaining legal issue that superseded the collective wisdom of an NP thread. : smile :

 

[Ted.T]

Ditto to this for me


No matter what, I am happy you started this thread and commented in the Disclosure email thread so irrespective of you setting up this service, you would likely be the first person I would reach out to if I ever encountered a domaining legal issue that superseded the collective wisdom of an NP thread. : smile :

Thank you! I try to use my knowledge to educate the newcomers and help every domainer who need help

 

[todaygold]

In fact, it'a a good idea, but the amount of time needed to analyze the data makes it not reasonable and can't justify a low price. Plus to this, a lawyer should do his work indifferent of the case.



That's a great possibility for experience gain and teaching the domainers the rules of the industry. I realize there will be strange cases, but this is the cherry on the pie, and I like it


Sometimes one transaction/decision can ruin a life, get the person bankrupt or even jailed. We all have health insurance that is used maybe a few times a year, even if we pay every month for it, and those few times worth more than all the money paid monthly. Legal support is the same, you never know when you would need it, but regret if you don't have it in the right moment.


Thanks, Stub, it's important to understand if there is demand for such services.



Thank you, RJ. That's the field where I want to dominate, a Domainer Lawyer, familiar with domain names, TM issues, UDRPs and C&D letters

Well I will say this thread has brought up quite a few interesting points. I will say that what Kate mentions, that domainers will be more reckless because they feel they have 'insurance' is a very good point. You need to be very careful with that...what if a domainer registered 500 trademark-infringing domains and gets cease and desist letters...you tell them to drop the domains...but what if the domainer turns around and says 'no, I paid you my subscription, you're my lawyer, I expect you to fight these'...even though they are clearly in the wrong. Then what?

And as I read more and more of what you write, I wonder what type of legal system you deal with. You say how one bad transaction can send you to jail...I don't know where exactly you live, but here in the states, we don't have 'debtors prisons'...you can't be sent to jail just because you registered a domain...you would have to commit an actual criminal act in order to face jail in criminal court.

Also, your comparing it to health insurance is a little much. Here in the states, most people have health insurance either because their employer provides it or because they were required to buy a cheap policy through the marketplace. In either case, a normal healthy individual will have higher premiums over the course of the year then what they will actually spend on healthcare...if that weren't the case, then the insurance companies would go out of business. Regardless, health insurance is only really important if you have a surgery or other major health issues...similarly, domain lawyer insurance would only be helpful if you get sued by a major company who refuses to settle...and that is incredibly rare and almost a non-existent to a professional domainer who doesn't register trademarks. So comparing health insurance (where you can't predict if you will have an unforseen medical crisis) to domain insurance (where you can pretty well predict your risk of being sued) is ridiculous.

Finally, going back to my not understanding what legal structure you live in. How well versed are you in dealing with other countries laws? What if you live in and understand the laws for country A, but your client lives in and is being sued in court by a company from country B. Are you going to be able to help this client, who lives in another country with a different type of court system?

 

[SpareDomains]

In fact, it'a a good idea, but the amount of time needed to analyze the data makes it not reasonable and can't justify a low price. Plus to this, a lawyer should do his work indifferent of the case.

Just warning ya that a low monthly fee plan utilized by me would be 500+ .com domains that would have a slim chance of you having to defend so more of cheap insurance in my case.

Domainer B might have 50 obvious trademarks in their portfolio which you will continually defend and lose.

So when I thought of this concept many years ago it's the reason I said you'd have to analyze and database each domainer's domains protected by the plan or else your UDRP record will be 0-500 not giving any credibility to buying the plan because you will lose them all. Reason you would lose them all is because you didn't prescreen what you're taking on/possibly defending. So don't think this works as buy the plan and everything you own is protected as not every domainer's portfolios are clean and without pre-screening you'll work more in defense on all the dirty domains than the membership fees will produce. Plus clean domainers will need to foot the bill for all the dirty domainer's domains you accept.

Reason I abandoned the idea was labor intensive as a low fee monthly model only works if you're just protecting clean low risk domainers. Same reason car insurance, home insurance etc... analyzes risk factors and adjusts pricing or drops things from protection. If your not pre-screening than basically a green light for the garbage to flow in and cause more headaches than it's worth and leave ya with a horrific UDRP record that won't instill confidence in anyone new buying into the plan.

Still like the concept but not a 1 man show. Needs a team effort possibly with a few site admins and a few lawyers in the pool with all portfolios databased as protected/not protected based on risk analysis. Is there enough demand for all that, not sure.

 

[Ted.T]

Well I will say this thread has brought up quite a few interesting points. I will say that what Kate mentions, that domainers will be more reckless because they feel they have 'insurance' is a very good point. You need to be very careful with that...what if a domainer registered 500 trademark-infringing domains and gets cease and desist letters...you tell them to drop the domains...but what if the domainer turns around and says 'no, I paid you my subscription, you're my lawyer, I expect you to fight these'...even though they are clearly in the wrong. Then what?

That's indeed a problem, and to avoid such situations and naive customers, I'm working on comprehensive Terms of Service.

And as I read more and more of what you write, I wonder what type of legal system you deal with. You say how one bad transaction can send you to jail...I don't know where exactly you live, but here in the states, we don't have 'debtors prisons'...you can't be sent to jail just because you registered a domain...you would have to commit an actual criminal act in order to face jail in criminal court.

Also, your comparing it to health insurance is a little much. Here in the states, most people have health insurance either because their employer provides it or because they were required to buy a cheap policy through the marketplace. In either case, a normal healthy individual will have higher premiums over the course of the year then what they will actually spend on healthcare...if that weren't the case, then the insurance companies would go out of business. Regardless, health insurance is only really important if you have a surgery or other major health issues...similarly, domain lawyer insurance would only be helpful if you get sued by a major company who refuses to settle...and that is incredibly rare and almost a non-existent to a professional domainer who doesn't register trademarks. So comparing health insurance (where you can't predict if you will have an unforseen medical crisis) to domain insurance (where you can pretty well predict your risk of being sued) is ridiculous.

Well, I gave those examples to show that unpredictable things happen. And if you read my statement, it says transaction, meaning any possible transaction. I think all of those who read this thread know about the situation with those 845 .in CVCV domains, and the reversed payment after selling 42 domains. Was it a transaction? Yes. Can that situation be considered Fraud? Yes.

Regarding the health insurance example, and because you say a domain problem can't be unforeseen, I will tell you a short story, a real UDRP case, won by a domainer with a lawyer on his side.

There was a guy, who got in the internet business around 15 years ago. He wanted to open an email service and offer custom email address on custom domains to his customers, so he registered around 3000 domains. Unfortunately, his email service hadn't enough demand, so he chose to list those domains at Sedo.

The second part, there is company on another continent, that got incorporated around 10 years ago and is using as it's name one of our guy's domain. Recently, this company approached this guy and made an offer, a low one... As our guy is in the domain business for long enough to understand the value of a domain when there is demand, he asked a higher price, that he considered is fair for his domain.

Company got crazy and filled a UDRP wanting to get the domain for free and screaming that our guy is a cybersquatter.

The panel was clever enough to check the backgrounds of the domain, WHOIS and history and find out that domain has been registered 5 years before the company's incorporation, and the higher price asked by owner can't be considered as bad faith.
So in the end, company lost the case, was found guilty of Reverse Domain Name Hijacking and I think lost any possibility to acquire that domain.

The moral of story? Domain industry can be unforeseen and naive people can cause a lot of problems. Never underestimate the greed and stupidity.

Reason I abandoned the idea was labor intensive as a low fee monthly model only works if you're just protecting clean low risk domainers. Same reason car insurance, home insurance etc... analyzes risk factors and adjusts pricing or drops things from protection. If your not pre-screening than basically a green light for the garbage to flow in and cause more headaches than it's worth and leave ya with a horrific UDRP record that won't instill confidence in anyone new buying into the plan.

I got some time to think about this issue, and decided to add a pair of additional services, prior to subscription, like portfolio screening and TM reviews.

 

[D Haynes]

I dont know if it ls already been sugested but what if rather than a monthly fee or hourly rate you have a set price list for different types of case? So a price for UDRP per name. I understand this may not be as sustainable because there is no monthly garaunteed income but people would be more willing to pay a one time fee per case when its clear what they get for a one off fee. Maybe lol just throwing it out there

 

[todaygold]

I will tell you a short story, a real UDRP case, won by a domainer with a lawyer on his side.

There was a guy, who got in the internet business around 15 years ago. He wanted to open an email service and offer custom email address on custom domains to his customers, so he registered around 3000 domains. Unfortunately, his email service hadn't enough demand, so he chose to list those domains at Sedo.

The second part, there is company on another continent, that got incorporated around 10 years ago and is using as it's name one of our guy's domain. Recently, this company approached this guy and made an offer, a low one... As our guy is in the domain business for long enough to understand the value of a domain when there is demand, he asked a higher price, that he considered is fair for his domain.

Company got crazy and filled a UDRP wanting to get the domain for free and screaming that our guy is a cybersquatter.

The panel was clever enough to check the backgrounds of the domain, WHOIS and history and find out that domain has been registered 5 years before the company's incorporation, and the higher price asked by owner can't be considered as bad faith.
So in the end, company lost the case, was found guilty of Reverse Domain Name Hijacking and I think lost any possibility to acquire that domain.

I fail to see your point of this story, and I fail to see any problem. Any domainer...or at least any domainer with half a brain...that gets a UDRP claiming a trademark, the first thing they will do is lookup the trademark in question. With all of the resources online to find trademark registrations, this should take all of 5 minutes. Then you write in your response that you owned the domain before the trademark...bam. Done. It doesn't take a lawyer to do that. In fact, the only thing I learned from this story is that this guy wasted a lot of money on a lawyer, when he could have done the same thing in a few minutes himself...and he still would have won.

I still stick to my original point that most domainers will not need a lawyer.