US Military thoughts...

[ZuraX]

I have been really thinking about this a lot the last few years.

I think the USA should change to something like China has. I think everyone shoudl have to join the military from the age of 18(or as soon as they leave high school) until they are 21.

Why? Because look at the state of our kids now-a-days.. Joining the military would help set them straight. No more young adults out joining gangs, doing drugs, doing crimes, etc. I would change it one way though, if you were to get into the medical(doctor) or science field you would be allowed to not join.

 

[HHDomains]

You obviously just don't get it so I won't bother debating it with you.
If you don't see the value in a better and stronger and more disciplined population then I have no more to discuss with you.

 

[Iravan]

Again this is why most of us are born with parents or gaurdians to instill discipline into us. Not all kids are bad. Not every kid in the U.S. needs more discipline to make them a better person than they already are.

Exactly my points, if parenting is done well, and a proper set of values are instilled into the Child, then there is less likely to be problems in the future. Imagine the cost, to put into place this conscription. Also do we really need more people capable of fighting... Look at the wars that wrack our world today...

You obviously just don't get it so I won't bother debating it with you.
If you don't see the value in a better and stronger and more disciplined population then I have no more to discuss with you.

No Offense but this is a Major problem, people are unwilling to listen, to see the other side. That is wrong... You should always consider what the others are saying, especially if they are the youth. Because the youth are the future.

 

[HHDomains]

Because the youth are the future.

And that is why I hold my position. A better youth means a better future.

 

[Humdizzy]

You obviously just don't get it so I won't bother debating it with you.
If you don't see the value in a better and stronger and more disciplined population then I have no more to discuss with you.

There are already people whose goal it is to go through military training. I know plenty of them in my high school and one happens to be a very close friend. Let those few people be the ones to go serve our country and come back with military discipline as they please . I just don't think we all need military discipline or we'll have one stuck-up/extremely serious population. I think my parents do a good enough job of disciplining me thank you very much.

 

[CrazyTech]

It's not the job of the government to teach and/or discipline kids - period.

First off, the educational system in America is different from that of Germany, China, or any of the other (few) countries practicing conscription. Personally speaking, I wouldn't be able to do what others can when it comes to going to school full time and training for the military on either the weekends or fitting it into my schedule. I currently go to college and work a 15 hour job at the statehouse and that's enough for my plate right now. I don't doubt my grades would suffer in my own personal case and I'm sure that I'm not alone. We already have a problem with education here in America. The other option is to delay x years of my life (either pre or post college) and I think this could potentially do harm because not everyone works the same way. Some people can handle it, others may not.

My second point is to look at the countries that do it. Greece is considering cutting service time down to 6 months (has already been cut I believe previously down to a year) and even removing it altogether. Germany is also considering reformation including possible removal of the system. Israel does it out of pure necessity. We have a system in place if it were ever needed wartime and I don't see a need for it otherwise right now.

All of these countries also lack the ethnic melting pot that Canada and the US share. It's an entirely different environment and I'm not quite so sure mandatory military service would do the trick. If anything, you're now training gang members with even better skill given the fact that many gang members start at a younger age and unless you're up for mandatory service of teenagers you're just training gang members and making them better at killing ultimately IMHO.

I think the USA should change to something like China has.

And we all know what a model nation China is, right?

 

[photoshopfreak]

Forcing people to do something they don't want to do will most likey make them dislike their country... It would me & i hate the idea of a nanny state/country...

Drafting people to benefit the country in war time, like the world war(s) is fine though, every person living in a country should fight for their country when that country is in need, but otherwise no, it should be left to the people who choose to do so...

 

[ZuraX]

My Opinions on this

First I am really quite disgusted by this generalization of the youth as being the perpatrators. Another thing the primaray market for drugs is not the youth.

I am guessing you dont work in a place that the publc visits all day long.

I have had 15 year olds(customers) sell drugs right infront of me at work. I have seen kids too young to drink come in plastered or even higher than a kite. I have heard young kids talking about pulling guns on others just because someone said something they didnt like or even looked at them in a way they didnt think was right.

How is this then since you dont wish to put your life on hold for 3 years...

After you graduate grade school you get shipped to a military school and trained in fighting/military and they school you. When you graduate there you can then go off to a colledge..

 

[Humdizzy]

I am guessing you dont work in a place that the publc visits all day long.

I have had 15 year olds(customers) sell drugs right infront of me at work. I have seen kids too young to drink come in plastered or even higher than a kite. I have heard young kids talking about pulling guns on others just because someone said something they didnt like or even looked at them in a way they didnt think was right.

Not every kid is like that...

Take moi for example:

- gave up relationships till I'm sucessful and making enough money to raise 3 people.

- never been in a single fight in my lifetime so far

- I have never touched drugs or liquor ever

- Doing great in school.

Again... every kid should not be punished and shipped off to military training because of the bad seeds. What you see at work doesn't show for every kid in the world.

 

[Iravan]

I am guessing you dont work in a place that the publc visits all day long.

I have had 15 year olds(customers) sell drugs right infront of me at work. I have seen kids too young to drink come in plastered or even higher than a kite. I have heard young kids talking about pulling guns on others just because someone said something they didnt like or even looked at them in a way they didnt think was right.

Really? So because of these people who do not in any way represent the youth population you intend to brand them all as illicit drug users. You are generalizing... which is the falling of most people.

I am guessing you dont work in a place that the publc visits all day long.

Actually, I work in a place where I see the drug use by students as being high. These drug users have often personal problems,. or problems at home (divorced parents, ect.)...

Also I would like to share some statistics with you...

Reported drug and alcohol use by high school seniors, 2004

Used within the last:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Drugs 12 months* 30 days

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alcohol 70.6 % 48.0 %
Marijuana 34.3 19.9
Stimulants 10.0 4.6
Other opiates 9.5 4.3
Tranquilizers 7.3 3.1
Sedatives 6.5 2.9
Hallucinogens 6.2 1.9
Cocaine 5.3 2.3
Inhalants 4.2 1.5
Steroids 2.5 1.6
Heroin 0.9 0.5

*Including the last month.
Source: Press release: Overall teen drug use continues gradual decline; but use of inhalants rises, University of Michigan News and Information Services, December 21, 2004. (Acrobat file 457.5KB)


Rates of past year cocaine use by college students have varied over the past 10 years from a low of 2.0% in 1994 to a high of 5.4% in 2003. Past year marijuana use has ranged from a low of 27.9% in 1993 to a high of 35.9% in 1998.

Source: University of Michigan, Monitoring the Future National Survey Results on Drug Use, 1975-2003, Volume II: College Students and Adults Ages 19-45, 2004.(Acrobat file 1.86 MB)


Of high school seniors in 2004 --

45.7% reported having ever used marijuana/hashish
8.1% reported having ever used cocaine
1.5% reported having ever used heroin.
Source: University of Michigan, Monitoring the Future National Results on Adolescent Drug Use: Overview of Key Findings 2004, April 2005. (Acrobat file 538.16KB)

In 2003, 29% of all students in grades 9 through 12 reported someone had offered, sold, or given them an illegal drug on school property. This was an increase from 1993 when 24% of such students reported that illegal drugs were available to them on school property.

-Drug Use has gone up, but the students at school rarely grow their own drugs, it is sold... by adults-

According to data from the 2004 National Household Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) --

110 million Americans age 12 or older (46% of the population) reported illicit drug use at least once in their lifetime
15% reported use of a drug within the past year
8% reported use of a drug within the past month.

So to sum it up. I agree with what your saying the stance on drugs by students these days is wrong. It is becoming too much of a usual thing for students. The problem lies however not in the youth, but in their wrong upbringing, and the adult suppliers of these drugs.

To me, doing drugs is a sin
I have never drunk alcohol in my life yet
I do well in school

Military conscription, right after school would be disastrous because, you do not practice what you've learnt for a period of lets say 3 years. You forget, and life becomes even harder. As stated alto of countries with conscription are slowly getting rid of it unless necessary, I personally do not know any youth who would be for conscription...

Stats taken off here

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/du.htm#youth

 

[zanzan]

If u want smth like this, come to Singapore... Mens above 18 need to join NS [national service] for about 2 years..

 

[brewmonkey]

Not every kid is like that...

Take moi for example:

- gave up relationships till I'm sucessful and making enough money to raise 3 people.

- never been in a single fight in my lifetime so far

- I have never touched drugs or liquor ever

- Doing great in school.

Again... every kid should not be punished and shipped off to military training because of the bad seeds. What you see at work doesn't show for every kid in the world.

You're right, not every kid is like that but those kids are now the exception rather then the norm.

I am the past President and Judge of my counties Teen Court. I spent several years working with that group as well I have been a parent in the classroom when my son was in Public School. Very few of the children that we had interactions with have the skill set to be self disciplined.

Yes, it is the parents job to instill value and discipline but in this day and age you seem to forget that we are seeing more and more single parent homes and for those with two parents you generally find that they are a 2 income household. There is no parent at home to do those tasks, it is left to cable TV and crappy music. Kids are left to their own devices, today's version of the latch key kid.

Many of today's youth are not even close to possessing the discipline or respect of the kids from 30 or 40 years ago. Gone are the days of when you spoke to your elders and addressed them as Sir/Ma'am or Mr./Mrs. Instead you have a 10 year old who wants to call you by your first name and parents who seem to encourage it. While it may seem trivial respect for your elders as well as self respect are the basis of discipline.

I think you also misunderstand that military service is not meant to instill the same kind/type of discipline that one would learn at home, it is all together something very different. The military teaches one self to look within, a so called "Gut Check" when the chips are down. It makes you learn more about yourself and your abilities, way more then you can learn in your brief time at home trust me.

Military service or service to your country can also provide you with more then just the "discipline". Many countries that have compulsary service also have laws that allow veterans who completed their service to go to school for free and here in the U.S. many states have similar laws for veterans and/or those who are in the National Guard. Illinois is one of them that will pay 100% of your tuition and fees if you enlist in their NG. That means if you are prior service and have the GI Bill and College Fund like I did when you go to school with them paying the major portion of it, the kickers you earned will help defray food and housing which means you don't need to work and can concentrate on 100% of your studies. Not a bad deal for 3 years of work.

Many people also do not realize that the US Army no longer requires you to serve a 3,4,5 or 6 year initial enlistment. Depending on the job(MOS) you select they have 15 month contracts.

 

[Zeeble]

What if you are part of the 99% of 18-21 year olds who don't go around smashing things up? What if you don't want to join the army?

It's called choice, we should all have as much freedom as possible as as little government intervention. Then, if someone decideds that they want to join, they can...

 

[brewmonkey]

Military conscription, right after school would be disastrous because, you do not practice what you've learnt for a period of lets say 3 years. You forget, and life becomes even harder. As stated alto of countries with conscription are slowly getting rid of it unless necessary, I personally do not know any youth who would be for conscription...

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. You do not practice what skills?

I joined the military the very day I graduated High School and then spent the next 9 years in the Army before I stepped one foot into a college classroom. I had no problems nor do any of my fellow veterans that took similar paths after HS. Now it is has been close to 10 years since I left the Army and I still recall very well many of the skills I was taught/learned, so to say that you "will forget and life becomes harder" is ridiculous.

 

[Iravan]

You're right, not every kid is like that but those kids are now the exception rather then the norm.

I am the past President and Judge of my counties Teen Court. I spent several years working with that group as well I have been a parent in the classroom when my son was in Public School. Very few of the children that we had interactions with have the skill set to be self disciplined.

Yes, it is the parents job to instill value and discipline but in this day and age you seem to forget that we are seeing more and more single parent homes and for those with two parents you generally find that they are a 2 income household. There is no parent at home to do those tasks, it is left to cable TV and crappy music. Kids are left to their own devices, today's version of the latch key kid.

Many of today's youth are not even close to possessing the discipline or respect of the kids from 30 or 40 years ago. Gone are the days of when you spoke to your elders and addressed them as Sir/Ma'am or Mr./Mrs. Instead you have a 10 year old who wants to call you by your first name and parents who seem to encourage it. While it may seem trivial respect for your elders as well as self respect are the basis of discipline.

100% Accurate IMHO

However, I dont see how your blaming the youth... They did not make societey what it is. The general trend of change happened when the baby boomers became teens. Youth were born into this, not our fault really...

 

[brewmonkey]

What if you are part of the 99% of 18-21 year olds who don't go around smashing things up? What if you don't want to join the army?

It's called choice, we should all have as much freedom as possible as as little government intervention. Then, if someone decideds that they want to join, they can...

That's why I said, "National Service". I totally support other then military conscription as a method of national service. If you do not want to be in the military then you can work for something along the lines of the CCC. It's an idea that has worked before in the U.S. with F.D.R. and the 100 days of the New Deal. The creation of the Civilian Conservation Corps recruited men between 18-25 to work on things such as building roads, dams, parks and other rural projects that were for the betterment of the community.

You would be entitled to the same perks and benefits after service as those who served in the military such as college tuition, VA type home loans (which are KICK ASS!), VGLI and so on.

100% Accurate IMHO

However, I dont see how your blaming the youth... They did not make societey what it is. The general trend of change happened when the baby boomers became teens. Youth were born into this, not our fault really...

I am not blaming youth, I am blaming society.

 

[Zeeble]

What if you are part of the 99% of 18-21 year olds who don't go around smashing things up? What if you don't want to join the army?

It's called choice, we should all have as much freedom as possible as as little government intervention. Then, if someone decideds that they want to join, they can...

 

[Iravan]

I am not blaming youth, I am blaming society.

So Then why Military conscription? If it is not the youths problem, why sned them off to the army. Its too late to make the baby boomers pay, so now we have to get conscripted?

If you look arround the world, places that have not experienced such a large baby boom still retain the trasured respect for elders, and other good qualitys...

 

[Lyte]

I think everyone shoudl have to join the military from the age of 18(or as soon as they leave high school) until they are 21.

I think this is a grand idea! Many countries have required some form of civil service! And you're right, the state of (many) kids these days is really appauling!

Civil service is not the same thing as a draft. At least it's not in my book. :tu:

Lyte

 

[brewmonkey]

So Then why Military conscription? If it is not the youths problem, why sned them off to the army. Its too late to make the baby boomers pay, so now we have to get conscripted?

If you look arround the world, places that have not experienced such a large baby boom still retain the trasured respect for elders, and other good qualitys...

Because I believe every one should serve their country, it's that simple.

My blaming society for our problems with kids today has nothing to do with national service. I do not say you should serve to "get discipline", I was simply answering someone elses questions there.

My thing is that our country does a lot for you, but seriously look around and ask yourself what have you done for it and your fellow man?

 

[Iravan]

Because I believe every one should serve their country, it's that simple.

There are many ways one can sewrve their country, forcing one on them will only bring anger...

My thing is that our country does a lot for you, but seriously look around and ask yourself what have you done for it and your fellow man?

I agree we ought to do something. But does serving in the military really help your country? Does becomign a soldier rally help mankind? You can do more, by doing something you would want to do. Marrie Currie was passionate about physics, she went with her passion and shaped the science of today...

So basically forcing people into serving does not help the country or mankind. When you can inspire someone to serve without force, then it is much better for both parties.