question Why are hundreds of thousands of Quality Domain's not sold?

[ThatNameGuy]

I've been at the domain game now about two years, and while that's given me time to accumulate about a thousand quality domains (told by NP brothers and sisters), the sell through rate is absolutely deplorable.

A lot of domainers like to compare the domain industry to the real estate industry, but there's no comparison imho. Why do you think the real estate industry, the insurance industry, the automobile industry, the financial services industry spend Billions (not millions) of dollars every year to sell their products/services?

It's pretty obvious that even quality domains don't sell themselves, thus if you're going to make it in this business you better learn how to market/sell your own domains or find someone who can.

The days of only "inbound" marketing doesn't work for most domainers, and it never will. Not having an "outbound" strategy is a lot like not having an offensive strategy in team sports. Can you imagine relying on your defense to score all your goals/points?

The point of this thread......there has to be a better way? and just like I know I have a portfolio consisting of quality domains, I know there's a better way to sell domains. I started a thread a few day ago based on the following Podcast; https://domainnamewire.com/2020/01/13/saw-com-dnw-podcast-268/ but few NP members noticed it However, one key and influential member Rob Monster of Epik noticed it immediately. The thread had everything to do with "outbound" strategy recognized by the founders of Saw.com when they referred to "Smiling and Dialing" and "Dialing for Dollars" as keys for their success.

I've reached out to help the founders of Saw.com, but apparently they don't need my help, or somehow they feel threatened by me...that's their choice. NP members, help me help them by sharing your thoughts It's time we went on OFFENSE!

 

[Bob Hawkes]

As Verisign so aptly pointed out, all brokers in this business are "hoarders" and "scalpers", and as such you and I "aid and abet" the process.

Just as a point of accuracy, there is no mention at all of domain brokers in the Verisign post you cite. They never once mention brokers. Now I realize that you may mean the term broker more broadly than it is normally used.

There is also no mention of the aftermarket being inefficient or broken as you claim. In fact they say the opposite, that those engaged in it are too profitable.

"Domain speculation, or “domain scalping,” as some call it, has become a highly profitable industry unto itself"​

Their central argument is that it is improper to cap the .com prices at registry, when the registrar prices and the whole domain aftermarket are unregulated.

Here is the context for the hiding in plain sight comment.

"But there is also an unregulated secondary market – led by domain speculators – hiding in plain sight. There, some speculators buy domain names at regulated low prices, then sell them at a far higher price. This secondary market is as old as the domain name system itself."​

They argue that the entire domain aftermarket adds nothing to the use of domain names. It is a point that I, and many others, have refuted, but the following is exactly what she said.

"Flipping domain names or warehousing them to create scarcity adds nothing to the industry and merely allows those engaged in this questionable practice to enrich themselves at the expense of consumers and businesses."​

Note that the terms hoarder and scalper do not appear in the Verisgn blog post, although the word scalping appears a single time that I quote above, and hoarding is possibly implied by this quote about creating scarcity.

I find that the misquoting of Verisign's blog post does not contribute to the supposed goal of your thread to find more efficient ways to sell domain names to end users. In Verisign's view, at least if represented by that blog post, there should be no domain investors or aftermarket, as they add nothing. But if you must mention the Verisign blog post, please quote what they actually say. Thank you.

i am providing the links to the full Verisign blog post and also my critique of the post for those who wish to explore.

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Just as a point of accuracy, there is no mention at all of domain brokers in the Verisign post you cite. They never once mention brokers. Now I realize that you may mean the term broker more broadly than it is normally used.

There is also no mention of the aftermarket being inefficient or broken as you claim. In fact they say the opposite, that those engaged in it are too profitable.

"Domain speculation, or “domain scalping,” as some call it, has become a highly profitable industry unto itself"​

Their central argument is that it is improper to cap the .com prices at registry, when the registrar prices and the whole domain aftermarket are unregulated.

Here is the context for the hiding in plain sight comment.

"But there is also an unregulated secondary market – led by domain speculators – hiding in plain sight. There, some speculators buy domain names at regulated low prices, then sell them at a far higher price. This secondary market is as old as the domain name system itself."​

They argue that the entire domain aftermarket adds nothing to the use of domain names. It is a point that I, and many others, have refuted, but the following is exactly what she said.

"Flipping domain names or warehousing them to create scarcity adds nothing to the industry and merely allows those engaged in this questionable practice to enrich themselves at the expense of consumers and businesses."​

Note that the terms hoarder and scalper do not appear in the Verisgn blog post, although the word scalping appears a single time that I quote above, and hoarding is possibly implied by this quote about creating scarcity.

I find that the misquoting of Verisign's blog post does not contribute to the supposed goal of your thread to find more efficient ways to sell domain names to end users. In Verisign's view, at least if represented by that blog post, there should be no domain investors or aftermarket, as they add nothing. But if you must mention the Verisign blog post, please quote what they actually say. Thank you.

i am providing the links to the full Verisign blog post and also my critique of the post for those who wish to explore.

Bob

Bob...i don't have time to address everything you said, but are you saying the likes of HugeDomains, TurnCommerce, Uniregistry, Sedo, Afternic etc. aren't brokers??? If you and I can't agree on that, there isn't much else we can agree on beyond that....i'm just saying.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Bob...i don't have time to address everything you said, but are you saying the likes of HugeDomains, TurnCommerce, Uniregistry, Sedo, Afternic etc. aren't brokers??? If you and I can't agree on that, there isn't much else we can agree on beyond that....i'm just saying.

Sedo and Afternic I would say are primarily domain marketplaces where people come to buy and sell domain nsmes. Uniregistry a bit more complex. All three have domain agents and when someone hires them to buy a domain name that could be considered a buy broker. When they deal directly with a client completing a deal they also can be sell brokers.

As I understand it HugeDomains and TurnCommerce hold and market large domain portfolios of their own names so I would not call them brokers.

I think most take a domain broker to mean a person who will try to sell (or buy) a domain for you. @EJS publishes a list of domain brokers from time to time on Domain Investing blog.

So at times some at the marketplaces do act as brokers, I agree.

In any case the term broker is never used in Verisign article. They do talk extensively of those who hold and market their own large portfolios.

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Sedo and Afternic I would say are primarily domain marketplaces where people come to buy and sell domain nsmes. Uniregistry a bit more complex. All three have domain agents and when someone hires them to buy a domain name that could be considered a buy broker. When they deal directly with a client completing a deal they also can be sell brokers.

As I understand it HugeDomains and TurnCommerce hold and market large domain portfolios of their own names so I would not call them brokers.

I think most take a domain broker to mean a person who will try to sell (or buy) a domain for you. @EJS publishes a list of domain brokers from time to time on Domain Investing blog.

So at times some at the marketplaces do act as brokers, I agree.

In any case the term broker is never used in Verisign article. They do talk extensively of those who hold and market their own large portfolios.

Bob

Bob...the main point I want to make here is that I can hand register two word business domain names day in and day out for $10 each, the like's of which Uni, Dan, Sedo, Afternic, HugeDomains etc. are asking thousands of dollars for. You've heard me say I don't register a domain that I would't use for my own business, and regardless whether anyone believes me, I've started and NAMED dozens of businesses since college in 1970.

I can envision a domain brokerage that owns maybe 10,000 of it's own domains covering a variety of industries from real estate to building and contracting, to finance, to healthcare, to restaurant and food service that might even offer domains for free "if" the buyer pays the shipping (cost of transferring name etc.) and maybe pays additional, "if" it's still in use a year later. Does that make sense Bob? Does it seem fair? If we don't have a domain that the buyer likes or wants, the plan would be to help him/her find or create a domain for no more than a thousand dollars or $50 a month for 24 months. I also envision a brokerage that sells domains for other domainers where their names are sold to buyers who contract with the brokerage for a fee/commission.

Bottom line, this is a plan/model for what Verisign and I see as an alternative for an industry that is breaking down just like "traditional golf" is breaking down around the world.

 

[Joe N]

I also envision a brokerage that sells domains for other domainers where their names are sold to buyers who contract with the brokerage for a fee/commission.

I might be misunderstanding, but there are already many companies that offer this service. Media Options, Starfire Holdings, and Buckley Media are examples.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I might be misunderstanding, but there are already many companies that offer this service. Media Options, Starfire Holdings, and Buckley Media are examples.

That's "only" a part of the brokerage that I envision. Do any of these brokerages sell domains for a very reasonable cost/fee? Do any of them give them away and only charge for "shipping" and allow them to pay later? Are you aware that many business models today that utilize APP's etc. are "free", and they make their money via other means? I'm a 72 year young visionary Joe, and I see the world differently, and especially the domain industry

 

[Joe N]

That's "only" a part of the brokerage that I envision. Do any of these brokerages sell domains for a very reasonable cost/fee? Do any of them give them away and only charge for "shipping" and allow them to pay later? Are you aware that many business models today that utilize APP's etc. are "free", and they make their money via other means? I'm a 72 year young visionary Joe, and I see the world differently, and especially the domain industry

Okay, so you're proposing a discount brokerage of sorts. You've mentioned this idea before. The existence of a few brokerages like that could certainly help to improve domain name sales rates a bit, since it would combine the expertise and connections of a seasoned domain broker with lower cost names. I suspect part of the reason this hasn't been employed (and I believe this has been mentioned before as well) is that it might be challenging to develop a business model that would allow for such a brokerage to maintain enough profit to make the venture worthwhile. It would be interesting to explore further, though.

The apps you're talking about are known as Freemium apps (e.g. Candy Crush, Angry Birds, etc). Definitely a very successful model for those app developers who hit on a game that takes off! They actually do make their money via the app itself by getting people hooked on the addictive nature of the game play and then forcing them to spend money to acquire advantages that don't limit them in now much (or how effectively) they're able to play. It's a brilliant model.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Okay, so you're proposing a discount brokerage of sorts. You've mentioned this idea before. The existence of a few brokerages like that could certainly help to improve domain name sales rates a bit, since it would combine the expertise and connections of a seasoned domain broker with lower cost names. I suspect part of the reason this hasn't been employed (and I believe this has been mentioned before as well) is that it might be challenging to develop a business model that would allow for such a brokerage to maintain enough profit to make the venture worthwhile. It would be interesting to explore further, though.

The apps you're talking about are known as Freemium apps (e.g. Candy Crush, Angry Birds, etc). Definitely a very successful model for those app developers who hit on a game that takes off! They actually do make their money via the app itself by getting people hooked on the addictive nature of the game play and then forcing them to spend money to acquire advantages that don't limit them in now much (or how effectively) they're able to play. It's a brilliant model.

When you're your "cost of goods sold" is only $8.50 per unit, and you can buy names like ShipwreckCasino.com, ReBrandCorp.com, EpicTrump.com, LibsForLife.com, StealthLegal.com, Yum21.com, Welcome757.com and MakeSmilesHappen.com all day long, if you can't figure how to profit from that business model you really should go back to sleep

 

[Joe N]

When you're your "cost of goods sold" is only $8.50 per unit, and you can buy names like ShipwreckCasino.com, ReBrandCorp.com, EpicTrump.com, LibsForLife.com, StealthLegal.com, Yum21.com, Welcome757.com and MakeSmilesHappen.com all day long, if you can't figure how to profit from that business model you really should go back to sleep

I think the biggest factors aren't so much the cost of acquisition, but the expected rate of return and the required time investment needed to achieve it.

I believe the time investment to sell a five figure name is similar to what's needed to sell a three figure name. If that's the case, then the best way to make the model profitable would be to make the sales and marketing process a lot more efficient for lower cost names.

I wonder how that could be done?

 

[hookbox]

When you're your "cost of goods sold" is only $8.50 per unit, and you can buy names like ShipwreckCasino.com, ReBrandCorp.com, EpicTrump.com, LibsForLife.com, StealthLegal.com, Yum21.com, Welcome757.com and MakeSmilesHappen.com all day long, if you can't figure how to profit from that business model you really should go back to sleep

Instead of saying all of those names are terrible can you give us the sales pitch that you would give a customer as to why those names are great. I am just trying to understand your mindset.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Instead of saying all of those names are terrible can you give us the sales pitch that you would give a customer as to why those names are great. I am just trying to understand your mindset.

hookbox...are you a businessperson? Have you ever been in business for yourself? Have you ever started a business? More than one? Sure all those name are terrible, lmao You send me a DM, tell me your background, and I might share some of my mindset? Deal?

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I think the biggest factors aren't so much the cost of acquisition, but the expected rate of return and the required time investment needed to achieve it.

I believe the time investment to sell a five figure name is similar to what's needed to sell a three figure name. If that's the case, then the best way to make the model profitable would be to make the sales and marketing process a lot more efficient for lower cost names.

I wonder how that could be done?

Imagination, Creativity and Determination brother...there a lots of books written about it. Suggest you read some....Oh, and Common Sense

 

[hookbox]

hookbox...are you a businessperson? Have you ever been in business for yourself? Have you ever started a business? More than one? Sure all those name are terrible, lmao You send me a DM, tell me your background, and I might share some of my mindset? Deal?

People start businesses all the time but that doesn't mean they are good at naming them.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I can envision a domain brokerage that owns maybe 10,000 of it's own domains covering a variety of industries from real estate to building and contracting, to finance, to healthcare, to restaurant and food service that might even offer domains for free "if" the buyer pays the shipping (cost of transferring name etc.) and maybe pays additional, "if" it's still in use a year later. Does that make sense Bob? Does it seem fair? If we don't have a domain that the buyer likes or wants, the plan would be to help him/her find or create a domain for no more than a thousand dollars or $50 a month for 24 months.

I agree that it is a model that could possibly work. In many types of service they offer a free introductory period - like 3 months of free music subscription service or almost free online newspaper subscriptions for first year. In a way the registries that make the first year way cheaper than the second are doing that, as are registrars offering first year at a loss which they hope to recoup in additional services.

If I was doing it I would probably after the first year start a payment plan that gradually increased until the payment was done.

I like the idea of, when no acceptable domain was found, that one would be found with some kind of ceiling price.

So yes, it mainly makes sense.

Bob

PS

this is a plan/model for what Verisign and I see as an alternative for an industry that is breaking down

In my opinion, let me say again, you are misinterpreting what the Verisign Blog Post says. Really read it carefully. They are not arguing for a more efficient aftermarket. They throw out figures to claim it is making huge amounts as is (I don't accept those figures). They. instead, are saying we don't need the aftermarket, it adds no value, in their opinion, and simply increases costs to end-users. We never got the second part from them, would be interesting to know the mechanism they would propose to achieve that.

 

[garptrader]

The biggest hurdle to overcome is getting marketers and developers and business people to see a clear advantage of acquiring premium-priced aftermarket domains vs the crappy names they normally go with (spending thousands of $$$ to promote on billboards, tv, radio, social media, etc)

There are probably hundreds of recreational pursuits which consume people's time and money. Those involved are far more passionate about the topic than the average individual. Those outsiders are never going to spend as much money on said topic as the insiders. I.e. exotic sportscars, vacations to certain places others would never consider visiting, attending athletic events with box seats, equestrian competitions, cosmetic surgery, etc.

 

[Joe N]

Imagination, Creativity and Determination brother...there a lots of books written about it. Suggest you read some....Oh, and Common Sense

Good starting points for sure. I was hoping to get into more specifics.

For example: marketplaces like Afternic, Sedo and BrandBucket perform somewhat of a pseudo broker role by combining passive with active. On the passive side: they allow anyone to list domain names on their site at virtually any list price (thus allowing for the lower cost name sales that we're discussing). On the active side: they advertise the marketplace, perform SEO to drive potential buyers to the names listed there, and work with partner registrars to drive customers to the marketplace after attempting to register a specific name.

On the opposite end, typical domain brokers generally sell only higher value names (mid four figures and up), and spend the bulk of their brokering time on direct marketing and targeted lead generation. There are some passive elements as well, but the value of a broker is mainly derived from their expertise and the dedicated time spent trying to sell your names.

It sounds like you're hoping to explore a hybrid of these two models. What elements of the high-valued domain broker work do you think could be refined or eliminated in order to make the model equally as effective when selling lower value names?

 

[Joe N]

Let's see if we can keep the discussion on point without any disparaging personal remarks.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I agree that it is a model that could possibly work. In many types of service they offer a free introductory period - like 3 months of free music subscription service or almost free online newspaper subscriptions for first year. In a way the registries that make the first year way cheaper than the second are doing that, as are registrars offering first year at a loss which they hope to recoup in additional services.

If I was doing it I would probably after the first year start a payment plan that gradually increased until the payment was done.

I like the idea of, when no acceptable domain was found, that one would be found with some kind of ceiling price.

So yes, it mainly makes sense.

Bob

PS

In my opinion, let me say again, you are misinterpreting what the Verisign Blog Post says. Really read it carefully. They are not arguing for a more efficient aftermarket. They throw out figures to claim it is making huge amounts as is (I don't accept those figures). They. instead, are saying we don't need the aftermarket, it adds no value, in their opinion, and simply increases costs to end-users. We never got the second part from them, would be interesting to know the mechanism they would propose to achieve that.

I'm interested in knowing/learning about Part 2 as well. Verisign's headquarters is in Reston Virginia, and having lived and operated businesses in Virginia, and being involved with lobbyists and politics in DC, I intend to find out more about what's "Behind the Curtain" Will it happen tomorrow? Probably not? Will it happen? Probably

In the mean time...9Time™ is getting some BigtimeExposure at the PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando...i'll send you an email about it later, and thanks for your comments.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Let's see if we can keep the discussion on point without any disparaging personal remarks.

What are you referring to brother? Challenging remarks are met with challenging remarks

 

[Joe N]

What are you referring to brother? Challenging remarks are met with challenging remarks

There's a subtle but important difference between challenging a person's opinions/ideas and declaring that they're not smart or skilled at something. I think it's important not to cross that line, in order to keep discussions productive.

 

[oldtimer]

We never got the second part from them, would be interesting to know the mechanism they would propose to achieve that.

The plan might be to eliminate the domainers as middlemen and just charge thousands of dollars for each domain by the registry.

IMO

 

[bmugford]

That's "only" a part of the brokerage that I envision. Do any of these brokerages sell domains for a very reasonable cost/fee?

So your visionary idea is -

Just like a regular broker but selling low value domains.

Brokers value their time. Taking a small cut of a small sale is rarely worth the effort.

That is looking for a miracle worker, not a broker.

Good luck with that.

Brad

 

[MSN-Domains]

So your visionary idea is -

Bulloney to put it nicely

 

[MSN-Domains]

Brokers are not miracle workers. It is hard to create demand where it doesn't naturally exist.
Their time is better used on high quality domains and liquid assets.

Brad

@Bulloney

 

[dncafe]

DAN sucks you in with the low 9% commission and then use your lead to sell their names. Companies like that should be boycotted. Dirtbags!!

I don't understand why there's so much praise for DAN and similar sites on here.

End user buyers are not browsing for domains there, they offer almost zero exposure, and then want a percentage of a sale.

Just use NameSilo. They have free privacy, cheap domain renewals and offer a free For Sale page that handles the entire buying process and only take 7.5%

List your domain for free on Afternic (NameSilo partners with them for auto transfer) so it will show up on GoDaddy and other popular domain registrars and marketplaces.

Popular is the keyword. It doens't matter what marketplace you like, it matters what marketplace the end user likes. Non domainers, the end users who will spend the most for your domains are not on sites like DAN, they are on sites like GoDaddy looking for a domain because they heard about GoDaddy and domains from a super bowl commercial.