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Why do you call this cybersquatting?

"Manual Link Building" sounds generic and descriptive to me.

:?

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It also shows that cybersquatting is still profitable.
 
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Why do you call this cybersquatting?

"Manual Link Building" sounds generic and descriptive to me.

:?

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I think it's the fact that the .com bought it. Did the seller reach out to the .com? I mean after all, if .co was a must have then why didn't the .com owner get it at sunrise?

It's a done deal but I wouldn't recommend this type of business practice to others.
 
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I see nothing unethical about registering generic terms and selling them to end users who are using them in a generic sense.

In fact, I think it's unethical for business to hold generic terms hostage by trying to trademark generic terms for their descriptive meaning. If one follows that logic, then we all need to fold up shop and go home because every time we sell a domain to an end user, then we are squatting. Like it or not, this business is built on buying internet property and waiting for (or pursuing) likely buyers.

Do like Apple and brand the term Apple for selling computers, or make up a "wordoid," like Verizon and TM it and defend it.

Abdul and his buyer did this deal the right way, the buyer apparently understanding that his/her TM "rights" to this domain was shaky at best. Kudos to both!

The USPTO will NOT allow a business to trademark a generic term for its generic use, and that's the way it should be.

As I follow the laws of my country, I don't really care what other countries do re: trademark registration. I agree with the USPTO policy 100% because if government allows Big Business to sully the language with ridiculous TMs on descriptive terms, we are truly screwed, for you wouldn't be able to utter common words without being sued, post a classified ad with descriptive terms without being sued, post a blog post (with adsense attached) without being sued.

Now if the end user is using the domain as a trademark for anything that doesn't describe the business, then that is a different story, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

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Why do you call this cybersquatting?

"Manual Link Building" sounds generic and descriptive to me.

:?

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In spite of the fact that most of what I will write here is a repeat of what I already explained....the definition of Cybersquatting I most associate with is:

"A person who registers a well-known company, brand, or personal name as an Internet domain name, in the hope of later selling it at a profit."

I believe a business that operates and owns most tlds including the .COM, .NET, .ORG, .CO.UK, .INFO, .ME,.BIZ, and even .TEL has, in essence, established their brand: would you consider setting up your own company on the .co given the above TLDs taken? So I consider it to be the moral equivalent of what most people consider cybersquatting even if it doesn't meet most domainers definition which is part of the ACPA, and therefore, an American legal standard more than the de-facto global definition.

While I consider it to be the equivalent - I don't necessarily find the practice abhorrent in all cases.


Then again, I think link building services are the spawn of internet Satan anyway as they offer things like "Buy Prominent EDU Links." This ruins the integrity of the system AND should Google find out - get you blacklisted.

"Manual Link Building" of Boca don't appear to be registered as a Florida business anyway so not sure how they work. Domaining as a whole. Sucks. It seems nothing is legit which makes it fun, exciting and all of us hypocrites anyway. Woo hoo.. It's Jan 1 and I'm off to a good start pissing even myself off. yay!
 
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I own PleaseContact.co, which I registered as a defensive reg to my .com (parked) and .net (site) of the same.

However, had I not been on the ball and someone else had registered it, there is no way I would have considered the term a potential TM, nor would I have considered the owner a squatter. I might have grumbled a bit and maybe made an offer on it, and if the price was too high, I would have moved on. I just would think, "Gee (well, maybe stronger, LOL), how stupid of me not to reg this when I could, but that's life." And I have thought this about other domains that I missed. But I would not even consider going after the owner, even if I knew he/she registered it because of my site. I just assume that generic terms used generically are fair game.

Besides, I would feel secure that I had the .com, and I wouldn't worry too much.

If I felt guilty about every generic term that I registered, I would not be able to get out of bed in the morning. I would just be sure that I'm not registering something like Apple and then parking it with Apple Computer or Apple Records ads--to me, that's squatting--but if I'm selling apples from an orchard and I have an apple domain (e.g., apple.whatever), I would not worry if the orchard down the road was also selling apples and even may have been selling them before I was.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, defaultuser, I'm just trying to understand your definition of cybersquatting and how you are able to register anything generic if you are so worried about being a squatter on generic terms used generically.

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I'm not trying to give you a hard time, defaultuser, I'm just trying to understand your definition of cybersquatting and how you are able to register anything generic if you are so worried about being a squatter on generic terms used generically.

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I'm not. But .CO is mostly about defensive regges, borderline behaviour.

What I have hard time with is domainers that insisting that everything they do should be legal. That domainers insist that UDRP and ACPA is all anti-domainer. That domainers insist that *everything* is fair - they could have registered the name themselves if they wanted it....

Profit driven motive is a something that has moved civilization forward. It is the same force that drives civilization backwards.

.CO is mostly about defensive regges and profit driven from the threat of reputation damage.

Multiple times I said I'm not necessarily judging a domainer action. Most domainers have an obvious TM domain and KNOW IT. Most domainers make up stories - negotiations are less about negotiating and more about spinning a yarn.Most domain sale announcements are LIES or not transparent. The industry is a sham. I don't have much against it - I've made money from it - the difference is that I'm honest about it where most people put on their self righteous holier than thou cloak.

Take .XXX - all the people that investing that deny they are part of the porn industry (despite SIGNING ELECTRONICALLY a document saying they are). Take all those people that sell names they don't own. People that pretend to be who they aren't - make up business partners - inflate sales. Domaining is mostly anonymous - be totally different if it was transparent.

That's all. Off topic for .CO except that the reality of .CO is that 50% of fails are "defensive" or "expanding their domain coverage" and 20% are shortcuts and the rest are whatever they are.

Buying a .CO to sell to someone who owns all other TLDs is either "clever business" or "cybersquatting" or somewhere in between. I'm pretty sure if you had FoodForThought.Com/net/org/tv and you used it as a primary source of income - you'd be less than pleased if I came along with a .CO selling it for $1000. Now what if you weren't in the domain businesses? You're not aware of drop catching, etc. You just expect no one else to have taken it (why would they, you own every TLD). You're more than just a little "gee" mad as you say.

What happens if you don't pay $1000? It's generic phrase - maybe I'll put some food porn on it. Now we're a little more concerned. Where do you draw the line at what's ok and what's not? And that's my point: where do you draw the line? You can't because each person has a different one. Have you ever seen brokers that hold domains? They have disclaimers that say things like "3rd party systems put ads on them - if it's your Trademark I apologize - I don't know what ads are showing and I intend to develop it later in a way that doesn't infringe - honest!" This is really what goes on.

And then we "non noobs" tell new "investors" that everything you do in domaining is legitimate.

.CO is primarily in existence to take advantage of these gray trademark areas. Clever "investors" are doing fine working these .CO borderline infringing angles.

I have no problem with ManualLinkBuilding.co being sold to ManualLinkBuilding.co.uk - but to pretend that it wasn't a domain bought to sell at an inflated price to that one owner is just bs. So the new owner is happy. Fine. It's a win-win, I guess. It's just like the single mom that gives a lap dance - she enjoys it too you know. It's not exploitative at all (though I think the exploitation is actually on the sad desperate lonely men that need to pay for that). The only difference between my definition of Cybersquatting and the Legal US definition of Cybersquatting is that a registered TM didn't exist. That's a line.. to some it's an important distinction. To me it's not.

to me, a lot of .Co is borderline unethical/immoral

Laws are there for a reason that goes farther than just drawing a line up to which we can go and not be doing anything wrong. It's a legal boundary; however it's not a moral / ethical one.

I could go on but every time I say this people tell me to leave the industry if I hate it that much. This misses the point completely but it always happens. I hate the industry of my day job too- unfortunately I need to eat, live somewhere and block out the people that get hurt. I do that. I live with myself because I'm not a bad person and I know that. I can't fix the world but I'll at least admit that I don't try.

If I could start an anarchist state, I would. If someone tells me how to do that, I will. In the meantime I live within the morally corrupt society we live in - domaining being a major morally bankrupt ghetto at the center of the that society. Yes, I pinch my nose and play there.. the stink can be manageable.
 
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I'm selling DHH.co in the auction section if anyone is interested
 
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Very ethno-centric viewpoint. The US is conditioned for .com. The rest of the world is conditioned for their own country extensions. But hey, who am I to get in the way of true .com love?;)

True. As long as it's hosted on .COM.

Any decent for-profit business that wishes to have unlimited growth potential, has but one choice when it comes to an anchor TLD and that's .COM.

There have been an almost infinite number of businesses that realized this too late in the game and had to change their business and/or domain name. The global English-speaking Internet population is conditioned to add ".COM" to the end of any name. This is not changing. The only time anyone meeting the parameters of my bolded' sentence should register a .CO is if they already own the .COM. This is fact.

Developing a .CO without control of the .COM name is simply settling for a second-class back-alley storefront with extremely limited growth potential that is guaranteed to bleed visitors. It's called swimming upstream with a concrete block tied to both ankles. ((:ghost:)) IMO.

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------

In addition, the supply of .COM domains is more than sufficient to host every website in the Galaxy and using ccTLDs as gTLDs is unnatural.


---------- Post added at 04:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 AM ----------

Hey Bud,


You didn't read my post thoroughly, I can tell. Think deeply about what the word "generic" means. Here's a definition from Merriam-Webster:


Definition of GENERIC
1
a : relating to or characteristic of a whole group or class : general
b : being or having a nonproprietary name <generic drugs>
c : having no particularly distinctive quality or application <generic restaurants>


"Sugar" is generic, "Sugar Associates" is not. "Please pass the sugar", generic. "Please pass the sugar associates" ;), not generic. I don't know if it gets simpler than that.

I would love to talk to the owner of Computer-Associates.com who thinks that's generic. I will have the same words for her/him. It's not generic.

Sugar.com - generic
Sugar-Associates.com - not generic

Computer.com - generic
Computer-Associates.com - not generic

It's funny that when a real estate investor owns 10 houses that perhaps others could be owning or living in, nobody complains. But when someone owns 10 generic domains, everyone wants to call it cyberquatting. It's not cybersquatting, it's investment. If I go out and register "AllMyFacebooks.com", that's cybersquatting. "Facebook" was a made-up name that is directly trademarkable for business purposes. The problem starts at the TM bureaucracy level. There's no way any registry system should be allowing TMs on generic words. How freakish is that to have all the common words of the world "trademarked". Laughable.

Yet we find people selling ANARGUABLYGENERIC.co to ANARGUABLYGENERIC.com on a daily basis. These are the daily sales YOU CARE about.

Domainers should be searching out the creative new fresh ideas, right? Do we have another term we should use.. how about "Investing in and Expanding our Web Presence" instead of defensive reg.


Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Words aren't Trademarks, trademarks are trademarks. If people were as creative as you believe they are - we wouldn't need Trademarks in the first place.


Is this a fictitious or real example? It is possible but wouldn't happen - well it could if it is deemed that the current site is deemed a poor mask for holding the .com name ransom. It's a good enough effort that I'm sure Apple doesn't care - but then ORG doesn't market itself as Company does it - if it was Apple Company then it becomes more difficult to defend, no? Or will we at this point switch back to the .CO could be company but isn't necessarily argument? All hypothetical and fictitious of course.



Computer Associates is not common? I can find the person who regged Computer-Associates.com here at NP to disagree. Maybe the line isn't visible and needs legal definition. I agree that UDRP/Trademark law is broken but I'm not sure changes would favor domainers.

None of this changes the fundamental and unalterable fact that an
ANARGUABLYGENERIC.co was sold to ANARGUABLYGENERIC.com.

I consider investing in a .CO name where one other person owns the .COM/.NET/.ORG/.CO.UK/.INFO/.ME/.BIZ and even .TEL to be the moral equivalent of cybersquatting. The original registrant would be brave to bet $20 on what is essentially a universe of interested parties of ONE (who else would buy it) if investing $20 is brave. More often than not these sales originate from offers made while the .CO is available or in a "taste" period.


I don't see where selling to someone who owns MOST of the available TLDs is a good sale and not just being a vulture. The reality is that its cheaper to spend $1000 buying a hijacked name that would never be used for anything than to proceed with legal remedies.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------

I have to ask.. do you own EMJOHN.COM? I was thinking of buying EMJOHN.CO and putting a Blog on it..


---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 AM ----------

Hi Ms Domainer,

Your view on this is the correct one.

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I own PleaseContact.co, which I registered as a defensive reg to my .com (parked) and .net (site) of the same.

However, had I not been on the ball and someone else had registered it, there is no way I would have considered the term a potential TM, nor would I have considered the owner a squatter. I might have grumbled a bit and maybe made an offer on it, and if the price was too high, I would have moved on. I just would think, "Gee (well, maybe stronger, LOL), how stupid of me not to reg this when I could, but that's life." And I have thought this about other domains that I missed. But I would not even consider going after the owner, even if I knew he/she registered it because of my site. I just assume that generic terms used generically are fair game.

Besides, I would feel secure that I had the .com, and I wouldn't worry too much.

If I felt guilty about every generic term that I registered, I would not be able to get out of bed in the morning. I would just be sure that I'm not registering something like Apple and then parking it with Apple Computer or Apple Records ads--to me, that's squatting--but if I'm selling apples from an orchard and I have an apple domain (e.g., apple.whatever), I would not worry if the orchard down the road was also selling apples and even may have been selling them before I was.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, defaultuser, I'm just trying to understand your definition of cybersquatting and how you are able to register anything generic if you are so worried about being a squatter on generic terms used generically.

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"Sugar" is generic, "Sugar Associates" is not. "Please pass the sugar", generic. "Please pass the sugar associates" ;), not generic. I don't know if it gets simpler than that.

I would love to talk to the owner of Computer-Associates.com who thinks that's generic. I will have the same words for her/him. It's not generic.

Sugar.com - generic
Sugar-Associates.com - not generic

Computer.com - generic
Computer-Associates.com - not generic

It's funny that when a real estate investor owns 10 houses that perhaps others could be owning or living in, nobody complains. But when someone owns 10 generic domains, everyone wants to call it cyberquatting. It's not cybersquatting, it's investment. If I go out and register "AllMyFacebooks.com", that's cybersquatting. "Facebook" was a made-up name that is directly trademarkable for business purposes. The problem starts at the TM bureaucracy level. There's no way any registry system should be allowing TMs on generic words. How freakish is that to have all the common words of the world "trademarked". Laughable.

The term itself is only one factor, the usage is another.

"Generic" terms can still easily infringe on TMs.

The definition of "generic" in TM law is highly subjective.

Brad
 
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It really doesn't matter who bought it. Those are generic keywords. If the owner of the .com didn't want anyone to step on her/his toes, they should have branded differently.

I think it's the fact that the .com bought it. Did the seller reach out to the .com? I mean after all, if .co was a must have then why didn't the .com owner get it at sunrise?

It's a done deal but I wouldn't recommend this type of business practice to others.


---------- Post added at 04:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ----------

The subjectivity IS the problem. That's why the whole process is mixed up. TM law makers need grammar lessons...:p

The term itself is only one factor, the usage is another.

"Generic" terms can still easily infringe on TMs.

The definition of "generic" in TM law is highly subjective.

Brad


---------- Post added at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 AM ----------

It's not unnatural, it's business.

I think that is a fundamental statement.
All previous attempts have demonstrated the limitations of that strategy.
IMO

:blink:
 
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It really doesn't matter who bought it. Those are generic keywords. If the owner of the .com didn't want anyone to step on her/his toes, they should have branded differently.

Generic domains can be TMed. I would love to see how the chips fell if you owned apple.co and tried to sell to apple.com. The "generic" arguement gets tossed the moment you contact an established website which operates under the same domain name.

Can you say bad faith, squatter?
 
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If Apple Inc. wanted their "generic" name, they should have tried to get it at sunrise. And they should buy all the other extensions at Sunrise as well, if they can. Otherwise, the field is open for anyone to buy it because it is generic.


However I see what you are saying. I, personally, am not in the practice of holding people ransom for money. If I owned the name, I would sell it to them at a reasonable price that is fair. Unfortunately the market is full of extortionists, and that is a shame.


Generic domains can be TMed. I would love to see how the chips fell if you owned apple.co and tried to sell to apple.com. The "generic" arguement gets tossed the moment you contact an established website which operates under the same domain name.

Can you say bad faith, squatter?
 
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If Apple Inc. wanted their "generic" name, they should have tried to get it at sunrise. And they should buy all the other extensions at Sunrise as well, if they can. Otherwise, the field is open for anyone to buy it because it is generic.

They are entitled to the name if they have it TM'ed, generic dictionary word or not, that's how it works, you only have to ask some pretty well-known internet lawyers on this site to find that out.

Do you really believe a domain like apple.co is open for anyone to register and Apple inc cannot say or do a thing about, c'mon, lets get serious here.

Its all about bad faith in these cases, if you had an informational sites on the apples (the fruit) then there wouldn't be a need for Apple to come after you, but if you had ipod and ipad ads all over the site, that is really showing bad faith and would give them more ammo when disputing it.
 
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I didn't say that what I said was the way that it is. I was giving a fair estimation of what I think is the appropriate way to approach generics. Just because TM law "exists" doesn't mean that it is correct. It has more holes than a doughnut shop.

For the sake of every sector on the internet, generics shouldn't be TMable. Multi-billion dollar company or not.

They are entitled to the name if they have it TM'ed, generic dictionary word or not, that's how it works, you only have to ask some pretty well-known internet lawyers on this site to find that out.

Do you really believe a domain like apple.co is open for anyone to register and Apple inc cannot say or do a thing about, c'mon, lets get serious here.

Its all about bad faith in these cases, if you had an informational sites on the apples (the fruit) then there wouldn't be a need for Apple to come after you, but if you had ipod and ipad ads all over the site, that is really showing bad faith and would give them more ammo when disputing it.
 
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For the sake of every sector on the internet, generics shouldn't be TMable. Multi-billion dollar company or not.

I agree, but that's the way it is
 
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The US is conditioned for .com. The rest of the world is conditioned for their own country extensions.

At least we've established the FACT that .CO is a terrible choice for anyone planning to target the US market. ((:santa:))
 
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Please don't put words in my mouth. It's beneath you. .CO is a fine extension. Let's get that much straight...;)

All we have established is that ethno-centricity can be very blinding.

At least we've established the FACT that .CO is a terrible choice for anyone planning to target the US market. ((:santa:))
 
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My input in the "for or against"-.co is this:
namepros.co

Try visit the site. :)
 
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