Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[theinvestor]

Well, I just went through this thread from start to finish. I have to say this is a tough situation. The domain was sold and not renewed (Epik’s problem) and since they have control they simply just transferred the domain to the new owner.

Unfortunately, do I think $500 is fair compensation for @bmugford ? Absolutely not.

While the domain was registered to him it was obviously valued at 12K$ since that sale occurred. Whether prior to owning the domain or not.

So what would be fair in this case? I believe it is one of two options.

1. A transfer of the domain back since he is rightful owner since the domain did expire.

2. Epik needs to take the loss and send $12K to @bmugford

Although option 1 may not be possible at this point it really only leaves option 2. Even in this case this may STILL not be a fair solution but it’s the only one that is left without having to launch legal action.

 

[bmugford]

Well, I just went through this thread from start to finish. I have to say this is a tough situation. The domain was sold and not renewed (Epik’s problem) and since they have control they simply just transferred the domain to the new owner.

Unfortunately, do I think $500 is fair compensation for @bmugford ? Absolutely not.

While the domain was registered to him it was obviously valued at 12K$ since that sale occurred. Whether prior to owning the domain or not.

So what would be fair in this case? I believe it is one of two options.

1. A transfer the domain back since he is rightful owner since the domain did expire.

2. Epik needs to take the loss and send $12K to @bmugford

Although option 1 may not be possible at this point it really only leaves option 2. Even in this case this may STILL not be a fair solution but it’s the only one that is left without having to launch legal action.

I agree. Those seem like more equitable solutions.

Right now the best offer I have is $500 in Epik credit, and accusing me of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith". It doesn't seem like a real appealing offer.


@Braden Pollock

As an Epik shareholder, how do you feel about the (former) CEO making these statements?
Is it appropriate?

I believe I deserve an apology.

Brad

 

[Braden Pollock]

Oh come on Braden...what do you mean auctions are reversed all the time?

The name was removed a MONTH after!

Absolutely disgusting, how can you shrug your shoulders like this, this is a BIG deal.

Theft.

I’m not shrugging my shoulders. Just providing some perspective.

 

[Braden Pollock]

I agree. Those seem like more equitable solutions.

Right now the best offer I have is $500 in Epik credit, and accusing me of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith". It doesn't seem like a real appealing offer.


@Braden Pollock

As an Epik shareholder, how do you feel about the (former) CEO making these statements?
Is it appropriate?

I believe I deserve an apology.

Brad

You absolutely deserve an apology

 

[bmugford]

You absolutely deserve an apology

Thank you. I appreciate it.

I just don't appreciate when someone accuses me of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith" when all I have done is simply been transparent about what has happened.

If that is a poor reflection on Epik, it is not really my problem. I am simply reporting what happened, to the best of my knowledge.

Brad

 

[HotKey]

This makes zero sense. I’m the one that sold the domain. While the domain was in escrow, during the payment plan, it accidentally expired. Expired names at Epik automatically go to NL. There was no double dipping.

How does a domain "accidentally expire"? This is not a preclude to allowing the rules to be circumvented.

As far as I can tell, and I'm only a blue-collar bushwhacker, this domain withdrawal from a registrants account is completely illegitimate and thus far the excuses offered are just that. Brad is the legitimate owner of the domain purchased via legitimate means and as per NL FAQ:

Do I need to unlock my domains before listing at NameLiquidate?
Yes. The domains must be unlocked before submission.

Do I need to provide authorization codes at the time of listing on NameLiquidate?
Yes. Your domains must be unlocked and listed with a valid authorization (transfer) code.

It's a manual process done by the current registrant. Which means this domain was entered into NL physically and with full awareness of the actions set forth.

Further enlightenment on why this is being condoned by Epik upper management would be greatly appreciated because this really puts into question the security of any domain, really, in one's account there.

The only mistake I can see here is the unauthorized removal of an owner's domain name, and should be rectified. Anything else is an excuse for shameful accordance to some other mystifying rationale that boils down to an overreach by a registrar to a registrants asset.

If a registrant can't maintain the amount of pies they have fingers set into, meaning, have control over the names you input into NL or a passive escrow agreement or whatever, there is absolutely no one else that should have to pay the price for that kind of irresponsibility.

 

[Future Sensors]

A full, independent investigation by @bhartzer into the unauthorized removal by Epik may still be necessary in the future

 

[Keith]

This makes zero sense. I’m the one that sold the domain. While the domain was in escrow, during the payment plan, it accidentally expired. Expired names at Epik automatically go to NL. There was no double dipping.

Epik doesn’t have a deal with NL for expired domains? Of course they do. And if not, how do you support and invest in a company that is independent of a drop catch service but steals a domain out of an account after the auction from said service?

 

[bmugford]

Epik doesn’t have a deal with NL for expired domains? Of course they do. And if not, how do you support and invest in a company that is independent of a drop catch service but steals a domain out of an account after the auction from said service?

They are both owned by the same company, so any "expired" domain is being routed their by Epik's choice.
The only party involved is Epik Inc. They own Epik.com and NameLiquidate.com.

Brad

 

[Keith]

They are both owned by the same company, so any "expired" domain is being routed their by Epik's choice.
The only party involved is Epik Inc. They own Epik.com and NameLiquidate.com.

Brad

Of course.

That’s my point. Braden supports this company monetarily that does weird and unethical shit.

 

[Start]

all I have done is simply been transparent about what has happened.

There is some context that I think may have played a role
(and this is coming from someone who, when I see your username in a thread, I make a point to read your posts, because I generally find myself agreeing and get useful info)

I'm putting on a "mediator's hat", but maybe it can help:

I notice that you started this post/thread at 11:30am Pacific Time on Wednesday. And you wrote that
"I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet."

You were rightly frustrated and concerned about the domain disappearing.

But I'm guessing that Rob was probably frustrated that you posted the complaint publicly, instead of waiting for his response.

I think one should probably wait at least 12 hours or maybe 24 hours. Because a person might sleep-in, or be in meetings, or be out on errands, etc.

I just mention it because I'm sensitive to that type of thing, because I've dealt with someone posting a public complaint before, instead of waiting a reasonable timeframe (and I actually was asleep at the time). And personally, with my NamePros account, I signed-up with an email address that I don't check that often nowadays.

Also, did you contact Epik support directly? They have free webchat, and I think that would have been the next step, instead of posting on NP about it. Or actually maybe the first step.

Maybe you would have posted about it on NP the next day anyway, but at least there would be more details... imo, your posts here have been reasonable, but other people kind of got into the realm of conspiracy theories based on faulty assumptions.

I definitely understand your frustration with what happened, and if it happened to me, I would be stern with a registrar in asking what happened. But I think in general, people should wait longer before they go public.

 

[HotKey]

Alright so the domain expired and was automatically placed into NL without registrant fingers doing the work. I assume it was renewed but there is no automated deletion in place for removal from NL? Which completely protects the original registrant but not the new buyer? Even though, by all rights, new buyer becomes legal owner.

What exactly is the definition of "expired" then, and what rights do parties have when dealing with purchases and renewals? There is a certain point beyond expiry that indeed a registrant can get their asset back, but up until that point how can the asset be put up for a legitimate sale if it can be clawed back?

Effin' confusing and WEIRD.

Would love a 1-2-3 point-type post where what happened here is OK.

 

[bmugford]

There is some context that I think may have played a role
(and this is coming from someone who, when I see your username in a thread, I make a point to read your posts, because I generally find myself agreeing and get useful info)

I'm putting on a "mediator's hat", but maybe it can help:

I notice that you started this post/thread at 11:30am Pacific Time on Wednesday. And you wrote that
"I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet."

You were rightly frustrated and concerned about the domain disappearing.

But I'm guessing that Rob was probably frustrated that you posted the complaint publicly, instead of waiting for his response.

I think one should probably wait at least 12 hours or maybe 24 hours. Because a person might sleep-in, or be in meetings, or be out on errands, etc.

I just mention it because I'm sensitive to that type of thing, because I've dealt with someone posting a public complaint before, instead of waiting a reasonable timeframe (and I actually was asleep at the time). And personally, with my NamePros account, I signed-up with an email address that I don't check that often nowadays.

Also, did you contact Epik support directly? They have free webchat, and I think that would have been the next step, instead of posting on NP about it.

Maybe you would have posted about it on NP the next day anyway, but at least there would be more details... imo, your posts here have been reasonable, but other people kind of got into the realm of conspiracy theories based on faulty assumptions.

I definitely understand your frustration with what happened, and if it happened to me, I would be stern with a registrar in asking what happened. But I think in general, people should wait longer before they go public.

I respect your opinion, but I think posting this thread was the correct decision.
It is also of interest to many other parties as you can see from the responses.

When you remove the domain from my account without authorization, notice, or explanation then refund the money only after I stumble on it, without any other communication...I don't think you can really have any expectation of dealing with this privately.

It was only after this refund arrived, without any other communication that I posted this.
They were clearly aware of the issue, as the refund happened after I contacted them.

They also clearly thought this refund was an ample remedy.

Strike 1, Strike 2, Strike 3, Strike 4, Strike 5.

I will still give you a "Thanks" though, as I appreciate the feedback.

Brad

 

[Keith]

I really hope @jberryhill responds here. A company investor benefiting from shenanigans while said company supports it??

This is really a slap in the face to all of @epik customers.

Brad, please take this to other outlets like LinkedIn so the word spreads.

 

[Keith]

Let’s also acknowledge this -

@Braden Pollock entered an agreement to sell a domain, knowing it would expire during payment terms. He should’ve renewed up front and this all would’ve been avoided.

 

[ksusha64]

Brad @bmugford should ask for the name to be returned right away. Epik should respond to that request. If Epik refuses they should give legal explanation for it. Lets try to solve the problem right away instead of throwing insults and fluff around the issue.

 

[bmugford]

Let’s also acknowledge this -

@Braden Pollock entered an agreement to sell a domain, knowing it would expire during payment terms. He should’ve renewed up front and this all would’ve been avoided.

@Braden Pollock reached out to me and we had a discussion about his sale.
After talking to him, I am satisfied when it comes to his role in the sale.

It doesn't really change much though as it has really been known for a while that either Epik or the current registrant apparently failed to renew it, then clawed it back a month later.

This is quite a complex situation, and I look forward to ICANN looking into it.

Brad

 

[HotKey]

Well, by all accounts, moving pianos is definitely a pain in the ass. Even online.

 

[bmugford]

He should’ve renewed up front and this all would’ve been avoided.

That is a reasonable point. Any time I enter into a lease agreement I renew the domain until past the end of the lease.

Under the terms of the agreement, some party was responsible for renewing this domain.
They failed.

I am satisfied though that Braden did not have possession of the domain at the time.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Brad @bmugford should ask for the name to be returned right away. Epik should respond to that request. If Epik refuses they should give legal explanation for it. Lets try to solve the problem right away instead of throwing insults and fluff around the issue.

I have asked for it multiple times during the course of this thread, including in the first post.
All I got back was a $500 Epik credit and some insults in response.

Brad

 

[theinvestor]

I’d be interested to know how the process works with nameliquidate.com as I have never used it before. If the domain was never picked up by @bmugford would the domain have dropped?

In this case is it possible that @bmugford actually saved Epik by purchasing the domain and having it renewed under him?

In that case; I feel like if the domain dropped and the domain was not able to be transferred. Then who would be at fault? Would it be Epik or the domain owner? It seems that @Braden Pollock had this written off back in May.

So it’s even more of a reason that @bmugford should be compensated the full amount of the domain sale.

My 2 cents. That’s it from me on this and I hope it gets resolved. A fair solution for @bmugford as no domain should ever leave your account without authorization by domain owner.

 

[ivey]

so where did it move.. epik...rob..prev owner..

never used nameliq and dont plan to but maybe it's in terms the prev owner can change mind and get back name for say month. who knows. lame I know but who said some tos arent lame

But that shouldnt happen. At Godaddy when you pay for a name.. they wait until the real owner doesn't renew before they push the domain to you.

 

[ivey]

Once the domain is transferred to your account..the transaction is complete.

 

[bmugford]

But that shouldnt happen. At Godaddy when you pay for a name.. they wait until the real owner doesn't renew before they push the domain to you.

Epik is an ICANN accredited registrar.

Regardless of what their TOS says, they still have to follow ICANN policies.
It is what accreditation means.

Epik did not "obtain express consent" from me for a change of registrant, as required under ICANN policy.
They also did not "notify both registrants of COR per policy", as required under ICANN policy.

Brad

 

[Start]

It was only after this refund arrived, without any other communication that I posted this.

From your original post though, it sounds like you got the refund while you were in the middle of writing the post? (or almost finished)

The thing is, a refund only takes a minute, but writing an email with looked-up details might take 20-30 minutes. And maybe he didn't have time to write it at the time, and was planning to later in the day.

It was probably also a busy time preparing for the NamesCon conference, and maybe travel too.

And I still think people should wait probably 24 hours before going public about an issue.

At least then, a company has a chance to respond, and can fill-in some details. In the absence of details, we instead get people making incorrect assumptions and even coming up with faulty conspiracy theories.