.al cctld Albania Domain Dispute Issues

[-AR-]

Hi,

I wonder if you can guys can help with some advice. I registered a number of .al domains over the years and one of them turned out to be popular because it is the same name as a newspaper in Albania. The domain is very generic in the albanian language. So I was contacted by the a representative of the newspaper (they own the .com) and asked for the price, they offered 15usd for the domain and I refused and gave them my expected price. This was on Tuesday this week. By Friday AKEP (Albanian's domain governing body) had prepared a case and decided against me making a number of mistakes and false statements on their decision making document. The newspaper that wants the domain is owned by an ex Albanian Member of Parliament with a lot of influence in the country.

The registrar simply sent me a message stating that AKEP have decided to take away the domain from your ownership. Their reason was that the newspaper was established as a Limited company since 1990s and had trademark since 2016. They have not contacted me nor asked for anything from me. My argument is the following:

1. How can a decision be made within 2-3 working days?
2. Why was I not even made aware and not asked for any input?
3. Why was the registrar not made aware?
4. I never contacted the newspaper about the domain, they contacted me and made an offer and I made a counter offer.
5. The domain is generic, two albanian words
6. The newspapers trademark is from 2016 yet the domain was registered in 2013
7. One of the statements on the decision was that the domain was offered at "auction" which is not true. The domain was parked at bodis.com with an inquiry sales form.

So my question is, how can this case be approached? Any advice at all as this is not a .com domain...?

 

[jberryhill]

but can anything be done at all?

I suppose that depends on how much you want to spend, and whether litigation in Albania is convenient for you. For example, do you live in Albania or speak Albanian? Personally, I'd have a better go at learning that dance than in trying to communicate productively with them.

Absent from the OP is any hint of what, if anything, the domain name was doing. You state that the domain name is "very generic" with no clue of for what it might be generic. The word "time", for example, is generic for time. As the title of a magazine, it's not generic at all. The gap here appears to be the gulf between the domain name being "very generic" for something, and whether the domain name was being used for any purpose for which the word would be considered "very generic". That's all more or less academic, since there doesn't seem to be any clear domain dispute policy in .al.

A good starting point would be to look at the terms of registration for .al domains and wherever the .al registry policies might be found. But, frankly, a lot of these dodgy ccTLDs do whatever hey want. I poked around the registry website using Google Translate, and have no clue where they've hidden it. But, at the end of the day, if the point here is that the Albanian registry operator breached some sort of agreement with you (and it is doubtful that their registry policies do anything other than to allow them to do whatever they want), then what you are looking at is filing a breach of contract suit in Albania.

7. One of the statements on the decision was that the domain was offered at "auction" which is not true. The domain was parked at bodis.com with an inquiry sales form.

....for which there is unlikely to be any significant distinction if, for example, whatever the .al registry policies might be on the subject of whether or not it is permitted to even sell .al domain names.

Maybe someone with more familiarity in Albanian can dig out whatever the actual .al registry policies might happen to be, as a reference point for figuring out what it was you agreed to when you registered the domain.

 

[Kate]

1. How can a decision be made within 2-3 working days?

Some registries can make a decision in just one minute. For example if you buy names for the sole purpose of resale and are warehousing them, they may put an end to your registrations.
Some registries will do nothing without a court order, a UDRP ruling or the local equivalent. Others are more interventionist and decide at their own discretion what is acceptable.

5. The domain is generic, two albanian words

The domain name is made up of two generic keywords, but the resulting string is most likely not generic. I mean, plain and dealer are both generic keywords. Plain Dealer isn't generic. There is a US newspaper that is just called that.

6. The newspapers trademark is from 2016 yet the domain was registered in 2013

The newspaper or the holding company apparently has a history that goes back to the 90s, based on information posted here. Accordingly I imagine Albanians were already familiar with the newspaper name before you registered the matching domain name ?

AKEP thinking must be something like this:

1. The registrant is somebody who is not Albanian and doesn't live in Albania (red flag)
   
2. He has put up the domain name for sale (= bad faith).
3. He doesn't know one word of Albanian but he somehow managed to register the name of a local newspaper in the correct spelling (squatter).
4. Unless the name is truly generic, there may be only one 'obvious' end user

I am actually not sure about #1 and #3.

 

[Recons.Com]

Ah, here it is....

Nëse marrim ankim, marrim emrin tënd. Për të marrë emrin përsëri, duhet të luftosh gomarin.

This seems to translate as: "If we get a complaint, we'll get your name. To get the name again, you have to fight the donkey."

"If donkey like you, you keep donkey too."

But, honestly, what do you really expect from the Albanian ccTLD?

Besides finding some awkward videos, why such a patronizing tone about Albania?

 

[jberryhill]

If you want your domain name back, you're going to have to go through these guys first:

 

[-AR-]

If you want your domain name back, you're going to have to go through these guys first:

Thank you for your response but can anything be done at all?

 

[xynames]

You’re evidently on the wrong side of a well oiled political machine on this one.

 

[-EM-]

What was the domain?
Have you contacted the Registrar?

Oh, and just to be clear, I was kidding about the .al dispute policy. They won’t really let you keep the donkey.

Stop posting your stupidity here

 

[dordomai]

why did you register this (two word!).al domain in the first place?

There are a lot of things that I would do but I would never think about registering .al domains

 

[1Darko]

Hi,

I wonder if you can guys can help with some advice. I registered a number of .al domains over the years and one of them turned out to be popular because it is the same name as a newspaper in Albania. The domain is very generic in the albanian language. So I was contacted by the a representative of the newspaper (they own the .com) and asked for the price, they offered 15usd for the domain and I refused and gave them my expected price. This was on Tuesday this week. By Friday AKEP (Albanian's domain governing body) had prepared a case and decided against me making a number of mistakes and false statements on their decision making document. The newspaper that wants the domain is owned by an ex Albanian Member of Parliament with a lot of influence in the country.

The registrar simply sent me a message stating that AKEP have decided to take away the domain from your ownership. Their reason was that the newspaper was established as a Limited company since 1990s and had trademark since 2016. They have not contacted me nor asked for anything from me. My argument is the following:

1. How can a decision be made within 2-3 working days?
2. Why was I not even made aware and not asked for any input?
3. Why was the registrar not made aware?
4. I never contacted the newspaper about the domain, they contacted me and made an offer and I made a counter offer.
5. The domain is generic, two albanian words
6. The newspapers trademark is from 2016 yet the domain was registered in 2013
7. One of the statements on the decision was that the domain was offered at "auction" which is not true. The domain was parked at bodis.com with an inquiry sales form.

So my question is, how can this case be approached? Any advice at all as this is not a .com domain...?

How much is this domain worth? I doubt that it would make sense to start any legal activities to save this domain, imo.

 

[Recons.Com]

Because they apparently run their registry on an arbitrary basis, like some other squirrelly ccTLDs.



...but still no link to the actual registry agreement.

Per Wikipedia:

Albania is a democratic and developing country with an upper-middle income economy. The service sector dominates the country's economy, followed by the industrial and agriculture sector.[9] Following the collapse of communism in 1990, Albania went through a process of transition from a centralized economy to a market-based economy.[10][11][12] Albania has a high Human Development Index and is ranked 13th in the Happy Planet Index, 38th in the Global Gender Index, 52nd in the Social Progress Index and 37th for Life Expectancy.[13][14][15] It provides universal health care and free primary and secondary education to its citizens.[5] Albania is a member of the United Nations, World Bank, UNESCO, NATO, WTO, CoE, OSCE and OIC. It is also an official candidate for membership in the European Union.[16] Furthermore, Albania is one of the founding members of the Energy Community, including the Organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation, and Union for the Mediterranean.

I bet in some of those indexes they rank very close to the US...

No need to bash a country because of a single company/entity.

And in this case, not sure they are even wrong. Apparently, the name is not so random and has been used by a newspaper for years. No one just randomly does word+word.cctld brandables, when there are so many premium word.cctld still available there.

 

[Kate]

If you think AKEP is behaving unfairly or outside established procedures, maybe you need to take your case one step higher - to the relevant ministry. It looks like the case has already been decided. Had they thought your input could change the outcome, they would have sought it.

 

[-EM-]

I'm not sure if the director or the party where it comes from, have anything to do with the case. This is due to zero experience. Domaining is still in its first steps in Albania and so is the understanding of this kind of cases.
I remember the explication given to me by akep about a year ago, there were a lot of problems in their logic. I should have opened myself a legal case as well, instead of moving on.
The good thing is, consumers are getting more and more attracted by al in the local market.

 

[-AR-]

New director under new government. The director is coming from the Socialist Party and he might have a different view on how justice and free trade works.


The .al registry is controlled directly from the Parliament if I am not mistaken.

AKEP is a government body which is not directly controlled by the Parliament, the Parliament would have ultimate say as they do over anything but not direct control. The problem is that the domains are simply not being treated as virtual assets in the eyes of the people that are managing them (in this case AKEP). However they are being treated as toys and AKEP is taking up the role of the nursery teacher who simply take the toy away from one kid and give them to another kid without any consideration of actual ownership. If that is the case then what is the point of owning any domains at all?

 

[jberryhill]

If that is the case then what is the point of owning any domains at all?

In .al? Now, that question is a better starting point, which is more or less what I was suggesting. Believing you should have rights, having rights, and having access to due and practical mechanisms of due process for exercising them, are three entirely different things.

"Due process" doesn't mean you get to win, it only means you have a sporting opportunity to try.

Now, people flock to places like Las Vegas for the entertainment of playing games in which the house has an ironclad mathematical advantage, and that's considered "sporting" as well, so... here's another one of life's inescapable truths - not everything is fair.

The concept of "fairness" is one to which we come to aspire as toddlers. There is nothing as entertaining in parenthood as the first time your child indignantly proclaims, "That's not fair!" While on occasion, the claim may have a tenuous connection to a larger concept of justice within some factually limited scope, more often that not, it is more accurately stated as "I didn't get what I want."

So, when you put down ten dollars, drew a 10 and a 2, said "hit me" and got another 10, did you, or did you not "get what you wanted" and was it fair?

The answer depends on what it was you were expecting to accomplish. Some might say that you did not get what you wanted, because you were expecting to win. If your expectation was to "win", then you should have not sat down at the table in the first place, because it is statistically irrefutable that over the long run, you will not "win" at blackjack in Las Vegas. On the other hand, if your expectation was "I wanted to play a round of blackjack", then all seems to have gone to your complete satisfaction.

So here's something to take with you:

1. You spins the wheel, you takes your chances.

But very few people stand up duly cleansed of their stake at a blackjack table and ask, "What was the point of playing at all?", bringing us to:

2. You can't win if you don't play.

It is quite clear that there are at least some persons in Albania with a different sense of what is "fair" in these circumstances than yours. Getting back to the early childhood development phase of a sense of "fairness", imagine the further development, or more frankly maladjustment, of that sense in a person whose experience of fairness has tilted substantially more toward "getting what I want". Further still, imagine the consequences of putting just those sorts of persons in charge of the mechanisms by which "fairness" is determined, or at least putting them in a position of substantial influence over it.

That, I believe, is what you are dealing with here.

Are you seriously suggesting, as a general proposition, that nursery school teachers are poor instruments of justice?

 

[mad409]

And yet another ccTLD issue, what up?

 

[jberryhill]

 

[jberryhill]

Ah, here it is....

Nëse marrim ankim, marrim emrin tënd. Për të marrë emrin përsëri, duhet të luftosh gomarin.

This seems to translate as: "If we get a complaint, we'll get your name. To get the name again, you have to fight the donkey."

"If donkey like you, you keep donkey too."

But, honestly, what do you really expect from the Albanian ccTLD?

 

[jberryhill]

Oh, and just to be clear, I was kidding about the .al dispute policy. They won’t really let you keep the donkey.

 

[-AR-]

Thank you for all your

Some registries can make a decision in just one minute. For example if you buy names for the sole purpose of resale and are warehousing them, they may put an end to your registrations.
Some registries will do nothing without a court order, a UDRP ruling or the local equivalent. Others are more interventionist and decide at their own discretion what is acceptable.

This is the first decision that has been taken by AKEP, there have been two previous disputes concerning two domain names and they were both dealt with by the Albanian courts, AKEP has refused to get involved in the past and simply remove a domain name.

The domain name is made up of two generic keywords, but the resulting string is most likely not generic. I mean, plain and dealer are both generic keywords. Plain Dealer isn't generic. There is a US newspaper that is just called that.

Correct, I agree with you here, but it is a lot more generic than "plain dealer" and a term used on a daily bases in the Albanian language

The newspaper or the holding company apparently has a history that goes back to the 90s, based on information posted here. Accordingly I imagine Albanians were already familiar with the newspaper name before you registered the matching domain name ?

Yes but the newspaper was simply a limited company until 2016. They got their trademark in 2016 yet the domain has been regged since 2013 surely they should not be allowed to simply pick and chose their domain address based on having been established as a limited company since the 1990s?

AKEP thinking must be something like this:

1. The registrant is somebody who is not Albanian and doesn't live in Albania (red flag)
   
2. He has put up the domain name for sale (= bad faith).
3. He doesn't know one word of Albanian but he somehow managed to register the name of a local newspaper in the correct spelling (squatter).
4. Unless the name is truly generic, there may be only one 'obvious' end user

I am actually not sure about #1 and #3.

1. Yes I am Albanian but do not currently live in the country.
2. The domain was parked and was for sale that should not be considered such a major issue.
3. I do speak the language so that is not an issue
4. Well yes they could have been one possible end user but not the only one

 

[-AR-]

What was the domain?
Have you contacted the Registrar?

Stop posting your stupidity here

I am trying to resolve the issue before I make it public because the truth is it would mean that all Albanian domains become reg fee if AKEP can come along and simply take the domain away as they wish. The Registrar are saying that this is an unfair decision and they were not informed of this themselves until the decision was made.

 

[-AR-]

why did you register this (two word!).al domain in the first place?

There are a lot of things that I would do but I would never think about registering .al domains

You might turn out to be right with decisions like this. Well I focused on registering many premium domains in the Albanian language such as tiles, car parts, vote, etc......simply because over time it will have to grow as a market. My intention was not to have any trademarks and over time I did try to develop some of these domains.

 

[-AR-]

Apparently they also want to bring out a sunrise period for Albanian businesses to be able to register their domains again.....so anything is on the table at the moment it seems.

 

[Vimal Kumar]

Just saw this text in Wikepedia...

Registration restrictions Free for anyone, some restrictions apply only on second level domains (ex: .com.al) which are allowed only for Albanian Citizens and Businesses registered in Albania

If the above is true, I sense you are not violating as you have .al and not .com.al

 

[-AR-]

Just saw this text in Wikepedia...

Registration restrictions Free for anyone, some restrictions apply only on second level domains (ex: .com.al) which are allowed only for Albanian Citizens and Businesses registered in Albania

If the above is true, I sense you are not violating as you have .al and not .com.al

I am an Albanian citizen......