discuss Backorder companies are catching everything

[Isac]

Initially i thought Drop catching companies only try to catch domain which are popular and ordered by customers.But now i see they are catching everything Excellent, good and average and then these domains are bought by a company Huge domains. from drop catch discount auction.

What's your opinion about it. How to tackle this ?

 

[anantj]

Not necessarily. A $59 BO will routinely lead to an auction, if the domain is any good.
They'd rather have a near end-user price from the ensuing auction than the domain.

How many end users are you aware of that frequent these auction platforms? If domains are being sold at end-user prices, then are all the resellers/domain investors who buy on DC the end user for the domains? Obviously not. Ergo, the domains are not necessarily being sold at end-user prices. Which means there might still be profits to be extracted out of the domains at prices that HD can or might sell them for

 

[Asfas1000]

I don't deny that DC + HD is potentially unethical. But the keyword is potentially. I'm not a pessimist by nature and don't consider everyone (or most people) as unethical and/or cheaters by default. As I mentioned previously, I do not know if DC is sharing information with HD (or they aren't). But either way, I'm pretty sure nor does anyone else on this thread either. Casting wild speculation and conspiracy theories are fun to read (I love good crispy popcorn) but unless backed by solid evidence, is pure speculation and have no factual basis. It's pretty much like saying that the reptilians exist and they are conspiring against humans

In this case, the burden is on them to make everything transparent and clear out any suspicions.

I invited them more than once in this forum to prove that they are not cherrypicking on users' backorders. They said they would, but in several months never did.

So, since I am parting with my money if I want to use their service, I choose to not believe them, although I have no crisp proof against them.

Again, the burden is on them to prove they are honest.

 

[anantj]

Again, the burden is on them to prove they are honest.

Sure. It is your prerogative to believe what you wish for. But almost all legal systems believe innocent until proven guilty and unless you have proof of wrongdoing, it's consider libel!

 

[Kate]

Casting wild speculation and conspiracy theories are fun to read (I love good crispy popcorn) but unless backed by solid evidence, is pure speculation and have no factual basis.

I agree with you're saying. I don't want to be the one who shall cast that stone.
But again, we can see how the domain name industry is so much different (and immature). In the real world, auctioneers (at least those who operate in stable jurisdictions) must abide by a code of conduct and are subject to supervision and there are trade bodies that uphold professional standards of conduct and even sanction the rotten apples.
Again, nothing of the sort in our industry.
When you run online auctions you should strive to avoid appearance of impropriety. Customers shouldn't be raising possible ethical issues in the first place.

And it's not just the auctioneer that is a possible wrongdoer. Customers also need to be protected against other users who could be trying to rig the system, for instance through shill bidding. Now maybe this is more an issue for NJ or GD than DC. I am not a lawyer, but I would think they could be held liable if they failed to implement reasonable measures to keep their marketplace fair and sound, or if they chose to cover up wrongdoings that could undermine customer faith.

Fighting fraud must not be a reactive but a proactive process. Corporations must also conduct internal audits (*) to protect the integrity of their own system, if they won't do it for their customers they at least need to cover themselves. When you look at the NJ thread it seems that management was learning things in the thread, as if we had more information than they have. Either they have a really poor backend, or they lack the competence, or they have other priorities.

(*) To get back to the Snapnames fiasco, this is a case of lack of internal audits. There was one person in full control of the IT systems, who was able to game the system, and who acted against the interests of its own employer for a long time. The company may be honest. But it could still be abused, along with its customers. Again, quis custodiet ipsos custodes (who will guard the guardians) ?

 

[Name Trader]

I don't deny that DC + HD is potentially unethical. But the keyword is potentially. I'm not a pessimist by nature and don't consider everyone (or most people) as unethical and/or cheaters by default. As I mentioned previously, I do not know if DC is sharing information with HD (or they aren't). But either way, I'm pretty sure nor does anyone else on this thread either. Casting wild speculation and conspiracy theories are fun to read (I love good crispy popcorn) but unless backed by solid evidence, is pure speculation and have no factual basis. It's pretty much like saying that the reptilians exist and they are conspiring against humans

I've basically answered this above. Discount Club Backorders are a newer product than Regular Backorders. You would have expected they would have kept the same terms and conditions as Regular Backorders. But no. They changed the terms and conditions for Corporate Partners from them not being allowed to compete for Regular Backorders, to being allowed to compete for Discount Club Backorders. If this is a conflict of interest for Regular Backorders. It's also a conflict of interest for Discount Club Backorders.

Also as I've said before. There can be only 1 reason for this change. It's to have the ability to compete with Discount Club Backorders. Which is a conflict of interest. I'm absolutely convinced they are using their ToS to trample over Discount Club Backorders which they specifically cannot do with Regular Backorders. There is absolutely no reason why Discount Club Backorders should be treated differently to Regular Backorders, when they both involve conflicts of interest. Where 1 it's allowed and 1 it's not allowed.

Also. It's a simple change to resolve. Ban Corporate Partners from bidding against Discount Club Backorders. I challenge DC to do the right thing and fix this. And this discussion would not be necessary. They are just being greedy, for what is probably a very small part of their total business.

 

[Name Trader]

OK. If this competing with their own customers is so great, Why don't DC change their ToS for Regular Backorders so the rules are the same for both. Let them compete for Regular Backorders just like they can for Discount Club Backorders. And lets see if Regular Backorder customers start to complain.

 

[Name Trader]

Sure. It is your prerogative to believe what you wish for. But almost all legal systems believe innocent until proven guilty and unless you have proof of wrongdoing, it's consider libel!

They are guilty if they don't allow conflicts of interest for Regular Backorders but allow them for Discount Club Backorders. Full Stop. You don't need any examples to prove their guilt. It's allowed in their ToS. That makes them guilty until they rectify the anomaly in their ToS.

 

[offthehandle]

@stub really its all economics, their rules. Pay $59., And You get the name or it goes to auction. The system is fair as far as I have experienced. Lately, I have been losing more and more auctions and discount orders, the error states “lost partner”, huge domains or the price someone else bid more than My $8 back order.

The front end is becoming bogged down as they are growing in customer base. I have been this past 2 weeks unable to change privacy ir nsmeservers like 6 months ago. I have complained too.

I have lost numerous names I should never have put on the discount club. My fault. I have kicked myself for being cheap and not paying $59.

I have over 500 transactions with Turn Commerce of regular and discount, and I repeatedly checked, double checked lost names and verified they follow their rules. I get no preferential treatment nor expect it. I have no axe to grind, just explaining my own experience is good. In fact, I have had some slow or non responses sometimes, but overall its good and I even had a huge delay in support response last week from them. Between Namesilo and Namebright, they have the best domainer friendly systems.

 

[Name Trader]

@stub really its all economics, their rules. Pay $59., And You get the name or it goes to auction. The system is fair as far as I have experienced. Lately, I have been losing more and more auctions and discount orders, the error states “lost partner”, huge domains or the price someone else bid more than My $8 back order.

The front end is becoming bogged down as they are growing in customer base. I have been this past 2 weeks unable to change privacy ir nsmeservers like 6 months ago. I have complained too.

I have lost numerous names I should never have put on the discount club. My fault. I have kicked myself for being cheap and not paying $59.

I have over 500 transactions with Turn Commerce of regular and discount, and I repeatedly checked, double checked lost names and verified they follow their rules. I get no preferential treatment nor expect it. I have no axe to grind, just explaining my own experience is good. In fact, I have had some slow or non responses sometimes, but overall its good and I even had a huge delay in support response last week from them. Between Namesilo and Namebright, they have the best domainer friendly systems.

My whole tenant in this thread is that if it's a conflict of interest for Corporate Partners to bid on Regular Backorders, it should also be a conflict of interest for them to bid on Discount Club Backorders. How many of those lost Discount Club Backorders have been lost to a Corporate Partner (HD)? HD are looking at those Discount Club Backorders and placing their own bids on those domains you've lost to them.

I don't have as many transactions as you. But I've had my fair share of both Discount Club and Regular Backorders. In the beginning I won a couple of Discount Club Backorders. But nothing recently. I put this down to DC/HD having become more sophisticated with competing for Discount Club Backorders. I think they have a conflict of interest with Discount Club Backorders. Which they are regularly invoking. Because of this I too only use their Regular Backorders. And I usually lose them in auction if I don't win it outright by being the only backorderer.

I think in general DC need to increase the capacity of their servers also. Often times I cannot do anything on their website. But that's another discussion. I would have no complaints about DC, if they treated Regular Backorders and Discount Club Backorders the same. That is they should be off limits to insider trading for both.

 

[offthehandle]

I think in general DC need to increase the capacity of their servers also. Often times I cannot do anything on their website. But that's another discussion. I would have no complaints about DC, if they treated Regular Backorders and Discount Club Backorders the same. That is they should be off limits to insider trading for both.

I just entered seeing it today, did not read entire thread, I might have posted before. One suggestion you probably have done or considered is like the GD auctions, if you truly believe they are front running, post your discount orders 5 minutes before closing. Sure if they wanted to grab after they caught them maybe, I just think that like any business they are trying to balance. Its a price floor thing they came up with $59 and most .com short and common will never be sold for $8. Thats my experience. I am a niche buyer, so I get smaller vertical markets sometimes, sometimes not. I had a city/country name really longtail too, I figured they would let go, but I have a customer for it and stupidity on my part, I bid low discount and lost it. I could call up and maybe see if I could broker it I imagine, but too busy lately developing various sites. They don’t need domainer business, imho. As Ive mentioned before, We as individuals ride their coat tails, and I feel thats that. Just like being a mutual fund versus individual buyer. I would not want their their risk and overhead, its amazing to me really. I dont know how they file taxes on a 1000+ LLC’s let alone all accounting! I have a lot of respect for their venture.

 

[anantj]

I've basically answered this above. Discount Club Backorders are a newer product than Regular Backorders. You would have expected they would have kept the same terms and conditions as Regular Backorders. But no. They changed the terms and conditions for Corporate Partners from them not being allowed to compete for Regular Backorders, to being allowed to compete for Discount Club Backorders. If this is a conflict of interest for Regular Backorders. It's also a conflict of interest for Discount Club Backorders.

Also as I've said before. There can be only 1 reason for this change. It's to have the ability to compete with Discount Club Backorders. Which is a conflict of interest. I'm absolutely convinced they are using their ToS to trample over Discount Club Backorders which they specifically cannot do with Regular Backorders. There is absolutely no reason why Discount Club Backorders should be treated differently to Regular Backorders, when they both involve conflicts of interest. Where 1 it's allowed and 1 it's not allowed.

Also. It's a simple change to resolve. Ban Corporate Partners from bidding against Discount Club Backorders. I challenge DC to do the right thing and fix this. And this discussion would not be necessary. They are just being greedy, for what is probably a very small part of their total business.

Why don't you simply avoid the discount club and use regular backorders then? This way, you completely avoid the perceived conflict of interest.
It is DC's prerogative to set the terms as it IS their service. They have basically setup 3 tiers of backorders. From my reading of the ToS as well as their own statement here on NP, discount club is the lowest tier. Occam's razor applies here. The simplext. This essentially means they will be picked up last. Which means HD does not actually have to either know or technically compete against discount backorders.

Ps. Discount club is at least a 2 year old publicly released product (no idea how long they tested/beta tested the product which would make it an older product)

 

[anantj]

OK. If this competing with their own customers is so great, Why don't DC change their ToS for Regular Backorders so the rules are the same for both. Let them compete for Regular Backorders just like they can for Discount Club Backorders. And lets see if Regular Backorder customers start to complain.

Huh? HD, afaik, does compete for regular backorders by participating in the auctions themselves

 

[anantj]

They are guilty if they don't allow conflicts of interest for Regular Backorders but allow them for Discount Club Backorders. Full Stop. You don't need any examples to prove their guilt. It's allowed in their ToS. That makes them guilty until they rectify the anomaly in their ToS.

How is it a conflict of interest in the case of discount club? They are placing a higher priority order for a domain. By your logic, pretty much anyone who's placing a higher backorder bid than the starting bid has a conflict of interest as it is also allowed by the ToS. Especially in Discount club, a higher backorder bid will automatically win that domain without an auction.

 

[anantj]

I have lost numerous names I should never have put on the discount club. My fault. I have kicked myself for being cheap and not paying $59.

This. This is the crux of the issue. Folks don't want to pay a good price for the domain and complaints that discount club is rigged if they don't win the domain at a price that is actually a loss making price for DC (total cost to a registrar is ~$8.19 I believe).

 

[Name Trader]

Huh? HD, afaik, does compete for regular backorders by participating in the auctions themselves

You are talking a bunch of rubbish again... If they are doing this.... They are doing it against DC's own ToS. Please give me some examples of HD bidding in these DC auctions.

3. Multiple Backorders on Same Domain and Auction Process. If multiple customers place a backorder on a specific domain, and DropCatch successfully acquires the backordered domain, the domain will be placed into a public auction. This auction will allow all DropCatch customers (excluding Corporate Partners) to bid on the domain even if a customer did not place an initial backorder on the domain. All public auctions will last for three (3) days. At the termination of the auction the domain will be awarded to the highest bidder after they have paid for the domain at the winning bid price.

 

[Name Trader]

Why don't you simply avoid the discount club and use regular backorders then? This way, you completely avoid the perceived conflict of interest.
It is DC's prerogative to set the terms as it IS their service. They have basically setup 3 tiers of backorders. From my reading of the ToS as well as their own statement here on NP, discount club is the lowest tier. Occam's razor applies here. The simplext. This essentially means they will be picked up last. Which means HD does not actually have to either know or technically compete against discount backorders.

Ps. Discount club is at least a 2 year old publicly released product (no idea how long they tested/beta tested the product which would make it an older product)

I've said this multiple times already. HD can backorder domains which they have seen have Discount Club backorders on them because there is nothing to prevent them according to their ToS. It's even encouraged. But that doesn't make it right or even fair. Insider trading with the knowledge that somebody has placed a Discount Club Backorder on a domain when their own customers don't have that knowledge, and then placing a backorder on the domain which automatically negates all Discount Club Backorders on that domain. Is at worst, may be illegal, at best, exceedingly unfair to those who have Discount Club Backorder on that domain. This logic is as clear as the sky is blue. And it is exactly the opposite to how they treat Regular Backorders. They changed their ToS deliberately and specifically to allow them to do this. It's a rigged game.

 

[ResoluteDomains]

Honestly they have become headache for me. Whatever i like weather average or domain with no other extensions taken. They caught everything

Wonder how long they keep stuff - provided they cant sell it.. Would be nice to watch the drops on them and see what happens to these names.

 

[Name Trader]

How is it a conflict of interest in the case of discount club? They are placing a higher priority order for a domain. By your logic, pretty much anyone who's placing a higher backorder bid than the starting bid has a conflict of interest as it is also allowed by the ToS. Especially in Discount club, a higher backorder bid will automatically win that domain without an auction.

Well I give up trying to explain this to you. This is the last time. HD have inside knowledge, which is not shared with all DC's customer's about which domains have backorders on them. That's a conflict of interest which escalates to insider trading as soon as they place a backorder for a Discount Club Backordered domain, simply because they know there is one or multiple Discount Club Backorders for that domain.

As I have said before. I am not a legal beaver and I maybe using the wrong terms. But the object is clear. Cheat the customer, who has place a Discount Club Backorder for a domain, out of that domain. Period.

I don't even understand whatever you are saying about more than 1 bidder on a Discount Club ordered domain. The best I can say is that it twisted, illogical, logic. Which has nothing at all to the proposition that DC/HD are robbing Discount Club Baclorders from people who have placed legitimate Discount Club Backorder on a domain, with the outside expectation they might actually fairly capture that domain. I think [B]@Kate[/B] said it best. Domaining isn't like Banking, it's the Wild West. Until the players clean up their act, it's going to stay the Wild West.

Which. BTW. Is exactly why I don't and nobody should use Discount Club Backorders to attempt to capture domains at DC.

 

[Name Trader]

duplicate post

 

[anantj]

Well I give up trying to explain this to you. This is the last time. HD have inside knowledge, which is not shared with all DC's customer's about which domains have backorders on them. That's a conflict of interest which escalates to insider trading as soon as they place a backorder for a Discount Club Backordered domain, simply because they know there is one or multiple Discount Club Backorders for that domain.

As I have said before. I am not a legal beaver and I maybe using the wrong terms. But the object is clear. Cheat the customer, who has place a Discount Club Backorder for a domain, out of that domain. Period.

I don't even understand whatever you are saying about more than 1 bidder on a Discount Club ordered domain. The best I can say is that it twisted, illogical, logic. Which has nothing at all to the proposition that DC/HD are robbing Discount Club Baclorders from people who have placed legitimate Discount Club Backorder on a domain, with the outside expectation they might actually fairly capture that domain. I think [B]@Kate[/B] said it best. Domaining isn't like Banking, it's the Wild West. Until the players clean up their act, it's going to stay the Wild West.

Which. BTW. Is exactly why I don't and nobody should use Discount Club Backorders to attempt to capture domains at DC.

Just because you can't understand does not make it illogical. I'm done trying to debate this. You are welcome to your conspiracy theories which have no basis of fact. Go ahead and believe whatever *rubbish* you want. I have no skin in the game trying to convince you. Go ahead and don't use the discount club. Good for the rest of us who will continue to use it.

 

[Name Trader]

they speak about priority in their tos but not that hd can see discount orders.

They are Corporate Partners. They don't define who or what is a Corporate Partner either in their ToS or in their Glossary. They keep this vague for what reason? It couldn't be because their share information about backorders? By any chance? Corporate Partners would typically share information between each other.

 

[NoBS]

DC and HD are the same people. Corporate partner is just fancy language.

 

[nomen]

I wonder how long they hold/renew the weakest names before dropping...

I've seen a lot of domains that they've dropped after 2 years (reg dates >2014). Not all of them were bad to my eye.

 

[Name Trader]

Just because you can't understand does not make it illogical. I'm done trying to debate this. You are welcome to your conspiracy theories which have no basis of fact. Go ahead and believe whatever *rubbish* you want. I have no skin in the game trying to convince you. Go ahead and don't use the discount club. Good for the rest of us who will continue to use it.

It completely illogical what you projected about other higher bidders on a Discount Club Backorder. It makes no sense to me at all. Whereas I have provided a completely lengthy and logical argument to the conclusion I have come to. It makes much more sense than higher bidders also being accused of conflicts of interest.
And what about the total falsehood you told about HD bidding on Regular Backorder Auctions. You just leave that be without correcting your statement?

Anyway. We and others will probably still go their own way when the dust settles. And keep doing whatever they think suits them the best. Order. Or Not To Order. Discount Club Backorders on DC. I thank you for your debate. It certainly helped to hone my arguments. Thank you.

 

[Kate]

DC and HD are the same people. Corporate partner is just fancy language.

Translated for dummies (and domainers): Trust me buddy, my right hand doesn't know what the left hand does. Cause I put a firewall between them