information HSTF.com: Seller gets questioned about value, raises price

[News]

Chase asserts to have built Hostifi.net—now Hostifi.com—into a SaaS services provider that has generated $7 million dollars in revenue. There are no references to the net profits, however it should be sufficient leftover to acquire HSTF.com for $12,000 dollars.

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[MKA]

I didn't implied a sh*t. Don't put in my mouth things that I haven't said.

I didn't say you said it, I said you implied it. There's a difference.

The $7M amount is on his twitter profile.

Right, and it has nothing to do with the value of hstf.com.

So, I said "there's a price for that domain" (the price the domain owner has put for it) and you say the domain doesn't have a price because you demonstrated it by the sales data?

No, I never said that. You're conflating the terms price for value.

Now we will all have to ask you what price we should put on our domains, because you are the one that demonstrates a domain price by your sales data (the data that you want show of course).

You're conflating listing price, (outlier) sales prices, and value. These are different things.

It may be a nightmare for you, as it's clearly demonstrated by how are you triggered by the price the OWNER has put on this domain.

I couldn't care less about the listing price of the domain, or whether it sells.

I imagine that the following sales are more than a nightmare for you and won't let you sleep well at nights for over a year

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that it's a bad idea for domain investors to follow sales data? Because you shouldn't be investing in domains unless you do.

 

[Sutruk]

Cherry-picking high-end sales doesn't work for any category. Because there are always going to be statistical outliers.

Tell that to the sellers of those domains. If it was for you, those sales should never had happened... what a nightmare for you!!!! Because you are the special one, the "oracle" that will put the price of all of our domains!!!

 

[MKA]

Out of those 8 sales 8 are 4 letter .coms, even if they are a nightmare for you

Yes. But we're not discussing the value of arbitrary LLLL.com (because the majority here have agreed that most LLLL.com are worthless), we're discussing the value of "western premiums."

And if you take a sample (like outlier data) you should see a distribution very similar to this.

 

[Sutruk]

I couldn't care less about the listing price of the domain, or whether it sells.

The 4 pages of this thread where you are complaining about the asking price of hstf.com show a different thing.

 

[MKA]

Tell that to the sellers of those domains.

"Tell that playing the lottery isn't profitable to the lottery winners."

If it was for you, those sales should never had happened...

Likely, but the same can be said for the long hyphenated domains I referred to above. All it means is that I'm not interested in outliers.

what a nightmare for you!!!! Because you are the special one, the "oracle" that will put the price of all of our domains!!!

No, I'm just explaining patterns as I understand them so that I don't fall into the trap of filling up my portfolio with worthless domains.

If "western premiums" reliably sold for five figures they wouldn't frequently be liquidated for mid three figures.

The 4 pages of this thread where you are complaining about the asking price of hstf.com show a different thing.

I'm not complaining about the price, I'm simply pointing out that it's overpriced and that it is extremely unlikely to sell at that price-point based off sales data.

 

[Sutruk]

There's a price for that domain, and the guy is complaining on his twitter because in his own words "17 years and no buyers so the market says it’s not worth $12K"

It's not, as demonstrated by the sales data presented in the thread.

No, I never said that. You're conflating the terms price for value.

Yes, you said that, and I'm not conflating a sh*t.

I said "there's a price for that domain" and you replied "It's not". As demonstrated by the first two quotes of this post.

I guess the one "conflating" and "confusing" things in this thread it's you.

 

[Sutruk]

I'm not complaining about the price, I'm simply pointing out that it's overpriced

Again, the 4 pages of this thread where you are arguing against the price the domain owner has put for this domain show a different thing.

 

[MKA]

Yes, you said that, and I'm not conflating a sh*t.

No, you're conflating what's being said. Mr. Chase argues that it's worth $2,000 based off the aggregate he posted. In other words, the domain's value exceeded its price, hence it's overpriced.

I said "there's a price for that domain" and you replied "It's not". As demonstrated by the first two quotes of this post.

What I replied to was what's highlighted below:

This should've been made clear by the elaboration that followed (and the grammar, i.e. "it's not" versus "there's not.")

 

[MKA]

Again, the 4 pages of this thread where you are arguing against the price the domain owner has put for this domain show a different thing.

To argue isn't to complain. It's to present your reasoning for your ideas when the validity of those ideas are challenged. It doesn't mean that I'm "mad," "seething," or "loosing sleep" over it. All it means is "these are the facts as I perceive them, and here is why."

In fact I (like most people), like my ideas to be challenged, because it allows me to identify misconceptions. In fact I wouldn't be participating in this thread if I weren't interested in what other people had to say.

 

[Sutruk]

No, you're conflating what's being said. Mr. Chase argues that it's worth $2,000 at best based off the aggregate he posted. In other words, the domain's value exceeded its price, hence it's overprieced.

Taking your argument, sex.com should never had been sold for more than $10 bucks because that's the price it cost to the first domain owner, and for the potential buyer, "it's not worth" more than $10 bucks.

And then you are justifying the value of a domain by its wholesale data, not by its end user data.

"Tell that playing the lottery isn't profitable to the lottery winners."

No, according to you, even those lotterey winners should never had happened, because, you know, their ticket wasn't worth the prize.

I had presented you some 4 letter .com sales proving they have been sold for even more than $12K, but you keep showing wholesale data for whatever 4 letter .com auctioned domain sales.

Well, the fact is that all those 4 letter .com domains that you are showing are not, any of them, hstf.com. And the fact is that the domain owner has placed a price for his domain, and you can take it or leave it. But don't tell him what price he has to put to his domain, mainly because it's his domain, not yours.

If you couldn't find a sale of a 4 letter .com, then I would undestand your arguing. But there are sales for these type of domains quite above the $12K price. So don't come here telling him what price he has to put, or how much it's worth, because neither you nor the "interested" buyer will price this domain, basically because neither you nor he owns it.

 

[MKA]

Taking your argument, sex.com should never had been sold for more than $10 bucks because that's the price it cost to the first domain owner, and for the potential buyer, "it's not worth" more than $10 bucks.

My arguments are based off recent sales in a robust aftermarket with tracked sales data. They do not apply to sales that occurred ten years ago, let alone when the aftermarket was in its infancy.

And then you are justifying the value of a domain for it's wholesale data, not for it's end user data.

If the vast majority of sales are wholesales (i.e. investors selling to other investors) and not to end-users, then that's evidence of an overvalued asset.

No, according to you, even those lotterey winners should never had happened, because, you know, their ticket wasn't worth the prize.

No, their lottery ticket was worth the price. But lottery tickets (in general) are not.

And I don't invest in LLLL.com for the same reason I don't play the lottery.

I had presented you some 4 letter .com sales proving they have been sold for even more than $12K, but you keep showing wholesale data for whatever 4 letter .com auctioned domain sales.

And I've showed you recent sales of long hyphenated domains over $12,000 too. Are you going to invest in long hyphenated domains because of that? Of course not. Why? Because despite those sales, long hyphenated domains are bad investments.

Well, the fact is that all those 4 letter .com domains that you are showing are not, any of them, hstf.com.

hstf.com has never sold, but that doesn't mean that the value of it is zero. There's one guy in this thread willing to pay $500 for it, so it's wroth at least that. But it's not selling for $15,000 meaning it's not worth more than that either.

And the fact is that the domain owner has placed a price for his domain, and you can take it or leave it. But don't tell him what price he has to put to his domain, mainly because it's his domain, not yours.

I'm not even interacting with the owner, and I couldn't care less about how people price their domains.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect this domain to sell for more than three figures if it was auctioned off today. Furthermore, it's a type of domain that's not particularly interesting to end-users.

If you couldn't find a sale of a 4 letter .com, then I would undestand your arguing. But there are sales for these type of domains quite above the $12K price. So don't come here telling him what price he has to put, or how much it's worth, because neither you nor the asking buyer will price this domain, basically because neither you nor him own it.

You're back to arguing that lottery tickets are worth millions because you could win a hundred million playing the lottery. It doesn't work that way. You have to look at aggregates. Everything else is uninteresting.

 

[Kyle Tully]

You don’t seem to grasp some of the basics of the domain market.

1. A huge number of wholesale sales are reported. E.g. all the Godaddy sales you keep referencing.

2. ~99% of retail sales are not reported.

3. At wholesale a domain will sell for a fraction of its retail price because the wholesalers criteria is much broader than a retail buyer.

4. For a retail buyer with a specific name in mind, other sales data (especially wholesale) has virtually zero impact on their purchase. They either value the name at the asking price or not.

5. Just because you don’t understand one niche of domain investing doesn’t mean others aren’t making a fortune in it

I have no dog in this fight. It makes no difference to me if you understand any of this or not. But hopefully others reading are a little more open minded.

 

[winst]

We can argue about the true value of a domain name all day. Ultimately, the seller and buyer have to agree on a value to complete the transaction. Sometimes, there is no logic behind it, just because the buyer or the seller has an emotional attachment to the name.

I sold a four-letter, non-acronym dot com a few years back. I held it for 15 years. What many would-be buyers did not know was that I regularly received offers for $50, $200, $2000, and $10,000. Many tried to argue with me what my domain name was really worth. Eventually, I negotiated a $40k price to sell to a corporation.

$40k is a small budget for a company that spends millions each year on marketing a new product. But if the company is only buying the name for internal use, of course, it is not worth $15,000 to the buyer. As a seller, I really don't care if a buyer can justify the price or not.

 

[DomainNature]

I think such short acronym domains are worth allot if they coincide with some million or billion worth company with such stock.
So I would pay attention to such detail, you never know you may have such a jewel of domain, I personally not have any 4L com domain in my portfolio.
The seller should do an investigation and price it even with more, if that moran wants the domain he should buy it, because from what I understand he is not after anything else but this one domain. So dear buyer if you want it go buy it and don't waste our time here, crying on Twitter that you can't pay more, someone else will see more value one day.

 

[E-Thunder]

I would price this one at $19,995 if I owned it.

 

[MKA]

1. A huge number of wholesale sales are reported. E.g. all the Godaddy sales you keep referencing.

I mentioned this before, but if the majority sales are to other investors then that's indicative of an overvalued asset.

2. ~99% of retail sales are not reported.

I'm not sure whether that number has any merit, but it doesn't change anything because it's sales we don't have access to. We do know that wholesales occur behind the scenes too. In fact, they're very frequent because escrow services are cheaper than aftermarket commissions.

3. At wholesale a domain will sell for a fraction of its retail price because the wholesalers criteria is much broader than a retail buyer.

Yes. But we're talking about a category of wholesales in the three-figures, with expectations to sell in the five figures.

The only way these numbers make any sense is if the domains have a return of investment rate of just over 1% over 10 years. And that's assuming that investors know what they're doing.

4. For a retail buyer with a specific name in mind, other sales data (especially wholesale) has virtually zero impact on their purchase. They either value the name at the asking price or not.

This is not the case as demonstrated by the topic of this thread. Mr. Chase didn't want to spend more than $2,000 on hstf.com, which allegedly is based off an aggregate of wholesales.

5. Just because you don’t understand one niche of domain investing doesn’t mean others aren’t making a fortune in it

That may well be the case. But based off the sales data I have access to I'm not seeing it.

I have no dog in this fight. It makes no difference to me if you understand any of this or not. But hopefully others reading are a little more open minded.

Being open-minded isn't the same thing as blindly accepting what people tell you. In fact it's the opposite of that. I'm looking at the sales aggregates trying to make sense of the numbers and people here are responding with counter-arguments like "Look at this crazy sale! Guess you're wrong huh?!" Seemingly completely ignorant of the concept of outliers.

We can argue about the true value of a domain name all day. Ultimately, the seller and buyer have to agree on a value to complete the transaction. Sometimes, there is no logic behind it, just because the buyer or the seller has an emotional attachment to the name.

You agree on a price, which is the value at the time of the purchase, but not necessarily the value after the purchase. Other than that what you're saying is true. The only caveat here is that I'm only looking for ones with logic behind them, i.e. not the lottery tickets.

I sold a four-letter, non-acronym dot com a few years back. I held it for 15 years. What many would-be buyers did not know was that I regularly received offers for $50, $200, $2000, and $10,000. Many tried to argue with me what my domain name was really worth. Eventually, I negotiated a $40k price to sell to a corporation.

Non-acronyms (i.e. pronounceables) can be fairly valuable, something like namo.com is a treasure, but it's not what we're discussing here. On top of that this is anecdotal evidence. I'm not calling you a liar, but it's not something I can verify and therefore not something I'm going to base my investments off of.

$40k is a small budget for a company that spends millions each year on marketing a new product. But if the company is only buying the name for internal use, of course, it is not worth $15,000 to the buyer. As a seller, I really don't care if a buyer can justify the price or not.

Any high sale has to be justified. You can give up on clients that can't justify the price, but that's not necessarily the best strategy. We have plenty of stories of sellers being firm on the price, and when they come down the client has moved on, and they've missed out of the six-figure deal they're never going to see again.

The seller should do an investigation and price it even with more, if that moran wants the domain he should buy it, because from what I understand he is not after anything else but this one domain.

Then you do misunderstand the situation because he is looking for alternatives.

So dear buyer if you want it go buy it and don't waste our time here, crying on Twitter that you can't pay more, someone else will see more value one day.

It's not that he can't pay more, it's that he doesn't want to pay more than what it's worth. I'd take it one step further and say that hstf.com is unlikely to eve sell at the given price point. Because from a marketing perspective it's ineffective as a brand.