Web browsers

[photomonkey]

I thought this would be an interesting thread.

Please name the browsers that you have used, and their best feature. mine are:

1. Firefox: Open in Tabs
2. Opera: Voice
3. ie: File -> close

 

[def1]

I dont get whats so great about firefox. I recently downloaded it and its not that great. I have to download a crazy amount of flash and java extensions just to hear music and play games. My browser has tabs, rss, and a search box at the right. Not to mention all the cool css image filters you can use that firefox and opera dont support. Am i missing something about ff

 

[Rowan W]

Chris,

I, don't, care, about, how, much, $, they, make.

IE may not be the best, and folks can cry over spilt milk until there's no more cows to come home, but what does it do? Does it make IE users bolt to another browser? (No).

No, it causes Microsoft improve their browser and make changes for the better.

whining about "it's not compliant" doesn't mean squat when 90% of the potential income careless about the web dev grumblings, and will continue to add to their misery

So then why has the IE team promised to release IE7 with these changes?
source: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

"In IE7, we will fix as many of the worst bugs that web developers hit as we can, and we will add the critical most-requested features from the standards as well. Though you won’t see (most of) these until Beta 2, we have already fixed the following bugs from PositionIsEverything and Quirksmode:"

* Peekaboo bug
* Guillotine bug
* Duplicate Character bug
* Border Chaos
* No Scroll bug
* 3 Pixel Text Jog
* Magic Creeping Text bug
* Bottom Margin bug on Hover
* Losing the ability to highlight text under the top border
* IE/Win Line-height bug
* Double Float Margin Bug
* Quirky Percentages in IE
* Duplicate indent
* Moving viewport scrollbar outside HTML borders
* 1 px border style
* Disappearing List-background
* Fix width:auto

"In addition we’ve (IE team) added support for the following"

* HTML 4.01 ABBR tag
* Improved (though not yet perfect) <object> fallback
* CSS 2.1 Selector support (child, adjacent, attribute, first-child etc.)
* CSS 2.1 Fixed positioning
* Alpha channel in PNG images
* Fix :hover on all elements
* Background-attachment: fixed on all elements not just body

Surely they wouldn't have to do this because they already own most of the market share. Theoretically they could leave it as it is and never release an update, because it comes pre-installed on windows and everyone has windows, right? They must be worried about something or they wouldn't have announced these changes.

Perhaps it's all the whining that has made them wake up, or maybe it's because FF has taken a good portion of the market share in a very short time.

"I think we will make a lot of progress against that in IE7 through our goal of removing the worst painful bugs that make our platform difficult to use for web developers."

What are your thoughts? (and please don't mention money again, I'm not planning to release my own software)

Do you honestly think whining is useless?

FYI, businesses DO care what customers say and they try to improve their services based on those suggestions. A business won't grow if it doesn't listen to it's customers and improve itself.

 

[jmweb]

I dont get whats so great about firefox. I recently downloaded it and its not that great. I have to download a crazy amount of flash and java extensions just to hear music and play games. My browser has tabs, rss, and a search box at the right. Not to mention all the cool css image filters you can use that firefox and opera dont support. Am i missing something about ff

Agreed! Downloading the extras isn't much of a turn on.

 

[ChrisKL]

Chris,

I, don't, care, about, how, much, $, they, make.

You should because that's-how-MS-hunts-down-a-firefox-trap-it-and-kill-it.

No, it causes Microsoft improve their browser and make changes for the better.

MS doesn't care what 10% of the market thinks, anymore than they're worried *nix is going to take away their investors.

So then why has the IE team promised to release IE7 with these changes?
source: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

For the same reason FF has to fend off these (it's looking just like the IE advisories as well)...

http://secunia.com/advisories/

Please don't insult the intelligence of people and try to pass off propaganda idealogy ("FF is good, FF is good!!"). Those in the know, know no browser is secure, and no browser is "safer". And I've been working on and in computers since 1983 (when customers had 3 choices; spend a mint on an IBM, spend a mint on an Apple/Mac; or get friendly with a solder gun and build your own from a kit), and I remember a drastically different internet -- one that was friendlier too -- because it was very expensive to jaw over a browser that never existed.

Surely they wouldn't have to do this because they already own most of the market share.

What's FF's excuse? Because it's free, so live with sloppy and shoddy work?

Theoretically they could leave it as it is and never release an update, because it comes pre-installed on windows and everyone has windows, right? They must be worried about something or they wouldn't have announced these changes.

Same could've happened if FF didn't have the same whiny users complaining. And MS will update their products, just like any other vendor.

Tell me, Rowan, when does MS announce it's patch updates? Do you even bother to note that it comes on a schedule? It's even a joke.

Perhaps it's all the whining that has made them wake up, or maybe it's because FF has taken a good portion of the market share in a very short time.

The whining doesn't do much good for those who have to visit tech sites and places like this and hear a very tired out argument over and over and over again. MS isn't here, anyway (or is that the reason for the whining? With no one to correct the whiners of misinformation and worse, they're free to say what's fabricated and even untrue).

What are your thoughts? (and please don't mention money again, I'm not planning to release my own software)

My thoughts are: folks should get laid more. Really. Because spending this time arguing over something that is in the middle of changes as it is (W3C is changing the formula again -- CSS 3.0 and beyond) is crazy.

Do you honestly think whining is useless?

This type. Yes.

FYI, businesses DO care what customers say and they try to improve their services based on those suggestions. A business won't grow if it doesn't listen to it's customers and improve itself.

When it's constructive and in the proper forum.

CKL
P.S. -- I don't diss MS, because MS provides jobs to 2 of my relatives (same goes for Intel). And because of those jobs, and the experience, I never had the problems with MS products, period. No worms, no trojans, no injections, no security exploits, and the only virus my computer ever picked up (and the anti-virus stopped cold), was when I was helping a friend by opening a file her computer couldn't open. That is for ***8 years***. If MS products are that bad, I surely would've experienced the same problems others complain about (and would've handed over to my 20 year experienced MS guru relatives to fix) -- I haven't even from stock installs. Seeing is believing, and I haven't seen it.

 

[SquireQuack]

I believe when FF first came out, it was safer than IE. It was new, barely anyone in the world used it. Hackers spent most of their time worrying about IE, and because it was so popular, the security was bypassed left and right.

 

[Rowan W]

You should because that's-how-MS-hunts-down-a-firefox-trap-it-and-kill-it.

But I don't care if Firefox loses market share. What's your point?

MS doesn't care what 10% of the market thinks, anymore than they're worried *nix is going to take away their investors.

It's not just about the 10% who don't use IE, it's also the many web developers who complain and ask for better developer support, ie standards and bug fixes.

IE Blog said: "I do want to be clear that I believe the Web Standards Project and my team has a common goal of making the lives of web developers better by improving standards support, and I’m excited that we’re working together to that end."

Obviously they don't want developers to continue criticizing IE, therefore they do care what we think - they've said it themselves numerous times on their blog. I'm sure they don't like recieving a bad reputation either, whether or not they will lose market share.

What's FF's excuse? Because it's free, so live with sloppy and shoddy work?

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or extremely narrow minded...

Same could've happened if FF didn't have the same whiny users complaining. And MS will update their products, just like any other vendor.

So, you're saying that Firefox is good because it's users whine? Thanks for the captain obvious. Although you don't have to whine about Firefox, you can report bugs to Bugzilla. Infact you don't have to use it, just use something else if you don't like it. The problem with IE is that most people don't try something else.

The whining doesn't do much good for those who have to visit tech sites and places like this and hear a very tired out argument over and over and over again. MS isn't here, anyway (or is that the reason for the whining? With no one to correct the whiners of misinformation and worse, they're free to say what's fabricated and even untrue).

I'm not whining to Microsoft, I'm whining to you. My information is not false nor fabricated or untrue.

Because spending this time arguing over something that is in the middle of changes as it is (W3C is changing the formula again -- CSS 3.0 and beyond) is crazy.

CSS doesn't change for each version, infact I believe everything since the first recommendation of CSS1 is still valid today. CSS2 was an addition to CSS1 and CSS2.1 was an update of CSS2. CSS 3, consequently will be an addition to CSS2 and has/will not remove anything from previous versions (as far as I know, prove me wrong).

I do know that a few HTML rules become deprecated as the standards evolve, but it is still recommended by W3C to continue supporting these deprecated rules for backwards compatability.

When it's constructive and in the proper forum.

As I said, I'm talking to you not Microsoft, that's why I go the the IE Blog and leave my feedback there.

If MS products are that bad, I surely would've experienced the same problems others complain about

How many sites have you coded with html and css? How many pages have you read on www.w3.org and how many HTML and CSS features have you tested in IE? I must tell you, I test a lot of things in IE and FF and I do my research to back up my findings.

Seeing is believing, and I haven't seen it.

Ok, now you can see it: http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/

 

[ChrisKL]

But I don't care if Firefox loses market share. What's your point?

For whatever Firefox loses in the market, MS gains to trap and kill off FF.

It's not just about the 10% who don't use IE, it's also the many web developers who complain and ask for better developer support, ie standards and bug fixes.

The standards change, Rowan. What's argued about today won't matter tomorrow.

From the beginning every browser branched off and their developers made their browser unique with additional features (remember NS's blink tags?). So as long as there competition, the market has to introduce special features to up the competition. But FF has a disadvantage: it can't add to the web design itself (as it tries to claim it's W3C compliant), which leaves only some bells and whistles which the general public usually won't use (most of FF's major addons are for developers). So FF starts off on the wrong foot, and can only expand on the browser, leaving MS to add the bells and whistles the general public goes wild over (and thus, they claim the market share over and over and over).

IE Blog said: "I do want to be clear that I believe the Web Standards Project and my team has a common goal of making the lives of web developers better by improving standards support, and I’m excited that we’re working together to that end."

Support, but that doesn't change proprietary code. MS can offer 2 modes (Dev and MS), and if MS makes MS mode default, guess where we're at again.

Have to read inbetween-the-lines, Rowan.

Obviously they don't want developers to continue criticizing IE, therefore they do care what we think - they've said it themselves numerous times on their blog. I'm sure they don't like recieving a bad reputation either, whether or not they will lose market share.

But the developers don't make up the capital. Mr. Bossman CEO is only interested in getting project A finished, he's not interested in if IE or FF are compliant, he wants the greatest return on his investment. If 90% of the market uses IE, guess which browser will get the business? Nipping at the heels doesn't matter, as what does is $$$$$$ (see how market share influences perception, and value?)

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or extremely narrow minded...

I'm claiming the same about you.

So, you're saying that Firefox is good because it's users whine? Thanks for the captain obvious. Although you don't have to whine about Firefox, you can report bugs to Bugzilla. Infact you don't have to use it, just use something else if you don't like it. The problem with IE is that most people don't try something else.

I'm not saying FF is good -- at all.

I don't use it other than to see how a web page looks in FF. It's too bloated, and memory used I don't need to be spent (I'd prefer it being used on some graphic programs instead).

I'm not whining to Microsoft, I'm whining to you. My information is not false nor fabricated or untrue.

Whining to me about IE, which is by extension whining about MS (as they're the ones that make it, and where the real ire is -- you don't hear the same BS about Opera because Opera isn't MS [even though web designers HATE Opera because of how it aligns elements]. It's the same BS that occurred during the 80's with IBM: kick whoever is on top down).

CSS doesn't change for each version, infact I believe everything since the first recommendation of CSS1 is still valid today. CSS2 was an addition to CSS1 and CSS2.1 was an update of CSS2. CSS 3, consequently will be an addition to CSS2 and has/will not remove anything from previous versions (as far as I know, prove me wrong).

I do know that a few HTML rules become deprecated as the standards evolve, but it is still recommended by W3C to continue supporting these deprecated rules for backwards compatability.

Oh, yes it does. Every new introduction of CSS gives us what? DEPRECIATED tags used in x/html, which means to put old presentation tags in CSS makes it what? -- NON-COMPLIANT. To continue using depreciated tags defeats the reason to even bother to use a compliant browser. It's like giving liquor to a drunk, and tell him to sober up.

And after the CSS series and the XHTML bridge, we're heading for straight XML with XSLT stylesheets. CSS will be around like NS4. As time goes on people stop coding for it, as it no longer is compliant to today's web standards. It used to be everyone of web dev merit made it comfortable for NS4 users, now if they do it's a credit.

Time changes everything. What's good or extolled yesterday is bad and junk today.

As I said, I'm talking to you not Microsoft, that's why I go the the IE Blog and leave my feedback there.

And I saying to you, you don't need to tell me anything about Microsoft. I have 2 relatives who make their money because of MS. If I want to know the dirty details and all, I just have to get on the phone and get it straight from them (which I'd trust much more than getting the news from folks who don't have a clue about MS's programs).

What you're preaching is to the peanut gallery to :snicker, snicker: MS, because that's where the real beef if -- so don't give us this "I'm just talking about IE" BS.

How many sites have you coded with html and css? How many pages have you read on www.w3.org and how many HTML and CSS features have you tested in IE? I must tell you, I test a lot of things in IE and FF and I do my research to back up my findings.

1. Too many.
2. Why would I even bother to talk about W3C if I don't bother to read their documentation?
3. I tested them in IE, NS, FF, and Opera.

If you test a lot of things, then you shouldn't be trying to pass off junk. I'll spell it out in big fat letters again...

NO BROWSER IS SAFER. NO BROWSER IS COMPLIANT.

It all depends on the user. And if the user has many problems with MS, it's often called "user error". Ask any programmer to know how variable that is alone.

Ok, now you can see it: http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/

Likewise...

[Read the entire thread as well]

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=815889&postcount=23

(I like competition, nothing wrong with it. But I can't stand wholesale propaganda and scaremongering. In a time when we need to connect the globe more to the web, and folks getting to use more ecommerce, the last thing we need is a war over some browser).

CKL

 

[Rowan W]

What have you got against standards, Chris? There may have been changes from CSS1 to CSS2 ( My mistake ), however CSS2 has been around since 1998 ( link ) and the changes from CSS1 were minimal. It's not like the standards should just be disregarded because they might change eight years later.

What's argued about today is relevant today, that's all that matters. It's been seven years since the last CSS specification was recommended, Microsoft still hasn't fixed basic CSS1 bugs in that time.

The reason you don't hear the same BS about Opera is because OPERA HAS ABOUT 1.5% MARKET SHARE, IF THAT. It also seems to have more standards support than IE even though it has some major flaws still.

From what i gather you don't support standards because they will be different in the future. So what's the point in focusing on todays standards if we won't be using them in five years time? Well, what's the point of eating now if I can just eat tomorrow?

I don't know where you're trying to go with this, are you trying to tell me that standards are useless or that Firefox is useless because it's not as widely used as IE?

If your answer is the latter then I'll let it rest, because I can't argue with that. Afterall I could just uninstall Firefox and only design with IE, then re-install Firefox to make sure it displays the same as IE. Then again, there might be a reason why I don't do that already.

 

[Indyan]

My fav is Opera
Best feature:Fit pages to window width

 

[peter phillips]

Firefox for Popup blocking, tabs browsing and the Google search built into the toolbar.

 

[Indyan]

All the features you mentioned were first implemented by Opera(except for tabbed browsing..first implemented by something caled Internet works or similar in 1994)

 

[WebWizard]

Features