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discuss Gun Laws

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Bernard Wright

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This is just a hodgepodge of thoughts. I won't distinguish between good and bad people. I'll focus on peoples' actions.

Bad actors shouldn't have guns for committing acts of violence against innocent people, nor for threatening innocent people with potential violence. It would be nice if society could prevent a bad actor from obtaining the gun used in a bad act.

Good actors should have the right to defend themselves and others against bad actors with necessary force. Such force includes the threat of lethal violence, and the use of lethal violence if necessary.

Bad actors don't have regard for the rule of law when acting in a criminal manner.

Society is comprised of individuals pursuing their own interests. Laws are instated to ensure that individuals' rights are not infringed upon by another person or entity. When an individual infringes upon another individual's rights, there are criminal and civil procedures to deal with such matters, overseen by our governing officials. In extreme cases, when the infringing party is a usurping government, it is up to the citizens to protect their natural freedoms from that government. This happens rarely, but it happens. It is wise for an individual to aspire to maintain his/her own personal sovereignty and ability to protect him/herself from unjust threats.

A good actor is responsible for protecting him/herself and, if desired, other people from threats and acts of violence. When police officers are capable of assisting, assistance is welcomed, but the police's main duty is to maintain law and order, not to protect another individual from immediate threat. The individual's primal concern is his/her own personal safety, and this is a responsibility that lies within every individual when faced with a threat of violence.

A gun is a tool. A gun can do a number of things. Here are three examples.

1. a gun can be used to engage in a violent act.
2. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a violent act.
3. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a threat of violence.

We are all players in society with an interest in pursuing our best interests and defending our well-being. Laws that would take guns away from some bad actors are sure to also result in fewer armed good actors who could deescalate violent and potentially violent situations. Violence is not good. Good actors with guns end violent situations more quickly and effectively than good actors without guns do. There are hundreds of millions of firearms on this planet. A bad actor with the desire to obtain a gun will always have the means to locate a gun. Black markets are real.

Good actors should have the legal right to possess guns in order to protect themselves, and others, from bad actors.
 
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Are you folks aware that 60% of your country favour stricter gun laws?
So you are saying the majority is always right?

Isn't it something that's worth looking into when the majority favour it, and when other countries have seen positive results from stricter gun laws as well?
People are more apt to fear what they don't understand.

Maybe we could try something a little different and just make mandatory gun training and gun safety a requirement for all US citizens and residents. That could go a long way in reducing peoples fear level. I know every time I've been with a newbie shooter, they've walked away with a better understanding and respect for guns. Most seemed less fearful of them. Some even openly admitted they'd like to shoot again. This encompasses both males and females. (Disclaimer - This is a very limited number of people who were already "gun curious" and reached out to learn more about guns and shooting.)

By the way, you might want to research the rate of compliance under New Zealand's new laws.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/30/new-zealand-struggles-to-enforce-gun-control-law/
(It's surprising to see this kind of honest, straight forward reporting in what is considered a liberal California MSM newspaper.)
 
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So you are saying the majority is always right?
I'm saying that if the majority share a wish for a change in policy, the government should take all reasonable measures to determine if the change should be made.

Maybe we could try something a little different and just make mandatory gun training and gun safety a requirement for all US citizens and residents. That could go a long way in reducing peoples fear level. I know every time I've been with a newbie shooter, they've walked away with a better understanding and respect for guns. Most seemed less fearful of them. Some even openly admitted they'd like to shoot again. This encompasses both males and females. (Disclaimer - This is a very limited number of people who were "gun curious" as they were the ones that reached out to learn about guns.)
Absolutely! That would be a fantastic step, along with more stringent background checks that could involve psychological testing. Those are the kinds of compromises that everyone should be open to at least considering.

The New Zealand article is interesting, but it's far too early to throw the baby out with the bath water there. It's only been 6 months. These kinds of changes take years and years to be able to measure real impact and success.
 
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Of course. Every single element we experience is a consequence of the laws, demographics, economics, etc. of our country. The laws play a vital role. This is why we cannot tinker with them at our whim. We must do so only as it is right to do so.

Again, I am open minded. Put forward a convincing argument as to why it right to change the gun laws.
I respect your right to an opinion, Bernard, but I'm finding you're too circular in your arguments and too rooted in your beliefs to have a proper discussion with.
 
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I’ve been thinking about this. The optimal solution, to me, involves increased rates of responsible gun ownership. I would be all for mandatory gun training. Psychological testing is a maybe, for me. It would depend as to what diagnoses would disqualify a potential gun owner. It might work if properly executed though.
 
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I’m just asking for logic Joe.
 
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You called it. Laws establish a baseline. As of now, guns are just a second amendment right which is ridiculous. Sure, you needed guns back then when the amendment was established. In today’s time it’s a different ballgame.

So, why is it far fetched to make the baseline...no guns?! We’ve tried guns and scores of people can be killed in seconds. Why the fear to try no guns? I’ll tell you exactly why. The NRA buys politicians and people are afraid to be proven wrong when less guns yield less death.

Two questions.

1. Today it is a "different ballgame". What do you mean, specifically?
2. How do you define "try no guns"?
 
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...I would be all for mandatory gun training. Psychological testing is a maybe, for me...
One concern with requiring mandatory training or psychological training is who will bear the cost of this.

If you require that the individual pay for it, then you create a class system that might prevent those of limited financial means from being able to pay for it. As such they are no longer free (able) to excercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
 
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One concern with requiring mandatory training or psychological training is who will bare the cost of this.

If you require that the individual pay for it, then you create a class system that might prevent those of limited financial means from being able to pay for it. As such they are no longer free (able) to excercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

Indeed. I meant to imply that the mandatory training would be administered to all residents, as you had stated in your post above. The taxpayer would bear the cost. It wouldn't be popular in most blue states, I'd imagine. But I believe it would be a potential step in the right direction for the nation.

On that note, it might not garner much favor in red states either. But it is something to ponder.
 
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One concern with requiring mandatory training or psychological training is who will bear the cost of this.

If you require that the individual pay for it, then you create a class system that might prevent those of limited financial means from being able to pay for it. As such they are no longer free (able) to excercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
Maybe start putting some of those NRA contributions to good work. :)
 
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Maybe start putting some of those NRA contributions to good work. :)
I'd rather put it towards ammo and range time. LOL... I'm selfish that way. :xf.wink:
 
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It's nice to see that Trump is at least talking about making some real changes to the accessibility of firearms. I remain skeptical as to whether or not anything will come of it, but it's a positive start for sure.

I don't much like the idea of teachers carrying weapons in schools, though. If it were my kids' school, I'd definitely have something to say about it. And it seems like any bill that's passed has a decent chance of including this requirement.
 
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Two questions.

1. Today it is a "different ballgame". What do you mean, specifically?
2. How do you define "try no guns"?
I mean, when the 2nd amendment was established you hand packed one shot at a time. Back then they couldn’t have and didn’t imagine the kinds of weapons that technology would create. Then and now are completely different worlds. It’s time for people to stop hiding behind archaic laws and get with the times.

“Try no guns” - take as many guns as humanly possible out of society. If I have a drinking problem I remove booze. It’s not the fault of the booze that I drink but removing the substance from the equation is a benefit to me. Guns are the same. People have proven that very bad things happen where guns are involved. Suicide, kids accidentally killing themselves, mass shootings...

People like cocaine, fact. They buy billions of dollars worth a year but we have a law that says it’s illegal. We have agencies that devote decades to removing as much as possible out of society and we go from there. Imaging if we said, meh, people want it so let it be a free for all. It’s ok if you leave it on the table and a few kids OD now and then. That sounds ridiculous right?!
 
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Rather than decipher all that, what is the main question? If a house is on fire, you don’t distinguish it with gas.

The NRA and gun nuts seem to think that more guns are a solution. When something kills people, the idea is to eliminate it, not add more into the mix.
Sorry, if you want to be part of this discussion but are unwilling or too lazy to make the effort to "decipher" what I wrote, then I have no interest in listening to your input.
 
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Sorry, if you want to be part of this discussion but are unwilling or too lazy to make the effort to "decipher" what I wrote, then I have no interest in listening to your input.
You asked me to answer a question but we’re to lazy to ask it. I’m not interested in copy and paste with paragraphs of chatter.
 
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I have no real opinion either way on this (I'm English so can't talk from any real experience) but would the answer lies in statistics? How many times has someone (general public not law enforcement or army) owning a gun saved a life as opposed to ending a life? How many of these mass shootings have been cut short or ended by a civilian having a gun? If the lives saved is greater than the lives taken then maybe its worth owning guns, if not than maybe it isn't. How many people get killed with their own guns?
 
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I mean, when the 2nd amendment was established you hand packed one shot at a time. Back then they couldn’t have and didn’t imagine the kinds of weapons that technology would create. Then and now are completely different worlds. It’s time for people to stop hiding behind archaic laws and get with the times.

“Try no guns” - take as many guns as humanly possible out of society. If I have a drinking problem I remove booze. It’s not the fault of the booze that I drink but removing the substance from the equation is a benefit to me. Guns are the same. People have proven that very bad things happen where guns are involved. Suicide, kids accidentally killing themselves, mass shootings...

People like cocaine, fact. They buy billions of dollars worth a year but we have a law that says it’s illegal. We have agencies that devote decades to removing as much as possible out of society and we go from there. Imaging if we said, meh, people want it so let it be a free for all. It’s ok if you leave it on the table and a few kids OD now and then. That sounds ridiculous right?!

Indeed guns have become more advanced since the 1700s. This means that those who would commit violent acts with guns can create much more havoc than they could have back in the 1700s. And if not faced with opposition at the time of their crime, they will very likely carry out such attacks to their fullest potential. This is why such criminals must be met with opposition.

I think you're confusing guns with criminals. It is the criminal behind the gun that must be stopped. And a criminal with a gun can, in most cases, be stopped only by commensurate force.

Regarding taking guns out of society, how do you propose we remove 400 million firearms from gun owners in the US?
 
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I have no real opinion either way on this (I'm English so can't talk from any real experience) but would the answer lies in statistics? How many times has someone (general public not law enforcement or army) owning a gun saved a life as opposed to ending a life? How many of these mass shootings have been cut short or ended by a civilian having a gun? If the lives saved is greater than the lives taken then maybe its worth owning guns, if not than maybe it isn't. How many people get killed with their own guns?

Lets assume that the number of lives saved is fewer than the number of lives taken. ...because I assume you mean to say the assailant might be killed in the conflict which is a net positive that still results in a life taken.

Given this, what should be done to decrease the number of violent acts with guns?
 
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I think you're confusion guns with criminals.

Regarding taking guns out of society, how do you propose we remove 400 million firearms from gun owners in the US?
No confusion.

Criminals break the rules. Is it your position that there should be no law because criminals exist?
 
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Lets assume that the number of lives saved is fewer than the number of lives taken. ...because I assume you mean to say the assailant might be killed in the conflict which is a net positive that still results in a life taken.

Given this, what should be done to decrease the number of violent acts with guns?
No question, the number of lives taken is far greater than the couple saved.

Given this, take guns away. Nobody needs a gun in todays society unless they’re hunting to survive. In that case exceptions can be made.
 
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No confusion.

Criminals break the rules. Is it your position that there should be no law because criminals exist?

My position is that criminals are not affected by laws. Only law-abiding people are affected by laws. And it is the behavior of criminals that we are discussing. The problem is violent criminal behavior. And my question to you is, by what means will curbing the gun ownership among law-abiding citizens have a positive impact on decreasing violent crime?
 
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No question, the number of lives taken is far greater than the couple saved.

Given this, take guns away. Nobody needs a gun in todays society unless they’re hunting to survive. In that case exceptions can be made.

I don't think you've entirely thought-through the impact a blanket gun confiscation would have on decreasing violent acts in the US.
 
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My position is that criminals are not affected by laws. Only law-abiding people are affected by laws. And it is the behavior of criminals that we are discussing. The problem is violent criminal behavior. And my question to you is, by what means will curbing the gun ownership among law-abiding citizens have a positive impact on decreasing violent crime?
So your position is that laws shouldn’t exist. After all, criminals are criminals because they disregard law. This is the problem.

We do not need law for good people. The exact reason we have law is because bad people, aka criminals, take advantage of society.

I’m a law abiding citizen. Should rape be legal because I won’t do it? Should cocaine be legal even though you know better but your child might not? Point is, we establish laws because of those that are bad, not good.
 
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I don't think you've entirely thought-through the impact a blanket gun confiscation would have on decreasing violent acts in the US.
How would it hurt?

Lives saved because someone intervened with a gun is almost zero, as compared with lives lost.
 
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