Dot Pro Names?

[TLDnetworks]

Anybody pick up a .pro name with the promotion?

I'm taking a chance on two;
Portfolio.pro
and
Data.pro

Might just keep Portfolio.pro...

 

[Binfus]

I believe this is simply an attempt at a loophole to sell domains to resellers that may not have a valid right to keep them, I also think it is very risky and could cost you later. It would be nice if Duke, a NameJournal associated reporter, or other trusted body could get a statement from registrypro.pro on this issue before members here spend a lot of money with encirca speculating on the equivalent of swamp land in Florida.
By registrypro/ICANN rules, to hold any second or third level .pro domain, you are required to be qualified by verifiable credentials under one of the following classifications:

cpa.pro (Certified Public Accountant)
law.pro (Lawyer)
med.pro (Medical Degree)
aca.pro
bar.pro (Member of Bar Association)
jur.pro (Judge or similar)
eng.pro (professional engineer)

There is a rule that says you domain can be disputed as not qualifying. Therefore, could be taken by someone who is qualified without recourse. This means that if you register something like vehicles.pro, and a lawyer who specializes in vehicle law and owns maybe smith.law.pro want to showcase his specialty by having vehicles.pro, you will probably have to forfeit to him for violation of the registry agreement if you don't qualify for a third level domain.

Here is a summary of the rules currently on the registrypro site:


I think this situation is definitely Caviat Emptor!

However, if you are the gambling type, or do legitimately qualify, these are availableas of posting, since I don't have any interest at this point:

Programming.pro
Coding.pro
auctioneer.pro
unix.pro
perl.pro
incometax.pro
LemonLaw.pro
skiing.pro
printing.pro
trucking.pro
driving.pro

NP$ appreciated if these help you.

Unless the registry adressess this situation directly one way or the other there's definitely some risk involved....I have gotten myself quite a few but having eligibility and documentation (if required) for one of the .pro categories, I felt safer by going with geo type names like NewYork.pro, Atlanta.pro, etc.

 

[Fundraiser]

There is a rule that says you domain can be disputed as not qualifying. Therefore, could be taken by someone who is qualified without recourse. This means that if you register something like vehicles.pro, and a lawyer who specializes in vehicle law and owns maybe smith.law.pro want to showcase his specialty by having vehicles.pro, you will probably have to forfeit to him for violation of the registry agreement if you don't qualify for a third level domain.

The registry agreement does not appear to delve into use of the domains by the registrant who in this case is Encirca. Encirca likely uses the qualifications of an in-house cpa and in-house lawyer to obtain the second level domains that are then subleased through their ProForward service. The names are currently being subleased by the person named as the administrative contact for $49 under contract from the registrant of the domain, Encirca.

If someone challenges the registrant, they challenge Encirca, not you or me. If Encirca has verified licensed registrants in two of the approved third-level professions, the challenge fails.

As Binfus points out, being able to qualify for at least one (two for a resolving domain) approved third-level name is a nice safety net in case things change in the future. I have that contingency plan in place in case we decide to convert the names we registered to second-level resolving domains because we choose to or because we have to.

 

[sharename]

These domains are pre-qualified

The registry agreement does not appear to delve into use of the domains by the registrant who in this case is Encirca. Encirca likely uses the qualifications of an in-house cpa and in-house lawyer to obtain the second level domains that are then subleased through their ProForward service. The names are currently being subleased by the person named as the administrative contact for $49 under contract from the registrant of the domain, Encirca.

If someone challenges the registrant, they challenge Encirca, not you or me. If Encirca has verified licensed registrants in two of the approved third-level professions, the challenge fails.

As Binfus points out, being able to qualify for at least one (two for a resolving domain) approved third-level name is a nice safety net in case things change in the future. I have that contingency plan in place in case we decide to convert the names we registered to second-level resolving domains because we choose to or because we have to.

=================
Guys, EnCirca appears to have this issue covered.

Under RegistryPro rules, since these domains immediately resolve, that means that EnCirca has already submitted valid credentials for the registrant handle for two third-level domains, otherwise, the registration for a second level domain would never be accepted by the registry. So, there is no paperwork required for these domains.

These credentials need to be re-submitted on an annual basis by EnCirca as the registrant. As long as they have a lawyer and CPA, we'll never have to submit any credentials. It appears that EnCirca has found a legitimate way to offer second level domains.

 

[RJ]

It is legitimate, and Encirca seems to have all the bases covered. It is basically a loophole in the registry agreement that they are exploiting in order to offer these domains.

Because offering these names to the general public violates the spirit of the purpose of the registry, problems may occur later if RegistryPro decides to turn against this practice and modifies their agreement. I expect they will because this will definately lead to other registries trying to get in on this new market using the same loophole. If this does happen, I'm unsure if our registrations would be grandfathered in or revoked if this were to happen.

 

[IAmAllanShore]

Hard to get around grandfathering those in that exist already (See .edu), so I think those that are in are fairly safe, offering my Nostradamus view.
-Allan

 

[William9]

But, based on sharename‘s post above, isn’t deciding whether or not to change the Registrant information of Encirca registered .PRO domains significantly important - and maybe a no-win situation?

RISK OF CHANGING REGISTRANT FROM ENCIRCA

=================
These credentials need to be re-submitted on an annual basis by EnCirca as the registrant. As long as they have a lawyer and CPA, we'll never have to submit any credentials. It appears that EnCirca has found a legitimate way to offer second level domains.

Changing registrants from Encirca may risk not meeting those requirements.

RISK OF NOT CHANGING REGISTRANT FROM ENCIRCA

Maybe I am wrong, but hasn’t Encirca violated the .PRO ICANN agreement called Unsponsored TLD Agreement: Appendix I (.pro)Registry Code of Conduct) at http://www.icann.org/tlds/agreements/pro/registry-agmt-appi-01mar01.htm ?

Specifically, paragraph 3. prohibits warehousing of domains:

"3. RegistryPro and its shareholders and subcontractors shall not in any way attempt to warehouse or register domain names in their own right, except for names designated for operational purposes in compliance with Subsections 3.6.1 and 3.6.2 of the Registry Agreement. In its Monthly Report to ICANN, RegistryPro shall include a list of all names designated for operational purposes."

There are similar clause in all the new TLD agreements and taking action against registrars is NOT unprecedented.

I vaguely recall registries taking action against two registrars accused of blatant warehousing. The first was a registrar of .Biz who registered thousands of domains and immediately put them for sale at a premium on a domains-for-sale page. The .BIZ registry took immediately and swift action. No need to mention the registrar, but it caused my to catch my first .BIZ drop.

The other involved a .INFO registrar, but as I recall the registrar elected to change the name of the registrant to 1,000s of names (relatives?) before the registry acted.

So, I am concerned that after 3 months (to prevent charge-back disputes), every .Encirca registrant .PRO is nuked. The strongest argument against that is that the registry needs the funds and prefers our registrations rather than no funds.

I would appreciate it if you would post any risk related to changing registrants which I ignored to indicate above – as I haven’t decided what to do. Thank you.

 

[AdoptableDomains]

Hard to get around grandfathering those in that exist already (See .edu), so I think those that are in are fairly safe, offering my Nostradamus view.
-Allan

Grandfathering what existed before registry agreements were amended is one thing. Grandfathering what may be seen as a clear viloation of an existing agreeemnt is another.

I think they pretty much have that covered here:

from Encirca's user agreement:

Applicant acknowledges that Registrar shall be solely responsible for providing Applicant with services with respect to (a) its application for a Registered Name and (b) in the event such application is accepted, for all ongoing services with respect to its issued Registered Name. Applicant further acknowledges that RegistryPro shall have no obligation to provide such services to Applicant. Applicant agrees it has no contractual relationship whatsoever with RegistryPro and that Applicant is not a third party beneficiary of any agreement between RegistryPro and Registrant. Applicant further agrees that RegistryPro will have no legal, equitable or other liability of any kind to Applicant.

And does this make you feel any better (Also in encirca's user agreement):

Applicant acknowledges that if, pursuant to the performance of the initial verification services or annual verification services, Registrar determines that Applicant does not meet or does not continue to meet the applicable .Pro registration requirements, Registrar shall be entitled to retain a processing fee of $200.00 in connection with the performance of the initial verification services and $200.00 in connection with the performance of the annual verification services.
...
b) Represent and warrant that the registration satisfies the applicable .pro restrictions at the time of registration;

...
The Registered Item Holder represents and warrants that, at all times during the term of Registered Item registration, he, she, or it meets the .pro registration requirements set forth by Registry Operator for the registration of the Registered Item Holder's registration. The Registered Item Holder is required to provide prompt notice to Registrar if it fails to meet such registration requirements. Registrar and/or Registry Operator shall have the right to immediately and without notice to Registered Item Holder, suspend, cancel or modify a Registered Item Holder's registration if, at any time, the Registered Item Holder fails to meet the registration requirements for such domain name or Defensive Registration."

From the registrypro/ICANN agreement:

7.1.1 the registrant represents and warrants that he, she, or it meets the registration requirements for, as the case may be, (a) the Registered Name or Standard Defensive Registration within the PS-SLD in which the Registered Name is being registered or (b) the Intellectual Property Defensive Registration;

7.1.2 the registrant agrees to notify the Authorized Registrar promptly of any change in circumstances that causes the registrant no longer to meet the registration requirements for, as the case may be, (a) the Registered Name or Standard Defensive Registration within the PS-SLD in which the Registered Name is being registered or (b) the Intellectual Property Defensive Registration;

7.1.3 in the case of a Registered Name or Standard Defensive Registration, the registrant represents and warrants that the registrant and qualification data (and, for a Registered Name, other data required for the issuance of a digital certificate) that he, she, or it is submitting is true and accurate;

7.1.4 the registrant agrees to provide to the Authorized Registrar prompt corrections and updates to the registrant's contact details throughout the term of the registration;

7.1.5 in the case that the registration is being made in the name of an organization or other entity, the person acting on behalf of such organization or entity is authorized to do so;

7.1.6 the registrant agrees to be subject to and abide by the RegistryPro Intellectual Property Defensive Registration Challenge Policy for .Pro, Rules for Rules for Intellectual Property Defensive Registration Challenges for .PRO, Qualification Challenge Procedures (as set forth in Appendix M), and the UDRP; and

7.1.7 violation of any of the provisions described in Subsections 7.1.1 through 7.1.6 of this Appendix L shall be grounds for termination of the registration, without any refund of fees to the registrant.

Because offering these names to the general public violates the spirit of the purpose of the registry, problems may occur later if RegistryPro decides to turn against this practice and modifies their agreement. I expect they will because this will definately lead to other registries trying to get in on this new market using the same loophole. If this does happen, I'm unsure if our registrations would be grandfathered in or revoked if this were to happen.

Two other possibilities:

1. ICANN takes action against the registry (registrypro) for not following the spirit of the agreement.

2. The professionals that paid $500+ per domain to be exclusive will file a class action against eveyone involved in duluting their expensive and exclusive position. (remember, one of the exclusive groups is in the .law.pro division) OR, they could quickly take those names for themselves by using the challenge of professional status provision.

In addition, the registrypro policy on second levels, states that the second level forwarding domain MUST point to a third level .pro domain, making it virually useless undeveloped when you don't have access to that third level domain. (I forsee an end to allowing otherwise).

 

[Ron Jackson]

The professionals that paid $500+ per domain to be exclusive will file a class action against eveyone involved in duluting their expensive and exclusive position. (remember, one of the exclusive groups is in the .law.pro division)

This is the other shoe I keep thinking might drop. Exclusivity for professionals was a key selling point for .Pro when it was sold to the original buyers. Now a high school dropout can register CrackPipes.pro for example. That completely changes what .pro was meant to be and it's hard to believe there won't be some fallout from that.

 

[Mark]

This is the other shoe I keep thinking might drop. Exclusivity for professionals was a key selling point for .Pro when it was sold to the original buyers. Now a high school dropout can register CrackPipes.pro for example. That completely changes what .pro was meant to be and it's hard to believe there won't be some fallout from that.

:lol:

I know a few Professional Engineers that couldn't have put it any better .... Actually .... I know one that +/- said it Exactly this way ! :talk:

Even though it isn't quite the same .... Lots of folks felt the same way about the "FREE" .Info promotion ......

 

[AdoptableDomains]

This is the other shoe I keep thinking might drop. Exclusivity for professionals was a key selling point for .Pro when it was sold to the original buyers. Now a high school dropout can register CrackPipes.pro for example. That completely changes what .pro was meant to be and it's hard to believe there won't be some fallout from that.

Even though the "oldest profession" is said to be prostitution, I don't think the doctors, attorneys, CPA's and engineers want to share their exclusive domain with them.

So far, prositute.pro, prostitution.pro, and hooker.pro have not been registered, and sex.pro is too short to be allowed, but I wouldn't count on that for long. :]

However, poker.pro and gambling.pro are registered.

Another reservation I have is that technically, encirca is the registrant supplying the credentials. There really is no contractual relationship in place that would satisfy me to even develop a .pro under the current circumstances not being an owner/registrant under ICANN rules. You are at their mercy in the event of a UDRP, trademark, or professional certification dispute. Does anyone really think they would defend the domain for you in this circumstance, or just hand over the domain? As admin party only, would you have any right even to defend the domain?

On the bright side, the more speculators spend at $50 a pop on .pro domains, the less they have to compete with me in the legitimate com/net/org/info/biz/us field. :hehe:

 

[Fundraiser]

Even though the "oldest profession" is said to be prostitution, I don't think the doctors, attorneys, CPA's and engineers want to share their exclusive domain with them.

So far, prositute.pro, prostitution.pro, and hooker.pro have not been registered, and sex.pro is too short to be allowed, but I wouldn't count on that for long.

It's been registered for a while which brings me to this point.

Even without what Encirca is doing, today a person who is both a cpa and lawyer (I have two friends who are) or an organization that performs services in those or the medical field and employees at least two approved professions, can register as many second level domains as they like without a limit to use. If they decided to register CrackPipes.pro, they could. One would hope that being "professionals" they would not but there is no barrier. The domains Travel.pro and Sex.pro are registered by M Schatte who one would think qualifies under two approved professions and specializes his legal, medical or accounting services in travel and sex. No, he actually has and used a registered trademark for "sex" to sell refrigerator magnets. He also has registered trademarks for sex in several other categories as well as "porno" and "porn" for magnates or paperweights. He also registered porn.pro and porno.pro. How convenient. That certainly was never intended by the .pro registry and yet it exists. He doesn't have a trademark for travel that I know of but he has the travel.pro domain. Many of the names personally registered by M Silver are second-level resolving names which means he too has to qualify under two approved professions and yet he registered a large number of the best second-level names. Is it an abuse of the spirit of the registry or a shrewd business decision to exploit a loophole? Hell, cpas and lawyers are retained by businesses all the time precisely for that purpose. The system could be and was abused before Encirca lowered the cost and the technical barriers to using the names.

The argument put forth by William9 concerning the warehousing of domains is the only one so far that seems possible to use to end and revoke Encirca's registrations. The fallout is going to make things interesting because I would expect or at least hope that if the registry takes action against Encirca, it will need to clean-up not only the Encirca situation but also every other instance where people are registering names but not within the spirit of the agreement.

Recently it was getting a little boring on the domain boards anyway.

 

[AdoptableDomains]

Recently it was getting a little boring on the domain boards anyway.

It has sparked some friendly debate, hasn't it. :bingo:

I see one of two outcomes:

1. A bunch of speculators brag that the gamble paid off and will soon be rich.
2. Some of the more conservative and skeptical get to say "I told you so" and keep slilghtly more money in their pockets.

I'm going with #2, but then I rarely buy lottery tickets either.

(...Besides that, I have about 10 .aero domains at $99 each coming due for renewal in a couple months. Think about that on the .pros next year.)

 

[Binfus]

I have about 10 .aero domains at $99 each coming due for renewal in a couple months. Think about that on the .pros next year.)

Renewals.....Isn't that the hardest part of domain speculation....every other aspect is pretty much fun.... :blink:

 

[¤.Linchausen.¤]

I dont think .pro was cool at all IMO.

anyway, good luck!

Linchausen:wave:

 

[neocoven]

I registered a few domains from yesterday based on Overture - keyword tool and here is the list of domains still available.

truck.pro 310277 truck
vehicles.pro 45014 vehicle (vehicle is available too)
slot.pro 208792 slot
bonds.pro
cable.pro 150408 cable tv
skiing.pro 208279 skiing

 

[TLDnetworks]

Recently it was getting a little boring on the domain boards anyway.

I'm psyched I got this thing going :kickass: The input has been insightful and very interesting to read. Thank you all for the great discourse! :wave:

Oh yeah, AdoptableDomains, I hope #1 comes true!

 

[William9]

7.1.7 violation of any of the provisions described in Subsections 7.1.1 through 7.1.6 of this Appendix L shall be grounds for termination of the registration, without any refund of fees to the registrant.

I interpret that contractual clause as meaning that Registry pro is not liable for a refund of the fees. The issue of Encirca’s liability in a cancellation is more complicated. Caution, I am not a lawyer.

Registry Pro will act A. quickly, B. slowly, or C. not at all.

A. If Registry Pro acts quickly, I will assert that the cancellation was because of a contractual default on part of Encirca. Consequently, if within 3 months, I will consider an action by my credit card company (charge-back?).

B. If Registry Pro acts slowly, they may be faced with multiple third-party law suits bogging down their merger (in addition to civil actions against Encirca). This is the biggest surge in cash for the registry in history. Both ICANN and the Registry was deluged with phone calls and E-mails about it this week. How could they say they didn’t know or why they took more than 3 months to take action?

C. If Registry Pro does nothing,

Because offering these names to the general public violates the spirit of the purpose of the registry

Violations and spirits, who cares! Even if true, that’s not a reason for cancellation.

Violating “spirit of the purpose” may be impossible to prove anyway. Maybe the poster was referring to my drinking large amounts of spirits and violated ladies while registering .PRO domains at the bar’s computer?

Maybe its not exactly a gamble. It is an action with a probability of a positive cash flow, A. we succeed or are grandfathering, B. domains are cancelled, but we get a return of credit-card funds, or C. we are sc*****.

As I said, I am not a lawyer and I don’t play one on TV. However, I assign a 10% chance of keeping the domains, but they will return over 100 to 1! I assign 15% possibility of getting a charge reversal. There is a 75% chance of loss.

So the present-value of the probable return demands for a spec or two at $49. Renewal cost won’t be an issue. If we keep them, that cost is only 1% of the domain’s value.

 

[TLDnetworks]

IF they cancel the domains, I will be in touch with AMEX Gold regarding the charges and I'm pretty confident they will back me and reverse the charges.

 

[GhostWriter]

amen to amex. i have actually challengened quite a few things through amex and have been successful. american express has the best lawyers around.

 

[William9]

Great, it settled, the absolute only possibilities are:


• Make at least 100 to 1,000 times your investment or

• Amex obtains a refund and apology.



Unfortunately, lawyers may be involved and options 3 (you are S******) is still a possibility.

I hope for the best.