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status-resolved Can you sell LionelMessi.Net on NamePros?

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Is Lionel Messi a common name?

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Chris Hydrick

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Hello nP,

I thought Lionel Messi was a famous soccer player.

I'm in the USA, and although I play FIFA, I don't follow soccer that much. But, even prior to playing FIFA video game, I was aware that Lionel Messi was a famous soccer player.

I wasn't aware that Lionel Messi is a common name, perhaps another countries version of John Smith?

When reporting a recent nP fixed price sale of LionelMessi.Net I was informed:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/lionelmessi-net-only-for-100.1191255/
There appears to be hundreds if not thousands of different people in the world with the name Lionel Messi. The name is not issolated to just one person / no rule violation

upload_2020-5-19_17-34-41.png
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Darth Vader is a common name too. I had over 50 Darth Vader's as friends on fakebook when I used it.
 
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I wasn't aware that Lionel Messi is a common name, perhaps another countries version of John Smith?

When reporting a recent nP fixed price sale of LionelMessi.Net I was informed:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/lionelmessi-net-only-for-100.1191255/
Show attachment 154973

LinkedIn is a good metric of name popularity -

John Smith - About 78,000 results
Lionel Messi - 246 results

I wouldn't really say it is all that common. Just some random name with 246 results on LinkedIn has no value in .NET.

The soccer player is one of the most famous athletes in the world. This registration is clearly targeting the famous person, and would not exist without them. IMO.

Brad
 
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LinkedIn is a good metric of name popularity -

John Smith - About 78,000 results
Lionel Messi - 246 results

Thanks for bringing up Linkedin, supplied with results.

I'm not too sure what the best social media metric is for something like this. I mean, which social media platform has the most amount of real names, with the least amount of fake/duplicate users? I don't imagine that answer to be public information.

And to the point of the mods, there appears to be other Argentines with the first name Lionel and the last name Messi. Though, I highly doubt there are thousands of them. And of the hundreds of Lionel Messi's that exist, how many of them, were named after the soccer player?

Lionel Messi - the student - with a Lionel Messi soccer player picture:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lionel-messi-41b103171/

another student with a Lionel Messi soccer player picture
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lionel-messi-76b940175/

A Lionel Messi test account
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lionel-messi-566125b1/

....

Regards to the 78,000 John Smith's. That would be an interesting study. Deciphering the real John Smiths from the fakes. That seems to be like asking the real slim shady to please stand up.

...

Anyways, I just wanted to open this thread up for conversations.

Apparently, according to this moderated decision, nP is fine with new members coming to namePros, creating a new account, and in their one and only post list LionelMessi.net for sale for Bitcoin.
 
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Hello,

We just re-reviewed this matter and resolved it with the following resolution note:
Listing closed / member notified / Blatant Trademark name of globally known athlete / However, keep in mind that going down the road of not allowing first/last name domain assets, where more than one (Most times multiple) people share the same name, it could lead to no names at all being allowed anymore, for consistency and fairness. Especially when a listing makes no direct reference to a particular person with the same name

Note: If the listing had refereed to Soccer or the Athlete in the listing, it would have been considered a blatant trademark listing in the first report review, however, that wasn't the case in this matter.

Examples:
  • Blatant Trademark Violation: Microsoft.whatever - (A made up brand name known globally that is not a dictionary word)
  • Questionable Trademark Violation: AmazonInsects.whatever - (Dictionary word that is also a GEO location and a company brand - There are insects in the Amazon forest and toy insects sold in the Amazon marketplace. It comes down to how the listing is referencing the term in order to determine if it violates a rule.)
  • Questionable Trademark Violation: - Apple.whatever - (This is a popular dictionary word, fruit, and a brand name - It comes down to how the listing is worded and referenced in order to determine if it violates a rule.)
  • Questionable Trademark Violation: - First+Last name.whatever - (With so many people sharing the same first and last names all over the world, even if only 2, 5 or 10 (Most are hunderds if not thousands), the name is no longer unique and each first+last name individual with a legal government birth certificate and identification document has a right to use said domain with their exact name in it. It's hard to enforce first+last name domain assets because of that. Basically, you are stating that 5, 10, 50, 100, potentially 1000+ people are not allowed to purchase their own name domain because one famous person whom they are not related to has more press and marketing exposure than they do, rendering their first+last name unclaimable by anyone else except that one person.)
At the end of the day, we can certainly understand the concern of selling famous first+last domain names, however, if the seller is not referencing anything that relates the domain to a specific person, there is no way for us to determine intentional unethical business practices. Especially when there are several other people in the world with the same first+last name.

If at any time, a seller mentions/references a specific person, brand, product, etc. that would be considered blatant (Globally known). that leaves no question as to their intent, a moderator can immediately get more involved. Without reference, it becomes a gray area, in which enforcement is a two way street and can go either way.

You are more than welcome to request another moderator team to give their opinion on this matter and if the two opinions are different, we can forward the matter to management for additional review so that a new policy can be created that all moderator teams must follow moving forward when questionable first+last names are listed again.

Just keep in mind, once you start barring some first+last names multiple people have on their birth certificates from being listed, it could domino, eventually, into all first+last names from being listed in the future. So think about where such a new policy could take the industry, first.

We hope that helps clarify this moderator teams stance when reviewing such listings.
 
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At the end of the day, we can certainly understand the concern of selling famous first+last domain names, however, if the seller is not referencing anything that relates the domain to a specific person, there is no way for us to determine intentional unethical business practices. Especially when there are several other people in the world with the same first+last name.

If at any time, a seller mentions/references a specific person, brand, product, etc. that would be considered blatant (Globally known). that leaves no question as to their intent, a moderator can immediately get more involved. Without reference, it becomes a gray area, in which enforcement is a two way street and can go either way.

You are more than welcome to request another moderator team to give their opinion on this matter and if the two opinions are different, we can forward the matter to management for additional review so that a new policy can be created that all moderator teams must follow moving forward when questionable first+last names are listed again.

Just keep in mind, once you start barring some first+last names multiple people have on their birth certificates from being listed, it could domino, eventually, into all first+last names from being listed in the future. So think about where such a new policy could take the industry, first.

We hope that helps clarify this moderator teams stance when reviewing such listings.

This is the classic slippery slope line of reasoning. The truth is everything is a slippery slope.
There still needs to be a reasonable line.

The line to me is "would this domain exist without the famous person". I think the answer here is clearly no. Some random name with a few hundred people is not going to have resale value in .NET.

Brad
 
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Thanks for bringing up Linkedin, supplied with results.

I'm not too sure what the best social media metric is for something like this. I mean, which social media platform has the most amount of real names, with the least amount of fake/duplicate users? I don't imagine that answer to be public information.

It is a metric that shows objectively there are a lot more John Smith in the world than Lionel Messi.

There are plenty of other tools that show name popularity. For instance on How Many of Me -

There are 47,958 people in the U.S. named John Smith.

That is just US results. It is likely a popular name in many other places as well like Canada, England, etc.

Brad
 
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Zooming out a bit to see how: namePros + Lionel Messi : showed.

See the below Google search results for: namepros lionel messi

upload_2020-5-20_16-46-44.png


The namePros thread referenced in the google search Soccer Star Lionel Messi Files UDRP Seeking Control of 2 Domains Including Messi.com was in reference to a 2015 TheDomains.com article.

The Soccer Star Lionel Messi, who may regard to be the best Soccer player in the world, has Filed UDRP Seeking Control of two Domain names Messi.com and Lionelmessi.com

The UDRP was filed by the soccer star whose full name is Lionel Andres Messi Cuccittini.

Messi.com has been owned under privacy since January but privacy was lifted to once the UDRP was filed and the domain name is owned by Lewis Jumpp of the UK.

Prior to January of this year, domain investor Andy Booth of the UK, has owned the domain since about August 23, 2008
 
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This is the classic slippery slope line of reasoning. The truth is everything is a slippery slope.
There still needs to be a reasonable line.

The line to me is "would this domain exist without the famous person". I think the answer here is clearly no. Some random name with a few hundred people is not going to have resale value in .NET.

Brad

Agree, but then there has to be one rule as there are many names here that could be potential trademarks. Some blatant trademarks, Namepros needs to find a way to review them equally and remove all of them. If people are reporting each one they have to be consistent.
 
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We have to allow for gray areas, and decisions based on a per/domain and blatant infringement basis, not on the basis of whether or not given first names and surnames name are "famous". Imagine applying that logic to generic dictionary words?

Frankly, I am surprised something like this got reported by a fellow domainer, and now even more surprised by the re-visit and ultimate decision to close the listing.

Part of domaining is capitalizing on the opportunities presented to us by persons, places or things that have or are to potentially become well-known, isn't this one of the fundamental basis of investing? The sole ownership of a generic domain name and in turn offering the name for sale in and of itself is not infringement. Or is it??

A famous brand built around a domain name, where the TLD is actually part of the business name or the domain name has been hand-crafted (eg. a made-up word), is a different scenario. This is not the case here.

Lionel Messi the famous soccer player is Lionel Messi the famous soccer player.

LionelMessi.net is not the famous soccer player, it is a domain name.

Nissan the famous auto company is Nissan the famous auto company.

Nissan.com is not the famous auto company, it is a domain name.
 
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Frankly, I am surprised something like this got reported by a fellow domainer, and now even more surprised by the re-visit and ultimate decision to close the listing.
These decisions are made on a case-by-case basis and depend on many factors. We, the moderators, decided it was allowed in this case, but we were asked by management to review it again, and that second review resulted in reversing the prior decision. That's rare, but that's what happened this time.

Generally, unless a trademark is famous globally and we believe the domain was registered in bad faith, then we are not going to get involved. Trademark holders can contact us or contact the member if they have concerns or want to file a dispute.
 
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