Is hunting wrong??

[ehoez.com]

With all the talk about mike vick and his dogfighting, folks have been talking about is hunting wrong too?

What are your thoughts?

Should hunting be illegal too??

 

[Daniel]

Is it ok to kill animals which do not possess consciousness?


If it turns out that a certain animal species, such as starfish, do not possess consciousness, then from an ethical perspective I believe that this would imply that they fall into the same category as plants.

In some cases, we may wish to refrain from killing such animals for environmental and ecological reasons, just as we may wish to refrain from killing certain plants for these same concerns.

However, I see nothing wrong in principle with killing an animal for food if the animal possesses no more consciousness than does a plant or a brain dead human.

- Vegnews

 

[James]

guess what?
i live on one of the biggest farms in Victoria, Australia, I actually help out and they don't die in pain, they get feed well and treated good. Why else would we have things like cows, sheep?
what about when we get the wool from the sheep? it hurts when you get your head shaved? are you going to stop using blankets with wool because the sheep got hurt?

 

[neroux]

guess what?
i live on one of the biggest farms in Victoria, Australia, I actually help out and they don't die in pain, they get feed well and treated good. Why else would we have things like cows, sheep?

Saying someone who is murdered is being treated well is a bit cynical IMHO, but whatever.

Maybe this place where you are actually treats them well before killing them. The fact remains however, that this isnt the case in most other places.

 

[James]

a animal isn't someone though.
its a animal, a source of food, a pet, source of survival

 

[briman1970]

Yes.

I and billions of other individuals disagree.

I dont know who they are, but your comparison stated one couldnt eat a dog after having killed him and that is not correct.

The point I was making to the OP is that in comparison to hunting, one does not eat their kill after a dogfight. I understand that it's possible.

So you wouldnt agree with my statement that "everyone who loses his life forcibly suffers"?

No, I would not. Animals who are shot accurately during hunting activities are called "clean kills". That means instantaneous death with no suffering and it's what most hunters strive for.

I do not.

Many years ago I was a vegan for three months, then a vegetarian for over two years. I finally realized there was no way to avoid animal products altogether or prevent animal cruelty by simply being a vegetarian. I learned that large scale wheat and soy operations kill millions of animals (rabbits, mice, rats, possoms, etc) annually with farming equipment and pest control methods... rubber vulcanization requires animal fat... etc, etc. Vegetarianism was a hopeless cause for me. Now I seek out humane organic meats whenever possible, including meat from game animals, which IMHO is generally cruelty-free.

The quality of life before the actual killing/murder certainly matters as far as the life is concerned before the killing/murder is commited.

Here we are talking however about the action of killing, whose result is always the same for the victim.

I certainly agree with you that torturing someone before killing him is even worse. But you can hardly use the non-torture fact as pro argument.

YOU are talking about the action of killing. I was comparing a fighting dog's life to the life of a game animal. You originally said, "That doesn't really matter in this case." Now you're saying the quality of life does matter, but we're not talking about that? My point was that the life of a game animal is better than the life of a fighting dog. Prove me wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaching

This hardly deserves a response since it's so ridiculous, but poaching is not what is being compared to dogfighting in this thread. The OP (and I) was speaking of legal hunting and you know it.

Can you please provide a source for that.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm under article VII. The Criminal Link

That might be often (not always) true, but none of both depends on the other, so you have to see it as two different things. A murdered dog does not care whether his torturer is involved into illegal activities. The result is the same for him as for someone being hunted.

Gambling doesn't depend on dogfighting, but dogfighting depends on gambling. Dogfighting rings are not created strictly for their entertainment value.

On your second statement, do you mean the end-result is the same for him as for something being hunted?

Criminal activities do not perpetuate that. Just because you sell drugs, murder or rape someone or commit another crime doesnt make you a supporter of dog fights.

No, but a man who will rob an old lady for money or commit a drive-by shooting would certainly be more apt to bet on a dogfight than you or me. The mindset of denial of the victim and denial of responsibility along with desensitization is what makes criminals able to do what you and I find reprehensible.

Sorry, but I wouldnt rely on a sample of 22 people, especially if many of them have a hunting background.

Fair enough. What source would it have to come from for you to actually believe it?

 

[neroux]

a animal isn't someone though.
its a animal, a source of food, a pet, source of survival

Based on such "arguments" I am not going to continue the discussion. Sorry.

 

[James]

Based on such "arguments" I am not going to continue the discussion. Sorry.

i was about to go to bed but
you know its true, even good old briman1970 backed it up with

No, I would not. Animals who are shot accurately during hunting activities are called "clean kills". That means instantaneous death with no suffering and it's what most hunters strive for.

they don't suffer when they die.
i respect your opinions but when don't see our side of the part it doesn't help.

 

[briman1970]

Based on such "arguments" I am not going to continue the discussion. Sorry.

Aww man... I spent over 30 minutes on my last post and you're just gonna ignore it? :td:

 

[neroux]

Aww man... I spent over 30 minutes on my last post and you're just gonna ignore it? :td:

I noticed it took you a while, but I am really sorry, but after SUCH an unbelievable ignorant/arrogant statement like the one I was referring to I am simply not anymore interested at all in this conversation. Please excuse.

 

[briman1970]

i was about to go to bed but
you know its true, even good old briman1970 backed it up with

they don't suffer when they die.
i respect your opinions but when don't see our side of the part it doesn't help.

Thanks for the comments James, but in support of Neroux, I do have to tell you that things are very different in America when it comes to factory farm raised animals. I did a lot of research on this when I was a vegan and for the most part, factory farm animals are treated VERY poorly here before slaughter. That is exactly why I support hunting... it's nowhere near as cruel.

 

[Jasdon]

You are perfectly right (except for the fact that we are not carnivorous at all, but only omnivorous - mostly vegetables with only some meat),I would say it's the other way round, especially historically but only if you also agree that our society/species is far from civilised, disrespects all other species although it claims this respect and all resources/rights for itself nonetheless and hasnt changed at all since our beginnings.

Then, and only then, you are absolutely right and I would fully agree with you.

Sure, I agree with that statement, we are but animals ourselves

 

[Achaias]

So just curious neroux, do you consider those of us who do partake in omnivorous mastication meat graveyards. From a recent article I read there are those vegans who believe this and won't have sex with one because of that reasoning. Also, do you eat veggies/fruits that were picked off of the tree/bush/etc.. or after they are clearly unattached from their mother plant?

 

[BoutiqueMusic]

I decided to have chicken one day for lunch so I searched for the nearest KFC. The website that came up was www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com. It is doumentation of the cruel and inhumane stuff that goes on at KFC. After seeing that I was still hungry and I even went to KFC.

Listen, meat eaters and anti-meat eaters will never see eye to eye. Meat eaters don't see the problem and vegetarians can't believe that they don't see the problem.

It's not that we don't like animals, we love them; barbecued with a side of vegetables.

 

[briman1970]

It's not that we don't like animals, we love them; barbecued with a side of vegetables.

Why do people have to be ugly. :td:

The problem with the individuals who run the meat packing industry is that they have no honor or respect for life. They are committing pretty much the same crimes as Vick and his crew, but on an incredibly grand scale. Every hunter I've ever met has respect for animals and want the ones they hunt to suffer as little as possible. This shows character and honor. Individuals who make jokes about animal cruelty and feel nothing tugging at their heartstrings when they are exposed to it are only one small step up from the a$$holes who run the meat packing industry.

 

[Eric]

Why do people have to be ugly. :td:

The problem with the individuals who run the meat packing industry is that they have no honor or respect for life. They are committing pretty much the same crimes as Vick and his crew, but on an incredibly grand scale. Every hunter I've ever met has respect for animals and want the ones they hunt to suffer as little as possible. This shows character and honor. Individuals who make jokes about animal cruelty and feel nothing tugging at their heartstrings when they are exposed to it are only one small step up from the a$$holes who run the meat packing industry.

I agree 100%.

 

[James]

I agree with you briman1970
For example people like Eric would be a hunter like that and actually eats it in the end so it doesn't get wasted.

 

[Ixix]

With all the talk about mike vick and his dogfighting, folks have been talking about is hunting wrong too?

What are your thoughts?

Should hunting be illegal too??

oh puleezzz! Two separate issues here, one having to do with survival, and one having to do with cruelty.

but, in my own, humble, opinion?

If it's for fun and sport, then hunting is wrong. Life isn't something you play God with.

If it's for food/livelihood then hunting is an essential. But if you must kill an animal for food, then i believe proper respect should be given to that animal that gave it's life for you. But that's my opinion.

But i doubt that vick was starving and his only means of survival was eating dog.... :td:

As for slaughterhouses and cruelty there, that is why i try my best to shop for organic/kosher/halal meat vendors which make it clear how the animal is treated and how it is slaughtered. Like I said, I do my best....but no matter what meat i buy, i do my best to treat it with respect and not let it go to waste....

You are perfectly right (except for the fact that we are not carnivorous at all, but only omnivorous - mostly vegetables with only some meat), but only if you also agree that our society/species is far from civilised, disrespects all other species although it claims this respect and all resources/rights for itself nonetheless and hasnt changed at all since our beginnings.

Then, and only then, you are absolutely right and I would fully agree with you.

when you eat vegetables you are still killing...only instead of an animal, you are killing a plant... one exists on one level of consciousness and the other on another. Where do we set the limit as to what type of life we can kill for food and what type of life we can't? Plants are born, live, and die. They 'breath' 'eat' and 'drink'....otherwise they would die. There is even evidence that plants respond to sounds/vibrations and just because they don't moo, cluck, walk, bleed, or have a cute face, does that make them less of a life than a cow? Who's to say there isn't a level of 'pain' when a tomatoe is ripped off it's vine?

If you really want to respect life and be civilized, then your diet should consist of true non living foods such as rocks and dirt....i was going to suggest wood, but trees are living too

 

[Barrucadu]

I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I'm in Sweden at the moment and the person living across the road from where i'm staying is a hunter. All of the walls in one of the rooms in his house is covered in skulls and antlers (he hunts moose). He also eats them. Nothing is wasted, and he tries to kill them as painlessly as possible.
Sure, there is an element of sport in it (such as hanging your trophies on the wall), but he dosn't just kill for the sake of killing.

I don't see how you can compare dogfighting to hunting, they are completely different.

 

[dhscott]

Eating fruits isn't bad, the tree / plant intentionally grows the fruit so that an animal eats it and by doing so carries the seeds inside off to pastures new... That's as soon as they have er... made their deposit so to speak

Killing vegetables is just as bad as killing any animal for food as said above. A point well made I must say. It's just that the vegetable doesn't breath, bleed or scream or feel pain.

It's therefore kind-of hypocritical to say Hunting for food is wrong when pulling up Yer 'Taters is just as bad in a theoretical way

 

[Ixix]

Eating fruits isn't bad, the tree / plant intentionally grows the fruit so that an animal eats it and by doing so carries the seeds inside off to pastures new... That's as soon as they have er... made their deposit so to speak

Killing vegetables is just as bad as killing any animal for food as said above. A point well made I must say. It's just that the vegetable doesn't breath, bleed or scream or feel pain.

It's therefore kind-of hypocritical to say Hunting for food is wrong when pulling up Yer 'Taters is just as bad in a theoretical way

actually plants do breath....some are meat eaters too (they eat bugs and flies)