UPDATE: Lawyer.im decision appealed & overturned!

[briman1970]

Can you believe that? They actually think that they are entitled to this ultra-generic domain because I'm in the states and they tried to register it first! They left the name in their cart for days before attempting to pay for it! How do I know this?... They actually made this statement in their complaint!!!

This really ticks me off.

 

[liquidcherry]

here is what u can do!!!!

Hi,

I just saw your thread, and i recommend register www.LAYWERSSUCK.COM , i checked it, it's available
Make a forum or a blog and as soon someone threatens u , post their name, letters, everything what you received from them and make it public

I know, it's not easy to handle the legal stuff in domaining but at least you can "flame" the guys who put some pressure on u.....

Cheers

liquidcherry

 

[mis_chiff]

Can you believe that? They actually think that they are entitled to this ultra-generic domain because I'm in the states and they tried to register it first! They left the name in their cart for days before attempting to pay for it! How do I know this?... They actually made this statement in their complaint!!!

This really ticks me off.

They're just pissed you got it first

 

[briman1970]

They're just pissed you got it first

That's what I'm thinking.

Hi,

I just saw your thread, and i recommend register www.LAYWERSSUCK.COM , i checked it, it's available
Make a forum or a blog and as soon someone threatens u , post their name, letters, everything what you received from them and make it public

I know, it's not easy to handle the legal stuff in domaining but at least you can "flame" the guys who put some pressure on u.....

Cheers

liquidcherry

I would get it if the proper spelling were available, but it's not, unfortunately. I've seen people put this kind of thing up on the site or domain that's being threatened.

 

[DNQuest.com]

I would get it if the proper spelling were available, but it's not, unfortunately. I've seen people put this kind of thing up on the site or domain that's being threatened.

But you need to pick and choose your battles wisely. This one, you are better off replying that the name is descriptive and generic and that's it. I wouldn't play games, especially since the other party IS a lawyer. They could file papers all day long since they have the vested interest in the domain. It would appear they are trying to bully you.

 

[dhscott]

In britain, there is no such thing as lawyers per say, we have solicitors and barristers, both are "lawyers" but it's not a term used much. Well, I don't use it anyway

 

[fonzie_007]

DNQ summed it up well. These guys can make your life miserable (if they want to). Give the standard defenses and you'll most likely win the case.

 

[DNQuest.com]

In britain, there is no such thing as lawyers per say, we have solicitors and barristers, both are "lawyers" but it's not a term used much. Well, I don't use it anyway

Isle of Man uses "lawyer", the US uses "lawyer"...

 

[Robert Allen]

LMAO. Some n00bish lawyer company...

Robert

 

[briman1970]

But you need to pick and choose your battles wisely. This one, you are better off replying that the name is descriptive and generic and that's it. I wouldn't play games, especially since the other party IS a lawyer. They could file papers all day long since they have the vested interest in the domain. It would appear they are trying to bully you.

This is what the IM DRP (https://www.nic.im/pdfs/disputeresolution.pdf) states...

"The Respondent has 15 days to provide a written response in accordance with section 10 below and with reference to section 4 demonstrating why it is not an abusive registration."

The lawfirm has made several "points" in their complaint. Should I address each one of their points or should I just make a paragraph that explains my position in reference to section 4 of the IM DRP... or should I do both?

 

[StoneRoses]

I wonder if i should be expecting a similiar letter i have solicitor.im.

 

[ripley]

This is what the IM DRP (https://www.nic.im/pdfs/disputeresolution.pdf) states...

"The Respondent has 15 days to provide a written response in accordance with section 10 below and with reference to section 4 demonstrating why it is not an abusive registration."

The lawfirm has made several "points" in their complaint. Should I address each one of their points or should I just make a paragraph that explains my position in reference to section 4 of the IM DRP... or should I do both?

Were I you, I would specifically refute each of their points, even if the answer is repetitive. Be as thorough as possible, these things matter when you're dealing with people who twist words for a living.

ripley.

 

[briman1970]

Thanks for all your advice fellas! Do you think it would be unethical or illegal to post the complaint here so that I may get further advice from Namepros members?

 

[RJ]

Are they claiming some sort of trademark rights to the term 'lawyer'?

Thanks for all your advice fellas! Do you think it would be unethical or illegal to post the complaint here so that I may get further advice from Namepros members?

I don't see a legal or ethical problem with that.

 

[bliss]

Lawyer is such a generic term they are not going to be able to claim a copyright to the domain. Unless the registar's TOS has anything about the shoping cart in it. I don't think they have anything tangable against you. They sound upset, because it seems like one of those I had a idea for a domain and it was free when I searched for it, but I waited a few day's to get it and someone else got it, damn them.

 

[Traveler]

Sucks that this has happened to you. I don't see how they feel they have a right to the name.

Keep us posted. I have a few .im names as well including realtor.im, would hate to get a letter from every realtor on the Isle of Man :hehe:

 

[briman1970]

Thanks everyone for your comments! Here is the complaint in it's entirety except for where I've edited out names and such. The comments in red are mine, of course.

4th August 2006
Domicilium (10M) Ltd Domicilium House
32-34 Malew Street Castletown
Isle of Man
IM91AF

Dear Sirs,

Complaint

1. We write to lodge a complaint about the abusive registration of a domain name that [A Bunch Of Noobs, Inc.] attempted to purchase on the 1st July 2006 when the new .im domain became available.

Okee Dokee

2. The background to the complaint is that at approximately 12.20 am on the 1st July, our IT Manager [Nick Domnoob] created a new account on the www.nic.im site and added, on behalf of the firm, inter alia, www.lawyer.im to his shopping basket.

Ok, you put the name in your shopping cart... good first step to registering it.

3. When Mr. [Domnoob] arrived at work on the following Monday morning (3rd July), he had received an email from Domicilium (the company who is regulating and managing the .im domain on behalf of the Government). The email requested that he click on a link to confirm the registration. Mr. [Domnoob] duly did so and at that stage, all of the domains that we had expressed an interest in were still in this firm's shopping basket.

So, you left the domain sitting in your basket over the weekend? Since it was still there when you got back to work, it MUST still be reserved for your firm! (I really don't understand why they got an email reminder from Domicilium though?)

4. On 4th July, Mr. [Domnoob] attempted to pay for the domains using a credit card. For some reason, the payment procedure failed. At this juncture, Mr. [Domnoob] contacted Domicilium and asked if they could invoice the firm for the various domains. Domicilium set up a new registration on the nic.im site and it was at this point that the domain name was lost, even though there was no negligence on our part. Mr. [Domnoob] was subsequently advised by Domicilium that as he did not complete the payment within one hour after commencing, the domains once again became available, notwithstanding that we had expressed an interest in the domains and contacted Domicilium with a view to arranging payment for them.

No negligence!?!? You left the domain in your basket for over 72 hours and then attempted to pay for it! I wonder why your payment failed!? BTW, I registered the domain on July 5th according to the whois! What were you guy's doing to keep you from getting the name? (Again, I am confused about their statement that "Domicilium set up a new registration on the nic.im site and it was at this point that the domain name was lost." How could it have been lost when my whois say's I reg'd the domain on the 5th???)

5. We are aware that the Respondent's details are as follows: [Me, my address, my phone, etc.]

Yup, that's me.

6. We understand that the nameserver that Mr. [Me] is registered under is what is known as a domain parking site where people store unwanted domains to sell them on later.

You are right about it being called a domain parking site. Good research! I really like the statement that "...people store unwanted domains to sell them on later." What an awesome idea. I have some domains that I don't want. I'll just store them here at Sedo until I decide to sell them.

7. We note that at paragraph 3 (A) (i) (a) of the IM Dispute Resolution Procedure, it states that "a non-exhaustive list of factors which may be evidence that the domain name is an abusive registration is ... circumstances indicating that the Respondent has registered or otherwise acquired the domain name primarily for the purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring the domain name to the Complainant or to a competitor of the Complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of the Respondent's documented out-of-pocket costs directly associated with acquiring or using the domain name".

This is where the true genius of lawyers comes into play. What a good way to use this paragraph against me. If I sell it to anyone in the practice of law, then that's a competitor (and a no-no). I haven't tried to sell it though, especially not to them. This of course would've been impossible, since I didn't know they existed. I've since decided that I won't sell it to anyone, for any amount of money, unless it's much less than what I paid for it (jk). Of course, I really chose this domain to later develop it. Just like every other dang domain I own.

8. It is absurd that the domain name is registered to someone in the United States who, in all likelihood, has no connection with the Isle of Man or more importantly, the law or the provision of legal services on the Island. It is clear that the Respondent has no other interest in the domain name except to make a profit.

Nope, that's where you're wrong. I am in this business to lose sleep, add stress to my life, provoke arguments with my spouse, spend less time with my daughter, lose massive amounts of money, and to generally kick myself over bad decisions. USA kicks ass, by the way!

9. The IM Rules at paragraph 3.2 states that "We (Domicilium) will accept applications which comply with the Rules and register domain names on a first come first served basis." In this case, it was only an error at the payment stage that caused the domain names to be lost. To all intents and purposes, this firm was the first to attempt to register the domain name.

How in the world can you make this statement? The only accurate statement that can be made about your activity was that you possibly were the first entity to put the domain in your cart. The attempt to actually register the domain came over 3 days later!

10. In the circumstances, we suggest that the domain name is transferred to this firm as the names were in our shopping basket and would have been paid for and registered had there not been a problem with the payment stage.

Yeah, uh huh, right. You obviously are under the misconception that once a domain is in your shopping cart, no one else can grab it while you're all out partying over the weekend.

11. In compliance with the IM Dispute Resolution Procedure, we confirm that the information contained in this complaint is true and complete to the best of our knowledge.

To the best of YOUR knowledge is probably an accurate statement.

12. We are not aware of any legal proceedings that have been commenced or terminated in connection with the www.lawyer.im domain name.

That's because there have been none. Duh.

13. [A Bunch Of Noobs, Inc.] will submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Isle of Man courts with respect to any legal proceedings seeking to reverse the decision requiring the suspension, cancellation, transfer or other amendment to a domain name registration and we agree that any such legal proceedings will be governed by Manx law.

Me too, I guess.

14. We agree that our claim and any remedies concerning the registration of the domain name, the dispute, or the dispute's resolution shall be solely against the Respondent and that neither you nor your employees shall be liable for anything done or omitted in connection with any proceedings under the Dispute Resolution Service.

This relieves Nic.im of all responsibility when it comes to the registrar's systems or actions leading to the loss of the domain in question. That's the way I read it anyway. The 1-hour+ lagtime, nic.im not explaining to you guys how a domain shopping basket works, etc... all is forgiven by this statement!

15. We also agree that if the Designated Official orders a transfer of the domain name, we will be bound by your Terms and Conditions for the Registration of Domain Names, and in particular, the provisions relating to your processing of personal data.

I don't see it happening, personally.

16. Our [personal android, Mr. Ly Likeadog], a partner in our commercial department, is available to discuss this matter on [their phone number and email addy].

I think that if you had a leg to stand on, they would have just transferred the name to you since you've proven so completely that it was entirely a series of unfortunate technical issues that resulted in the loss of YOUR domain.

We look forward to hearing from you on this matter.

Yours [pitifully],
[A Bunch Of Noobs, Inc.]

You probably can't tell by my humorous attitude but, I AM SOOOOO PISSED ABOUT THIS TIME WASTING BULLCRAP! :yell:

 

[psalzmann]

Hi,

From the sounds of it they are in IOM and you should simply work out a deal with them. The fact is you are a domain addict, you've created a business model around this and it (I assume pays *some* bills)

They look at you as some domain squatter from U.S that has no rights. The fact is you do have rights, but there is a line that must be justified.

1. You purchased the domain for resale/development.
2. They are upset, especially them being in IOM for starters and feel they deserve it .. most likely to stimulate their own business in the local area.
3. There is bad faith and of course .. plain ol' let's talk business.

If they are laywers, they will sue you and make it hurt. You will have some say in the matter and your voice will be heard but you may (in the end) pay the price.

I would advise you to get a laywer if not done so already, if you plan to persue. However, I'd hit them up first and mention it's for sale at a price which they should be able to afford.

"I have it, you want it, I registered it first, the name is generic and you simply need to pay for it."

Good luck!

 

[DNQuest.com]

Sucks that this has happened to you. I don't see how they feel they have a right to the name.

Keep us posted. I have a few .im names as well including realtor.im, would hate to get a letter from every realtor on the Isle of Man :hehe:

Realtor IS NOT generic.. it is a Registered mark which the NAR vigorously defends. That is an instant loss is challanged.

They are trying to bully you and you will be able to use thier own letter to you as a defense. It is a first come first served process. The lawyer did not purchase the domain, he was merely looking at it. By his own admission, he did not purchase the domain. As far as abusive registration..

7. We note that at paragraph 3 (A) (i) (a) of the IM Dispute Resolution Procedure, it states that "a non-exhaustive list of factors which may be evidence that the domain name is an abusive registration is ... circumstances indicating that the Respondent has registered or otherwise acquired the domain name primarily for the purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring the domain name to the Complainant or to a competitor of the Complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of the Respondent's documented out-of-pocket costs directly associated with acquiring or using the domain name".


They have to prove you know about them and they have to prove they have exclusive rights to "lawyer". This is the definition of abusive registration according to the DSP.

At this point, with the value of the domain, it is in your best interest to contact a lawyer, there are serveral good ones here. That is the best advise you will get on this one.

 

[dhscott]

These lawyers seem like they don't know computers much if they left their domain in a shopping basket over the weekend! I'd say it's fairly safe they don't know Computer laws either.

Take this example, if you are in a shop, and someone takes something from your basket, tehy aren't stealing it from you, it's still the shop's until someone has paid for the item at the checkout and you receive a receipt for your goods. You can moan as much as you like about this as the fact of the matter is is that they were trying to pay for something that shouldn't have been in their basket any longer.

Surely the error then is for domicilium to say it was in their basket still. You wouldn't say to a blind man that he still had a loaf of bread in his basket at the checkout, would you?

 

[dotcomocity]

if they sue you file a counterclaim ....... then it gets real expensive for them........ you may could even get a settlement off them when its all said and done... because if they cant pay for a domain name (obviously since they took 3 days to check out) after they have to start spending real money to move forward... they may want out more than you

 

[Robert Allen]

Just say to them 'I didnt break any laws and i didnt know you wanted to buy the domain, so i will be willing to sell the domain to you for £1000. That way it covers the costs of any legal stuff you plan against us and also pays for the domain costs and the time you have wasted.

I believe that this is a fair offer as we have not broken any laws which i can think of. It is just unfriendly business to send me all this lawyer jargon when you cant even understand the internet jargon correctly. I have been doing domains longer than you and i know the legal know-how of domains and you clearly dont, even though it is supposed to be your jobs.

It is your call mate. Make history with the first £xxxx .im sale or leave us alone to get on with our business. Remember that we have done nothing wrong and you have no right to just 'take' the domain off us. We are willing to put up a fight to keep this valueable domain.

Brian'

I am sure that you will get a good outcome. After all, if they are serious and want the name, they would do this.

 

[engineer]

Hi, call me bored... I am, I was looking for an excuse not to stuff envelopes and found this... I've been in situations like this before, not regarding domains but other legal type situations with people who have access to lawyer-hours (either lawyers themselves or deep-pocket company)...

Suggestions:
Say 'we', not 'I'... Refer to yourself as an organization, a company. Refer to assistance or advice you got as 'legal advice, legal direction, legal advisors, my counsel, my legal counsel'
Talk the lingo, if it can be said in 5 words, then use 10... Below, in red are my responses to this absurd claim...


1. We write to lodge a complaint about the abusive registration of a domain name that [A Bunch Of Noobs, Inc.] attempted to purchase on the 1st July 2006 when the new .im domain became available.

Quantify 'abuse'

3. When Mr. [Domnoob] arrived at work on the following Monday morning (3rd July), he had received an email from Domicilium (the company who is regulating and managing the .im domain on behalf of the Government). The email requested that he click on a link to confirm the registration. Mr. [Domnoob] duly did so and at that stage, all of the domains that we had expressed an interest in were still in this firm's shopping basket.

That is an issue between you (the 'lawyers') and Domicillum and is of no relevance to this matter.

In accordance with the laws and precedents regarding ownership of real-world ('real estate') or virtual ('domain names') property, I did complete registration and payment for the available name before you. In so doing, I became the legal & rightful owner of this domain name.

Contrary to your claim, placing the domain in your shopping cart by no means makes that domain your property, nor does it reserve the domain from registration by a third party. It is simply one step, in a multi-step process that is followed to secure any domain name. I can find no legal statute or precedent (re: IM Rules & Regulations, Domain Name Policy in General as defined by verisign, this and that...)


4. On 4th July, Mr. [Domnoob] attempted to pay for the domains using a credit card. For some reason, the payment procedure failed. At this juncture, Mr. [Domnoob] contacted Domicilium and asked if they could invoice the firm for the various domains. Domicilium set up a new registration on the nic.im site and it was at this point that the domain name was lost, even though there was no negligence on our part. Mr. [Domnoob] was subsequently advised by Domicilium that as he did not complete the payment within one hour after commencing, the domains once again became available, notwithstanding that we had expressed an interest in the domains and contacted Domicilium with a view to arranging payment for them.

Though I agree there was no 'negligence' on your part, I fail to understand how this matter concerns me. There are clearly defined guidelines regarding shopping carts, guidelines obviously known to you as you did repeat them in this correspondence. As you did not pay with the hour, your domain became available. At that time, another party bought it and completed registration.

Should this matter have been a technical issue at Domicilium then I would suggest taking it up with them for I am not an offending or even participating party in this dispute; that said: from the looks of it, this was not a technical issue but simply a matter of competition to a highly touted name. Domicilium acted according to rules, and released the name to the general public after 1 hour. It was at this time that I picked up the name and completed registration.

Surely you are not implying somehow responsible for the premature release of the name? Furthermore, is it your esteemed opinion that you should be governed by rules different than those of the domain community at large?





6. We understand that the nameserver that Mr. [Me] is registered under is what is known as a domain parking site where people store unwanted domains to sell them on later.

Your description of domain parking as ... is wholly mistaken. Domain Parking is a means of asset monetization. I own an asset, lawyer.im, and host content targetted advertising there. I am paid per-click on said ads. Furthermore, there is a link to contact me for those who are interested in bidding for the domain name. That said, it is by no means an 'unwanted domain', but rather a part of an overall business strategy that includes income from both targetted advertising as well as the outright sale of domain-name ownership.

7. We note that at paragraph 3 (A) (i) (a) of the IM Dispute Resolution Procedure, it states that "a non-exhaustive list of factors which may be evidence that the domain name is an abusive registration is ... circumstances indicating that the Respondent has registered or otherwise acquired the domain name primarily for the purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring the domain name to the Complainant or to a competitor of the Complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of the Respondent's documented out-of-pocket costs directly associated with acquiring or using the domain name".

As indicated previously, we (always use we when possible) did not register the domain for primary purpose of selling. As indicated above, we are involved in advertising, development and brokerage of virtual real-estate. Furthermore, we have solicited no party for purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring; on the contrary - you sought us out.

8. It is absurd that the domain name is registered to someone in the United States who, in all likelihood, has no connection with the Isle of Man or more importantly, the law or the provision of legal services on the Island. It is clear that the Respondent has no other interest in the domain name except to make a profit.

We hold, develop & host Internet properties worldwide. In developing such diverse Internet properties we seek to eliminate risk through the act of diversification. Our interest in .im properties is directly related to our aim to offer targetted advertising to users who are residents, visitors or otherwise have interests within the Isle of Man

9. The IM Rules at paragraph 3.2 states that "We (Domicilium) will accept applications which comply with the Rules and register domain names on a first come first served basis." In this case, it was only an error at the payment stage that caused the domain names to be lost. To all intents and purposes, this firm was the first to attempt to register the domain name.

What you fail to recognize is that you did not complete the application. In so doing, the name was released for registration by the next party. As I stated previously, this does not seem to be an error at the payment phase, but rather that when you tried to pay, the domain had already been taken. In any case, that is a matter between you and Domicilium and has no bearings on this case whatsoever

10. In the circumstances, we suggest that the domain name is transferred to this firm as the names were in our shopping basket and would have been paid for and registered had there not been a problem with the payment stage.

Until you COMPLETE an application in line with guidelines AND make payment in full for a property you are no more (and no less) the owner of the respective .IM domain than anyone within the public domain


We look forward to hearing from you on this matter.



I would reply in this type of fashion (As pissed red as you are, and you have every right to be) and make sure they know you are forwarding a carbon-copy (I would email and send via registered mail so they know you are serious, and let them know you are sending that way) to Domicilium and the NIC site :yell:[/QUOTE]

Just say to them 'I didnt break any laws and i didnt know you wanted to buy the domain, so i will be willing to sell the domain to you for £1000.

Don't even think about selling it. It is not contrary to the law of the .IM Registration but it could be construed as such (re: that point about selling). Don't play with fire, don't give them any ammunition.

I am sure that you will get a good outcome.

An issue that you may have is that they are filing this in the Isle of Man. Getting there is expensive and you could lose simply due to absentia. That's why I believe you should be corresponding strongly NOW, to both Domicilium & the registrar (who may end up dismissing it outright or being your best ally)

 

[NP41215]

Commenting on Engineer's suggestions:

Under paragraph 4., I would not concede that they (the lawyers) were not negligent. That concession is superfluous, as it won't help and in fact might hurt.

Remind them (the lawyers) that it's a generic term that they have no special rights to.

Remind them that the rule is "first to register", not "first to put in cart".

Putting in cart expressed at most an initial interest. Anyone can show interest or initial interest.

Failure to proceed to check out means abandonment, simple and clear as that.

Bottomline: No valid claim whatsoever.

 

[.X.]

Personally i think they suck...And i hope you get the opportunity to sit and laugh in thier faces....When the big boys come out and snare thier nostrils at you...Just remember....They have more money than you in most cases...And they can be sued.Best of luck with this briman,I hope you not only win this...i hope you set an example for those who think they will just file on people for no good reason.