IT.COM

trademark Can you sell trademark domains if the trademark isn't globally recognized?

Spaceship Spaceship
Watch

Chris Hydrick

Top Member
Impact
11,800
I'm wondering if you could sell a domain such as Segway . tld?

I was informed that it wasn't globally recognized, therefor it could be sold.

This is interesting, because I thought if a domain had a trademark, you couldn't sell it. When I googled segway definition, google included that it was a trademark.

If it is not a globally recognized TM, then you am allowed to sell a TM domain?

upload_2017-11-21_3-31-4.png


Thank you in advance.
 
Last edited:
2
•••
The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
but you are acting like nobody else has the right to say anything else

It's words on a screen. You, I, or anyone else can disagree with them.

In a domain dispute with Segway over a "segway.tld" domain name, Segway is going to win.

In the context of this forum, where it is obvious that there is no shortage of folks who have the first clue what they are talking about, it isn't particularly helpful (in my opinion, with which you are free to disagree) to go on about absurd hypotheticals or improbable edge situations which aren't relevant to whether Segway needs a trademark registration in every country on earth in order to win that dispute.

For a question like:

If it is not a globally recognized TM, then you am allowed to sell a TM domain?

...it is plainly obvious that winning a domain name dispute does not require a "globally recognized TM".

Hey, maybe your name is Joseph Segway, and you are using the name for your personal website. If so, great. But that is neither the question nor the facts here.


in a few months I will have TM rights there for Segway as an 'electric vehicle with two weals' , without Segway Inc from US to not be able to do anything afterwards, if the TM is granted.

...which is also ill-informed, since the probable course will be for Segway to apply to cancel that registration, as they have done successfully in quite a few countries in which people have tried that.

But, in point of fact, they wouldn't even have to do that since it's been registered in China since 2002:

App/Reg No
3193591
Nice Class
9
Filling Date
2002-05-30
Registered Date
2003-08-07
Protection Term
2013-08-07--2023-08-06
Current Status
Renewal finished
Owner's Name
SEGWAY INC.赛格威公司
Owner's Address
14 TECHNOLOGY DRIVE,BEDFORD,NH 03110,UNITED STATES OF AMERICA美国新罕布什尔州贝德福德市技术路14号

They have six other "SEGWAY" marks registered there, in addition to that one.

You certainly have the "right" to say that Segway doesn't have trademark registrations in China. The facts are that they have a bunch of them.

Does running off to some obscure jurisdiction to obtain paper trademark rights work as a defense in domain disputes? No.

http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2011-0822

One matter which has given the Panel cause for pause, is that the Respondent apparently still held a registered DURACELL Community Trademark, in respect of goods in International Classes 32 and 33, when the Complaint was filed. However, in Madonna Ciccone P/k/a Madonna v. Dan Parisi and Madonna.com, WIPO Case No. D2000-0847, the panel said:


“It would be a mistake to conclude that mere registration of a trademark creates a legitimate interest under the Policy… To establish cognizable rights, the overall circumstances should demonstrate that the registration was obtained in good faith for the purpose of making bona fide use of the mark in the jurisdiction where the mark is registered…”


Similarly, in Beca Inc v. CanAm Health Source Inc., WIPO Case No. D2004-0298, the panel confirmed that a UDRP panel can, in an appropriate case, question the legitimacy of a trademark relied upon by a respondent for the purpose of assessing that respondent’s bona fides under the UDRP. While the mere fact that a trademark has been applied for or obtained by a respondent may in appropriate cases be a highly relevant consideration, such fact of itself is not an absolute bar to a complainant succeeding in appropriate cases under the Policy.


The Madonna and Beca cases were followed by this Panel in Uponor Oyj and Uponor Innovation AB v. Iman G. Mohammadi, Network Supporters Co. Ltd, WIPO Case No. D2008-0209.


In this case, the available evidence shows that the Respondent, and others who may have been involved in marketing the “Duracell Energy Drink”, have been trading off the Complainant’s goodwill in its DURACELL mark. Indeed, the Respondent’s founder appears to have acknowledged as much in the statements which were attributed to him by the “www.hoteliermiddleeast.com” website. Such circumstances fall a long way short of demonstrating that the Respondent’s registration of the DURACELL Community Trademark was “obtained in good faith for the purpose of making a bona fide use of the mark” (to borrow from the language used by the panel in the Madonna case; although in that case the relevant trademark had been obtained in Tunisia as opposed to the Community TM registration at issue in the present dispute, the principle is apt). Furthermore, the Complainant has applied to invalidate the Respondent’s Community Trademark registration, and it appears that the Respondent has not opposed that application. Nor has the Respondent provided any answer to the Complainant’s bad faith allegations in this proceeding.

I can tell you for sure that in some countries I can delay anything by up to 10 years in civil courts, without any TM rights to be able to stop me

Yeah, you can. By the same token, if we are talking about a .com name for example, the TM claimant can bring a suit in Virginia, where the registry is located, and the Virginia court isn't going to care about your stalling suit elsewhere. That has been done multiple times before. Here's one example of that in action:

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/250/610/2381296/

On April 9, 2002, Park filed an application for an injunction in the District Court of Seoul, Korea, requesting that court to issue an injunction prohibiting Hangang from transferring the domain name as ordered by this Court. The District Court of Seoul provisionally granted this injunction by order dated September 17, 2002, finding that this Court likely lacked jurisdiction over the matter.[11] In light of these proceedings and the Korean court's order, it appears that Hangang has refused to transfer the domain name as directed by Order of this Court. GlobalSantaFe, therefore, now seeks by motion a second amended judgment, which not only directs Hangang and VeriSign to transfer the domain name, but additionally directs Veri-Sign, the registry, to cancel the infringing domain name pursuant to the ACPA until the domain name is transferred to Global-SantaFe.

Bottom line: US court, where the registry is located, didn't give a shit about the Korean court order.

But the OP isn't asking about applying for trademark registrations in various places, litigating in slow jurisdictions, or other schemes which have been attempted and failed in relation to well-known marks.

You are certainly free to disagree as you see fit, and I'm just as free to respond as I see fit.
 
9
•••
8
•••
Segway actually is a generic word .. without looking at the dictionary it means to "shift into"

No. You are thinking of "segue".

"Segway" is an invented term which is a trademark for only one thing. Period.
 
5
•••
TMs are a minefield and NPs is great to get advice and help from others. This leads me into this....

Someone on here is trying to sell a small portfolio for $300 - I commented that some of the domains are definite TMs of an absolutely massive global company and the the NPs mods removed my comment...

''comments are not allowed in sales threads / thank you for understanding''

I don't think this was right - we should be able to comment and warn others. My comment was a one line, something like...

''Definite TM issues with BAE domains''

And the portfolio is still for sale.

You have to use the REPORT button in the thread. Then the mods will sort it out.
 
5
•••
Any domain can be sold.
It is only question of price.
 
4
•••
Let me start with my usual pre-amble in that I am not a trademark lawyer .. I do have an active interest in trademarks and such and have informed myself a bit in these regards .. but for a absolute definitive answer legal council should be sought ..

Now with that out of the way .. lol .. let's continue with my opinion ...

First of all .. there is nothing illegal with selling any domain as far as I know.

What is illegal is actively using that domain is it is a trademark in some way so as to gain from the trademark holder.

Meaning that if you advertised "Segways" at the domain "Segway.whatever", in a market where the "Segway Inc" sells "Segways" .. then you are infringing on their trademark.


That being said .. if you invent a new product in one of the trademark catagories other than whatever category "Segways" falls into .. then usually it's perfectly fine to own, use, buy or sell the domain.

It isn't completely black and white however. Specific made up words do tend to have stronger trademark rights (I couldn't tell you the actual legal reason). For example "Microsoft" would be harder to justify owning than "Apple".

Generic words are pretty hard to enforce . again .. as long as you aren't using it in the same context or category as someone before you.

Segway actually is a generic word .. without looking at the dictionary it means to "shift into" ... ramps off the highway are known as "Segways" because you're transitioning off the highway. So while you couldn't use Segway to sell "Segways" or likely even scooters or probably even skateboards .. you could use "Segway" as your brand name for sex change services .. or anything else completely unrelated.


Very important to keep in mind ... "Globally recognised" is in itself a term that depending on the mark, could be very subjective. Even "Globally" isn't really accurate. Trademarks generally are country/region specific .. although it could certainly be valid that some marks are recognised in pretty much all regions and essentially be "globally" enforceable.
 
3
•••
You have to use the REPORT button in the thread. Then the mods will sort it out.

Hypothetically speaking, what do you do if you report it and reviewer reject the report?

Would you create a thread such as this, with the hopes that a pro such as @jberryhill would respond, and help you gain a greater understanding of trademark domains?
 
3
•••
By
The issue with what you did was you used their likeliness to make money. Whether you did or not, that is how they got you. I use to hire an art studio/design agency with the word apple in their domain for years. And they are still up and running with no issues.

If you use apple in your name and make money without using "Apples likeliness" you will be ok.

The Beatles sued Steve Jobs about "apple" because he made a big mistake by telling the world he chose the apple name because of his love for the Beatles. :)


The reason might be slightly different

The beatles. Owned the trademark for
Apple in the class of music

While jobs owned
Apple in the class
Of computers

The problem started
When itunes sold music
 
Last edited:
3
•••
Not another #!&$@ing trademark thread, for the love of all that is good and holy!
 
Last edited:
2
•••
2
•••
If the terms get adopted by everyone it could become a proper noun meaning 'electric vehicle with two weels' and the trademark rights could not be recognized anymore.

And if dogs meowed and chased mice, they'd be cats.

VERY RARELY, through failure to police, a trademark can be lost. "Segway" is nowhere near that. It is generally useful to address facts in this reality, and not some alternative one.
 
2
•••
You wouldn't want to be the one holding the bag when/if trouble comes. If you've go $$ to spend and tons of choices, a tm type domain should be very low on the list....it at all.
 
2
•••
It isn't completely black and white however. Specific made up words do tend to have stronger trademark rights (I couldn't tell you the actual legal reason). For example "Microsoft" would be harder to justify owning than "Apple".

I have been using a Betfair API trading platfrom called The Geeks Toy since its creation (actually, it changed the name later on, but I like to remember it under its original name). Application owner was apparently fan of Carlsberg beer, and it inspired him for slogan "Probably the best betfair trading application in the world".

A few year into existence, the owner announced at the forum that Carlsberg contacted him and asked to remove his slogan, as they had trademarked slogan "Probably the best beer in the world". He tried negotiating, but they didn't want to listen, so he replaced "Probably" with "Possibly" in his slogan.

Alright, he was not using a single word, but entire similar slogan here, but still, it was completely different industry, he even promoted Carlsberg with that slogan, yet he had to turn it down. Crazy laws, I don't get it...
 
2
•••
Alright, he was not using a single word, but entire similar slogan here, but still, it was completely different industry, he even promoted Carlsberg with that slogan, yet he had to turn it down. Crazy laws, I don't get it...

Nike has “Just do it”, your friend starts advertising for a moving company “just move it” or the old coke ad: “It’s the real thing”, your friend makes up an online hip hop jewelry store using “It’s the real bling”.

Brand protection people might find out. Or might not. and will argue it with you in or out of court with intimidating legal arguments if they find out. Why risk it?
What if you friends company became highly successful borrowing a phrase? The legal system if you fight it will chew up all the earnings. Just a thought.
 
2
•••
Nike has “Just do it”, your friend starts advertising for a moving company “just move it” or the old coke ad: “It’s the real thing”, your friend makes up an online hip hop jewelry store using “It’s the real bling”.

Brand protection people might find out. Or might not. and will argue it with you in or out of court with intimidating legal arguments if they find out. Why risk it?
What if you friends company became highly successful borrowing a phrase? The legal system if you fight it will chew up all the earnings. Just a thought.

don't fight with the real big guys

but you asking about TM domains
there are millions of TMs
you have never heard of
 
2
•••
The reason people put trademarks on things is so others do not profit from their name. If someone wants compensation for damages it will not be based on how much you sold it for.
 
2
•••
2
•••
I think this sums it up pretty well.


In 2003 the United States signed the Madrid Protocol
treaty permitting the holders of U.S. trademark applications and/or registrations to extend their U.S. trademark rights globally into over 80 countries around the world simply by filing requests to do so through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. Although the treaty dramatically simplified the process of protecting U.S. trademarks internationally, it did not create the mythical global trademark as many believe. In that regard, here are a few tips that every U.S. trademark holder should know about the current state of protecting their U.S. trademarks abroad in today’s global marketplace:

1. There is No “Global Trademark”
First, there is no “global trademark” that can be used to protect your trademark in every country around the world. Although treaties have been entered making it easier for trademark owners to extend protection of their trademarks into other countries, the world’s trademark systems remain largely separate and maintained on a country-by-country basis.

The myth of the global trademark most likely emanates from the Madrid Protocol system and how trademark rights are extended through the World Intellectual Property Office’s (“WIPO”) clearing house for trademarks. In short, when you apply for international protection of your U.S. trademark through the Madrid Protocol system you effectively extend your U.S. rights to WIPO’s global trademark clearing house located in Geneva, Switzerland. When this occurs, you receive an international certificate of registration which, in and of itself, is relatively affordable. However, that certificate does not protect your trademark in all of the countries of the world or even the countries that have signed on to the Madrid Protocol treaty. Rather, once received, this “international registration” is used to extend your U.S. trademark into the other member nations of the Madrid Protocol that you select.

As such, under the Madrid Protocol, a U.S. trademark holder does receive an “international registration” but this is not effective to protect its trademark in the other member nations until the trademark is specifically extended into those countries by the trademark holder. Each country, in turn, has a fee for such extension.

Thus, under the Madrid Protocol it is easy to extend your U.S. trademark internationally on a country-by-country basis. But the myth of the global trademark remains just that, a myth.

2. Extending Your U.S. Trademark Under the Madrid Protocol
Although there is no one global trademark, U.S. trademark owners can still extend their U.S. trademarks easily and affordably under the Madrid Protocol into more than 80 countries worldwide. To do so, U.S. trademark holders need to:

a. Own a U.S. trademark application or registration;
b. Be a U.S. citizen, a U.S. business entity, or have a real and effective presence in the U.S., and
c. Know which specific countries in which they would like protection that are part of the Madrid Protocol. For a list of those countries Click Here.

An application to extend their U.S. trademark rights may then be made with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office directly seeking protection in specific countries who have also signed the Madrid Protocol.

3. Additional Information About the Madrid Protocol
The Madrid Protocol has vastly simplified the international protection of trademarks. However, trademark owners should be aware of a few important facts when extending their rights under Madrid.

a. Filing Fees are Non-Refundable: As with a U.S. application, the government and/or organizational filing fees to extend your trademark under Madrid are non-refundable. As such, it is highly recommended that you have a professional Research Reportconducted to search the U.S. and international records of the countries in which protection is sought prior to filing for the same to make sure the trademark is available for you to be registered;

b. The 5-Year Rule: As mentioned above, a U.S. trademark holder may extend protection of either their U.S. application or registration filed or registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. When doing so, however, be advised that for the first 5 years extensions of protection under the Madrid Protocol rely on the continued existence of the underlying U.S. trademark application or registration. As such, if your trademark application gets refused in the U.S. or otherwise becomes abandoned you will need to convert any requested extension under the Madrid Protocol into a nationalized or direct application with that country’s intellectual property office in which an extension was sought. Typically this is easy to do. However, additional costs apply.

c. Examination by Foreign Trademark Offices: It should also be noted that just because you request an extension of protection of your U.S. trademark into a foreign country through the Madrid Protocol it does not mean that you will automatically receive protection therefore. The foreign trademark office, like the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, will, upon receiving your requested extension, examine your request to determine if your trademark is entitled to protection in that country. This may result in your trademark being registered in that country wherein you will receive a document known as a Grant of Protection or it could involve having your trademark refused on procedural or substantive grounds.

4. Protection in Non-Madrid Protocol Countries
Lastly, protection for your trademark is also available in countries that are not members of the Madrid Protocol. For instance, as of the publication of this article most countries in Africa, South America and the Middle East are not members. As such, to protect your trademark in these countries the same must be initiated by filing directly in these countries’ respective intellectual property offices via local counsel and not through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

Summary
In conclusion, there is no global trademark. However, the United States’ membership in the Madrid Protocol has made it easy and affordable for U.S. trademark holders to protect their trademarks in roughly 80 countries around the globe. Moreover, protection can be secured in non-member nations as well, it just takes a few extra steps.
 
2
•••
You were misinformed.

@jberryhill - Thank you for the quick response! I really appreciate it!

@Ategy.com -- I know you weren't the one who informed me that it was OK to sell a trademark domain as long as it wasn't globally recognized, but I think you will find value in knowing that I was misinformed in regards to this particular issue.
 
1
•••
And if dogs meowed and chased mice, they'd be cats.

VERY RARELY, through failure to police, a trademark can be lost. "Segway" is nowhere near that. It is generally useful to address facts in this reality, and not some alternative one.
It seems to me or you are a little to aggressive for a casual talk on a forum? I know who you are and I respect you're experience, but you are acting like nobody else has the right to say anything else, just you have this right. You want to tell me that in the hundreds or thousands of TM issues you were part of, you were always right? If me, an amateur, can find in a quick search through google 40-50 or more brands that could not be defended anymore because they were adopted as basic nouns, for sure there are much more others and that there will be more brands in this situation. For example,if Segway doesn't have TM rights In China( they don't care if you have TM rights in US) and the other 200 or so countries and if I will apply for a TM rights in China tomorrow, in a few months I will have TM rights there for Segway as an 'electric vehicle with two weals' , without Segway Inc from US to not be able to do anything afterwards, if the TM is granted. I don't intend to do so, but it's just an example as each patent and trademark office from each country has his own view and laws regarding a TM. I can tell you for sure that in some countries I can delay anything by up to 10 years in civil courts, without any TM rights to be able to stop me from using it and even after 10 years in lots of cases the TM right owner recognized by USPTO will not have any rights there.
 
Last edited:
1
•••
I mean, come on, when this is posed as a serious question:

I have burberry.eu.com - No trademark issue?

...then I just don't think that hypotheticals with unusual facts are appropriate to the level of the discussion.
 
1
•••
I know Segway
so its obviously a globally recognised TM

as I am living on the other side of the globe

if someone form australia knows SEGWAY
then we have covered the globe , right?
 
Last edited:
1
•••
Remember this : "price cures all ills".

Just Believe in me : You can only sell TM domains at cheap prices to TM holders.
 
1
•••
@Ategy.com ---
@Ategy.com - Thank you for noting that I am trying to be helpful. That is my underlying intent here.

Here's the thing, it doesn't appear that you had just sold Segway // dot // co. According to: https://www.namepros.com/threads/12-domains-7000-estibot-60-years-2-4m-exacts-generouslover-com-androidworld-org-metrix-co.1050753/ it looks like the auction is still live (though close to closing) and you are actively selling segway // dot // co on NamePros. I appreciate the fact that you are donating 20% of the proceeds to help the Lyons, and empathize with you raising vet bills for little steamie [get well soon steamie!] And with that said, I would have considered bidding, however, after noting the sale would have include a trademarked domain, I did not want to [bid up] or validate the sale of a trademarked domain on NamePros. Earlier this month, I notified a member was selling a trademark domain, and immediately the cancelled their auction, and emailed the trademark owner offering to relinquish the domain free of charge. I'm not a lawyer, but in good faith, I would recommend you to do the same [or just delete / don't renew the domain / don't park segway ads].

Update: @Ategy.com has updated his auction to offer the winner a 1/12 discount if they are concerned with purchasing segway dot // co. This auction is ending soon.

I noticed the other domains in the auctions have parking links. Except segway // dot // co has this landing page.

upload_2017-11-22_1-33-44.png
 
1
•••
  • The sidebar remains visible by scrolling at a speed relative to the page’s height.
Back