And for the IDN doubting Thomases.

[Rubber Duck]

"Opportunities for Growth" from Versign

Read Section on "Opportunities for Growth" from the Versign's August 2006 Domain Industry Brief:

http://www.verisign.com/static/039111.pdf

 

[Bramiozo]

I gave a full report of this presentation elsewhere.

This not news. IDN TLDs is all that ICANN wants to do. That is their mandate. Whether it be through DNAME or new NS records. Most likely they'll institute both.

However, I don't believe Verisign would allow tons of .com clones to pop up when they can have the whole pie with DNAME.

There is logic and there is politics, ifDNAME is accepted i-idns and equivalent initiatives are directly made redundant while we retain the rights over our idn.idn's.

We still have some things to hope for
- (in progress) jurisprudence in favor of IDN
- (in progress) browser (input) support
- (in progress) full idn support for email
- (uncertain) DNAME

Success still isn't guaranteed.

You have a link Bramiozo?

CK - Washington.   The Chain Hoist ruling confirming the protection of generic domain names in German law is now available.

On March 7, 2006, the Dresden appellate court had decided in the matter 14 U 2293/05 that a chain hoist maker may not demand that another party release the kettenzüge.de domain. It found no infringement under trademark law because the generic and descriptive term for chain hoists, Kettenzüge, does not qualify for a trademark.

In addition, the generic use of the domain name does not constitute a violation of competition law. The unavailability of the domain name to a chain host manufacturer operates merely as an indirect disadvantage on the plaintiff's business. Despite the circumstance that the domain owner offered to sell or lease the domain, the court found no cyber-squatting, domainrecht reports.

http://www.jurablogs.com/meldungen/2005/12/11/28093/
http://jurpc.de/rechtspr/20060089.htm

 

[rhys]

The argument that IDNs will take off as China's economy grows doesn't hold much water. Japan has a strong economy, a non-English speaking population, high levels of usage of their ccTLD, high per capita income, and all sorts of other things that should make it a prime candidate for IDNs. So where are all these IDNs they should be using? Clearly there are other factors holding up the widespread adoption of IDNs.

The main problem with IDNs is that very few applications support them. Oh yes, I know IE7 will change the world! Yeah, right. I'm sorry, but until every major browser, email client, and other Internet application supports IDNs they aren't going to take off. Without a lot of IDNs in use the incentive to add this support to an application is low. Chicken & Egg.

It's likely we'll get there eventually. We'll reach some point of critical mass where they just take off. Hopefully within my lifetime. Hopefully before the DNS system becomes obsolete.

If Chinas economy can continue growing at the current rate for 50 years it will indeed surpass that of the US. Of course by then, all life on earth will have been extinguished by their toxic cloud and the weather forecast for the forbidden city on Christmas day will be a balmy 100 degrees centigrade with a chance of sulphuric acid showers. IDNs won't be worth much of anything then, so lets not count on China's economy to drive IDN values

It's so cute to watch you people try to construct logical arguments with bad information. I'm sitting in Tokyo right now and the friends here I have been speaking to seem to understand exactly how cool it would be to have Japanese language domains so that finally they can remember the URL. They were very surprised to learn that the next IE will support IDNs. Let's couple that with the fact that IE has 95% share globally and that IE7 will be a special security update to all XP users and I think that only an idiot would conclude that IDNs won't grow tremendously in usage. I agree that IDN email would be nice to have, but trust me Japanese business has been hungry for domain names that people can actually remember and spell correctly.

It reminds me of all those people who said that this e-commerce stuff would never work out because people don't want to shop online and non of the infrastructure is there anyway. It's so cute. :hehe:

 

[DNWizardX9]

Kawaii!!!

 

[primacomputer]

Very uneducated on the subject. I will give you a D-........

Have you even read the posts here? IE 6 and below do not support IDN.

Have you? Where did I say it did?

Check overture on alot of the major japanese words with .com afterwards. The word w/ ext is there.

Only .com, not .co.jp? So the Japanese love IDNs but not their ccTLD? Very odd.
Or perhaps there is some other more logical explanation as to how “.com” is being appended to users search queries?
BTW, 日本.com has OVT zero results. So does 日本.co.jp.

As for email, its a "nice to have" but not a "must have" for site developers. Major websites in Asia don't tend to use the email address of the website. There is far too much spam for that.

I can see email being a “nice to have” for certain sites. I have a number of sites where I don't use email on that domain. Only time will tell whether there are enough of these type of sites to reach the critical mass required for wide spread adoption.

It's so cute to watch you people try to construct logical arguments with bad information. I'm sitting in Tokyo right now and the friends here I have been speaking to seem to understand exactly how cool it would be to have Japanese language domains so that finally they can remember the URL. They were very surprised to learn that the next IE will support IDNs. Let's couple that with the fact that IE has 95% share globally and that IE7 will be a special security update to all XP users and I think that only an idiot would conclude that IDNs won't grow tremendously in usage. I agree that IDN email would be nice to have, but trust me Japanese business has been hungry for domain names that people can actually remember and spell correctly.

So if they've been hungry for so long why haven't they eaten them all up long ago? Why are they not even aware that IE7 will support them? Why aren't they aware that a plugin for IE has been available for years?

You're making predictions for an entire nation, the world even, based on “good information” such as where you are “sitting” and what a few of your (uninformed) friends think. At the same time poo pooing “bad information” such as the fact that IDNs have been around for years. Now that's cute!

Just because something is a “good thing” doesn't mean it will take off. Take VOIP for example. I was using it 20 years ago. It was great. It was tried in the mainstream every so often but never really took off. 20 years later Skype comes on the scene and suddenly it's all the rage.

Is that because everyone in the world didn't want free phone calls for the last 20 years? Is it because Skype.com is such a great domain name? Is it because Skype does anything more than countless other previous products have? Of course not. It's because dozens of things all fell into place at the same time. There was no one single cause. It will be the same with IDNs. IDN support in IE is just one of many factors required before IDNs begin to take off.

 

[domainstosell]

You're making predictions for an entire nation, the world even, based on “good information” such as where you are “sitting” and what a few of your (uninformed) friends think. At the same time poo pooing “bad information” such as the fact that IDNs have been around for years. Now that's cute!

Aren't you doing the same thing? Just because you were using VOIP 20 years ago, and now it is all the rage, does that mean that people don't want it? Or that it makes their want for it less valid? You said yourself that "dozens of things fell into place at the right time." Well, how is that any different than what is happening now?

I don't care if you start reg'ing IDNs or not, that's your choice. I'm not going to sit and argue the point of whether having a native-language keyword is better than having ZGJ.in or QDK.us. But you have to admit that there is a common-sense element. I mean, just answer a few key questions:

1. Are there languages other than English in the world?
2. Do the people who speak these other languages use computers and the internet?
3. Do they advertise (i.e. - Do they maintain businesses that spend money)?
4. Are they consumers (i.e. - Do they seek out goods and services online to spend money on)?
5. Would they rather use their own language to navigate the web (the proliferation of native-language sites and ads would suggest yes)?

There could be many more questions added to this list, but it all boils down to taking a less Americentric view of the world, and realizing that the potential for profit is huge.

-- BTW, 日本.com gets 71 OVT w/ext and 164,031 without. It also gets 3,729 US OVT (without ext).

 

[DNWizardX9]

dude you need to check japanese ovt. The .com does get ovt with extension. 日本.com 79

Also choose your battles wisely.. Comparing IDNs vs VOIP...... LOL

Also I have seen some .jp's that have ovt w/ ext

.jp is for general reg by anyone
.co.jp is for companies

 

[Bramiozo]

I think he's right in saying "It will be the same with IDNs. IDN support in IE is just one of many factors required before IDNs begin to take off.", that's the plain and simple truth of the matter.

I think however that these factors are a mere natural development following 8 years (!) of continuous development towards a technology that is so obviously needed to open the web for everyone, regardless of their language.
The general trend is towards globalisation and the internet has been and will be the catalyst for that process, idn fit's perfectly in that trend.

 

[ThaiIDNs]

Have you? Where did I say it did?


Only .com, not .co.jp? So the Japanese love IDNs but not their ccTLD? Very odd.
Or perhaps there is some other more logical explanation as to how “.com” is being appended to users search queries?
BTW, 日本.com has OVT zero results. So does 日本.co.jp.


I can see email being a “nice to have” for certain sites. I have a number of sites where I don't use email on that domain. Only time will tell whether there are enough of these type of sites to reach the critical mass required for wide spread adoption.

So if they've been hungry for so long why haven't they eaten them all up long ago? Why are they not even aware that IE7 will support them? Why aren't they aware that a plugin for IE has been available for years?

You're making predictions for an entire nation, the world even, based on “good information” such as where you are “sitting” and what a few of your (uninformed) friends think. At the same time poo pooing “bad information” such as the fact that IDNs have been around for years. Now that's cute!

Just because something is a “good thing” doesn't mean it will take off. Take VOIP for example. I was using it 20 years ago. It was great. It was tried in the mainstream every so often but never really took off. 20 years later Skype comes on the scene and suddenly it's all the rage.

Is that because everyone in the world didn't want free phone calls for the last 20 years? Is it because Skype.com is such a great domain name? Is it because Skype does anything more than countless other previous products have? Of course not. It's because dozens of things all fell into place at the same time. There was no one single cause. It will be the same with IDNs. IDN support in IE is just one of many factors required before IDNs begin to take off.

1) Email of course will be supported in time. But it isn't even a consideration for Thai site owners in choosing a domain name for a website. For sites that require online support, they use a support form or chat interface.

2) It isn't a question of "need", nobody needs IDNs, just like 20 years ago nobody needed the Internet. Nobody is dying in the streets due to lack of IDNs. But it is a question of what makes the Internet a much better and more efficient place to do business and communicate for the 80%+ of the world that doesn't use English as a first language. It isn't any coincidence that ICANN's "Strategic Plan for 2007-2010" talks almost exclusively about "Internationalization".

http://www.icann.org/announcements/issues-paper-08sep06.htm

IDNs are a big part of that.

3) As for why all the great IDNs haven't been eaten up by locals, well you could say the same thing about "great ASCII domains" in 1997. There were many many still unregistered that are now worth five or six figures. Why weren't they all "eaten up" by Americans? And that was when those domains resolved on 100% of computers worldwide. IDNs in most Asian countries still only resolve on less than 5% of computers. As it happens, many of the best Japanese, Korean, and Thai domains are owned by locals. And they know the value of what they hold, they aren't selling any for less than big money.

General lack of interest from locals could also be related to the total dominance of the English language in the decision making bodies on the Net i.e. ICANN, IETF, DNSO, VeriSign. If they debated and published entirely in Farsi, do you think you would get excited in what they were saying, or even know about it? No, probably not. You would be one of the 99.9% of locals that found out about IDNs after IE7.

Also, if Korean or Chinese or Japanese domainers were buying, selling, and discussing IDNs, do you think you would hear about it. Do you think they would turn up at NamePros IDN section? No, of course not. They have their own forums in their own languages which you are blissfully unaware of. That's the thing about languages you see. People like to talk in their own language, not one of your choosing.

I do agree that IE7 isn't the only thing that is needed to get IDNs becoming accepted in the marketplace. But it seems remarkably logical that going from a state where only 5% of browsers resolve IDNs to potentially 100% is going to the event that will really get the IDN ball rolling. How fast it rolls and how big it gets, we will all find out in the next 12 months.

 

[primacomputer]

Aren't you doing the same thing? Just because you were using VOIP 20 years ago, and now it is all the rage, does that mean that people don't want it? Or that it makes their want for it less valid? You said yourself that "dozens of things fell into place at the right time." Well, how is that any different than what is happening now?

Yes. I'm doing exactly the same thing. I'm saying all the factors needs for widespread use of IDNs isn't here yet, just like they weren't for VOIP. I've only heard one valid factor mentioned here and that's IE7. It is one important step, but it is not “the answer”.

I don't care if you start reg'ing IDNs or not, that's your choice.

Of course you do. For a market to exist there must be a demand. If the demand doesn't exist naturally the best way to create it is by advertising. That's exactly what most of these threads about “the next hot thing” are.

If IDNs were all set to take off people would be quietly registering them by the thousands, not trying to convince others to buy them.

1. Are there languages other than English in the world?
2. Do the people who speak these other languages use computers and the internet?
3. Do they advertise (i.e. - Do they maintain businesses that spend money)?
4. Are they consumers (i.e. - Do they seek out goods and services online to spend money on)?
5. Would they rather use their own language to navigate the web (the proliferation of native-language sites and ads would suggest yes)?

Those are all valid points. My point is that none of those points are new. The Japanese have been speaking Japanese, advertising, consuming, and surfing since day one. We need new driving factors to push the acceptance of IDNs.

Also choose your battles wisely.. Comparing IDNs vs VOIP...... LOL

So please tell us what it should be compared to? Perhaps a domain name related service that only works on 5% of the machines out there such as the massively successful new.net?
LOL all you want. I'll just continue to LATWTTB.

1) Email of course will be supported in time. But it isn't even a consideration for Thai site owners in choosing a domain name for a website. For sites that require online support, they use a support form or chat interface.

That may well be. Perhaps IDNs will take off as a sort of grass roots movement bringing much needed native language URLs to the non-English typing masses, and laughing in the face of corporate non-America for it's continued dependence on antiquated technology such as email. I see this as a very likely path for IDNs to take, which closely mirrors the early growth of consumer use of the Internet.

The problem here is that IDN speculation presents an obstacle to this. Individuals and small organisations who can get by using hotmail instead of mail on their domain name aren't going to have the budget to buy names off speculators, which will stifle growth.

3) As for why all the great IDNs haven't been eaten up by locals, well you could say the same thing about "great ASCII domains" in 1997. There were many many still unregistered that are now worth five or six figures. Why weren't they all "eaten up" by Americans? And that was when those domains resolved on 100% of computers worldwide.

There were a number of factors why all the good names weren't taken by 97. One is price. Layingout out $200k+ in reg fees for the names I have now simply wasn't an option for me (and many others) in 97. In this respect IDNs should be far more attractive as they are the same (low) price as a any A-Z0-9- name.

The other was uncertainty of the market. No one knew exactly where the market was going. In fact in 97 there was already plenty of talk about the dotcom bubble bursting. This same factor is affecting IDNs now.

General lack of interest from locals could also be related to the total dominance of the English language in the decision making bodies on the Net i.e. ICANN, IETF, DNSO, VeriSign. If they debated and published entirely in Farsi, do you think you would get excited in what they were saying, or even know about it? No, probably not. You would be one of the 99.9% of locals that found out about IDNs after IE7.

I don't think that's a fair analogy. The use of English is an artefact of where these technologies were developed, true. But English is used in all sorts of international discussions around the world. I was having a drink at my local a while back and there were 22 different nationalities at the bar. Guess what language we all used to communicate?

I do, however, agree that publishing all these document in a wide range of languages would be a good step in the right direction. Compared to some of the things they waste money on this would be a small sum well spent.

Even if everything was in a language I couldn't read I'd still be aware of IDNs. I was involved with IDNs before the standard was created. I worked with a number of the proposed standards, including some proprietary Asian systems as well as UTF-8 DNS. I supported the latter over punycode precisely because I didn't want to end up where we are today. So I can be pretty confident when I say I'd be aware of IDNs even if all the discussion was in Martian.

Also, if Korean or Chinese or Japanese domainers were buying, selling, and discussing IDNs, do you think you would hear about it. Do you think they would turn up at NamePros IDN section? No, of course not. They have their own forums in their own languages which you are blissfully unaware of. That's the thing about languages you see. People like to talk in their own language, not one of your choosing.

I pop into Chinese forums all the time. There's some very interesting stuff going on in the China name scene, albeit not much IDN related. I've seen a few Chinese around NP. I can't say I've seen them hanging around the IDN section. Probably have their hands full dealing with what's making money now. If they are into IDNS they probably know enough to grab the good ones and sit on them for a few years rather than trying to stir up hype amongst speculators.

I do agree that IE7 isn't the only thing that is needed to get IDNs becoming accepted in the marketplace. But it seems remarkably logical that going from a state where only 5% of browsers resolve IDNs to potentially 100% is going to the event that will really get the IDN ball rolling. How fast it rolls and how big it gets, we will all find out in the next 12 months.

Let's just hope MS manages to get IE7 released within the next twelve months, let alone we see the impact it has on IDNs

 

[ThaiIDNs]

Very interesting about you saying you worked on "some proprietary Asian systems". I tracked them from the beginning. They just served to confuse the marketplace and were always doomed to failure.

As for comparing IDNs to new.net, that is ultimately the worst comparison you could ever wish to bring out into the arena. Because new.net is exactly the same sort of proprietary "alternative root" system that was also always doomed to failure. Anyone can dream up another "new.net" or indeed any other "proprietary DNS system" supported through dodgy plug-ins and bribing ISPs and launch into the marketplace. But they always have failed and always will.

IDNs have taken so long to a large extent because they are a real IETF standard, and that standardization process is extremely long and tedious. But IDNs are succeeding precisely because of it.

It's very interesting you seem to think current registrants are just here to sell domains on to local companies:

"The problem here is that IDN speculation presents an obstacle to this. Individuals and small organisations who can get by using hotmail instead of mail on their domain name aren't going to have the budget to buy names off speculators, which will stifle growth."

Anyone with a brain has been buying generic IDNs that will create income through type-ins and search engine placements, not to sell on. I have personally never come across a search engine that asks whether you have email services active on the keyword you are targetting before giving a high placement. You need to re-think what IDNers are investing in.

You also seem to imply that everyone buying IDNs is somehow investing in a "distant future" where they will start making money. Again, another illusion by someone not active, just watching from the sidelines. IDNs are generating income now. When IE7 is released Q4 (not 12 months time), they will start making alot more money.

I love your comment about Chinese not coming into the IDN forum at NamePros. You are missing the point entirely again. If they were into IDNs, they wouldn't go to NamePros. They come to NamePros because of ASCII domains. NamePros has a tiny section on IDNs, and it is completely in English !! Of course if "random" people from the globe meet in a bar (presumably not in China lol), they will be force to communicate in English. But IDNs are about empowering people to speak to each other in their own language. If you go to a Thai bar in Thailand, people speak Thai. That is the IDN market. Local domains for the local market.

You can sit there and raise objection after objection, and I'm sure you will, but those of us that own quality IDNs already know the true story.

And by the way, if you were using VoIP 20 years ago i.e 1986, that's really amazing

 

[DNWizardX9]

And by the way, if you were using VoIP 20 years ago i.e 1986, that's really amazing

LOL yep good comment for him...........


anyways idnclub.com has alot of Chinese IDN sales. The forum is in chinese. I've also seen a large KOrean IDN forum on naver.com which is a major portal in Korea. Check every korean IDN. Pretty much each one of them was regged in 2000-2001 by people living in Korea. There are also a large number of Chinese IDNs that were regged years ago by ppl in China. Theres no point to post the domains here. You can whois some of the domains in those languages or others and find out for yourself.

Again you're comparing two nonrelated things. New.net released propietary extensions not supported by ICANN. They were meant for the english language. IDNs are necessary. They aren't going to need a plugin. IE 7 final is weeks away from release. Windows VISTA is also coming out soon. It is going to be a critical update that people's pc's get updated with IE 7.

Also many people already own a few thousand IDNs. Some of the top ppl on the IDN related forum (Not namepros) are from China and Japan surprisingly. Yep all it takes is a few seconds of observation and research to prove everything you said is just silly and baseless. Good luck with your .mobi's. All the top .mobi's are going to go the ways the top .eu's. They will be in the hands of the bertulux "TM" holders and corporates. The real investment right now is in IDNs which are .com's etc.

 

[domainstosell]

Yes. I'm doing exactly the same thing. I'm saying all the factors needs for widespread use of IDNs isn't here yet, just like they weren't for VOIP. I've only heard one valid factor mentioned here and that's IE7. It is one important step, but it is not “the answer”.

No, I mean "you are making predictions for an entire nation, the world even," based on your scope of experience. If you have only heard one valid factor mentioned here, then I would contend that you are not really listening. Many other factors are coming to fruition, including:

• IE7 and other browsers' support of IDNs
• The continued establishment and growth of a secondary market (an IDN aftermarket)
• Development of IDNs by various companies, and the purchase of IDNs by large companies and corporations (Wal-Mart, Ikea, Nestlé, etc.)
• Native traffic to IDNs, and revenue generated by IDNs
• The establishment of various forums and sites dedicated to IDNs (and with an international accessability)

This is happening now, and helping "dozens of things [fall] into place at the right time," as you said.

Of course you do. For a market to exist there must be a demand. If the demand doesn't exist naturally the best way to create it is by advertising. That's exactly what most of these threads about “the next hot thing” are.

No, I really don't. The market exists whether you invest in IDNs or not. While I will sell domains to fund projects, etc., I invested in IDNs primarily because of the overwhelming opportunity to own outstanding generic terms in a wide variety of languages. Terms that will draw natural traffic and make money. So many domainers have a buy/sell mindset. You must realize that with highly-searched for, generic terms, the traffic that can be generated is priceless.

If IDNs were all set to take off people would be quietly registering them by the thousands, not trying to convince others to buy them.

That has already happened. You missed it.

Those are all valid points. My point is that none of those points are new. The Japanese have been speaking Japanese, advertising, consuming, and surfing since day one. We need new driving factors to push the acceptance of IDNs.

Thank you. But, that is the point about IDNs: While the Japanese have been "speaking Japanese, advertising, consuming and surfing since day one," they have never had a choice but to do it on URLs that are in a different language. Many domainers may still not even be aware that there are different OVT tools for a wide variety of languages! If you look at Google Trends or use other comparison tools, it is plainly obvious that internet users in other countries (or who speak a native language other than English), prefer to search for and view content in their own language. Why would this be different when it comes to the URLs they are using to navigate to this content?

 

[DNWizardX9]

I would like to mention TDC (ITSYOURDOMAIN registrar) owns 30,000 IDNs. Register.com also owns many IDNs for themselves.

JPRS just announced on their site that they are finally distributing the city .jp's and other reserved .jp's to their respective government bodies (in japanese characters). IDN .com and .jp should be hot in Japan.

 

[rhys]

So if they've been hungry for so long why haven't they eaten them all up long ago? Why are they not even aware that IE7 will support them? Why aren't they aware that a plugin for IE has been available for years?

You're making predictions for an entire nation, the world even, based on “good information” such as where you are “sitting” and what a few of your (uninformed) friends think. At the same time poo pooing “bad information” such as the fact that IDNs have been around for years. Now that's cute!

Just because something is a “good thing” doesn't mean it will take off. Take VOIP for example. I was using it 20 years ago. It was great. It was tried in the mainstream every so often but never really took off. 20 years later Skype comes on the scene and suddenly it's all the rage.

Is that because everyone in the world didn't want free phone calls for the last 20 years? Is it because Skype.com is such a great domain name? Is it because Skype does anything more than countless other previous products have? Of course not. It's because dozens of things all fell into place at the same time. There was no one single cause. It will be the same with IDNs. IDN support in IE is just one of many factors required before IDNs begin to take off.

Cute!!!! Why are they not aware of IDNs? Well Iraq didn't have WMDs afterall and why don't most Americans know that? People don't know what hasn't been told to them. Maybe Fox News is planning to tell people at some point. Back to IDN - Japanese will learn of IDNs more when companies start using them, companies start using them when IE7 has strong penetration. Why? Because the typical Japanese doesn't enjoy speaking or trying to spell our dumb-ass "international language of business".

Please point out the exact place where I "poo poo" the fact that IDNs have been around for years. I never have. Do you feel some need to make up my words for me because my actual words don't give you enough ammunition? Let's have a little more consideration for what people actually say shall we instead of trying to make stuff up.

IDN's have been around in testbed and out for years that's true but without browser support from IE - it is a worthless technology and you know that. Plug-ins please - be real! If you don't understand the importance of IE7 support you are merely slow, if you did know that - I'd think that this shows you are more interested in getting flamed then seriously discussing the prospect for IDNs to be adopted. So I know you have no reason to believe that I know anything the ordinary guy on the street wouldn't know so it is ok if you mock "where I sit". But where do I sit? and what do I know that would allow me to comment on IE 7. Perhaps I sit in Redmond? Perhaps I sit at?

Anyway, if you check whois you will see that most worthwhile single word domains are already registered. In .com/.net many are non-Japanese because of the price and .com is what they gravitate towards. In .jp primarily they are regged by a wide variety of Japanese companies and Japanese (by last name anyway) individuals. I suppose they must be like myself uninformed and surrounded by ignorant friends! Cute! It's ok if you think so.

IDNs may never take off - the possibility exists - but I'd bet my 401K that it will. Perhaps I already have....

 

[primacomputer]

IDNs have taken so long to a large extent because they are a real IETF standard, and that standardization process is extremely long and tedious. But IDNs are succeeding precisely because of it.

Long and tedious, you got that right. Actually, IDNs will succeed eventually despite the long and tedious standardization and the fundamental flaw in choosing a client side solution instead of making it a DNS solution. It will just take a long and tedious time.

It's very interesting you seem to think current registrants are just here to sell domains on to local companies:

"The problem here is that IDN speculation presents an obstacle to this. Individuals and small organisations who can get by using hotmail instead of mail on their domain name aren't going to have the budget to buy names off speculators, which will stifle growth."

Anyone with a brain has been buying generic IDNs that will create income through type-ins and search engine placements, not to sell on. I have personally never come across a search engine that asks whether you have email services active on the keyword you are targetting before giving a high placement. You need to re-think what IDNers are investing in.

No. I'm well aware that most people are looking to just park them. My point about this being an obstacle to IDN adoption is even more valid in this context.

You also seem to imply that everyone buying IDNs is somehow investing in a "distant future" where they will start making money. Again, another illusion by someone not active, just watching from the sidelines. IDNs are generating income now. When IE7 is released Q4 (not 12 months time), they will start making alot more money.

Well I guess we'll just have to wait and see won't we. Just like we've had to do every year for the last 10 years. Don't worry. One of these days you IDN touters are going to turn out to be right. If only through the sheer statistical impossibility of always being wrong.

I love your comment about Chinese not coming into the IDN forum at NamePros. You are missing the point entirely again. If they were into IDNs, they wouldn't go to NamePros.

Dude. There are Chinese here. Trust me. I don't know what you think about the Chinese, but they aren't nearly as uneducated as you make them out to be. I've got a lot of Chinese friends and they all speak excellent English. They can even use English to type URLs (gasp).

Of course if "random" people from the globe meet in a bar (presumably not in China lol), they will be force to communicate in English.

Of course it was in China, and a number of the non-Chinese spoke passable Chinese. But as a common courtesy everyone communicated in the language people were in common most proficient with. English.

But IDNs are about empowering people to speak to each other in their own language.

Respect. Keep fighting the good fight. It was the complete disinterest in addressing the international needs of the Internet of NSI et all in that got me interested in IDNs 10 years ago. Having a level playing field is why I supported unicode DNS instead of the client side kluge that was adopted IDNs will be an important step towards towards making the Internet more accessible to the disadvantaged.

Now run out and **** over your oppressed brothers by taking all their good names and filling them with banner farms!

If you go to a Thai bar in Thailand, people speak Thai. That is the IDN market. Local domains for the local market.

Clearly, we hang out at different Thai bars.
I like the idea of local language URLs for local markets. I think as long as people accept them as just that then you'll do fine. But if your looking to make serious money of PPC or speculation you've got a while to go.

And by the way, if you were using VoIP 20 years ago i.e 1986, that's really amazing

It sure is! Back then. You couldn't just go out and buy a Skype phone to plug in to your USB port. We didn't even have USB. The original 8 bit sound blaster card was 5 years away. We plugged AD and DA converters in the paralel ports of a PC to digitize and reproduce sound. And the Internet was in no way ubituitous back then. I had to create bridges through half a dozen networks, x.25, TCP/IP, and whatever else we ran into. And of course everyone didn't have 10MB lines into their home like today. And we even didn't have the compression algorithms we have today that would have required a main frame to encode back then. We were encoding as fibonacci delta and stuffing it down a 64kb line.

Yes. Truly amazing, but not as amazing as the fact that something so useful took decades to catch on in the main stream.

Again you're comparing two nonrelated things.

Just waiting for you to tell me what I should be comparing. Or is there nothing to compare IDNs to but sliced bread?

Also many people already own a few thousand IDNs. Some of the top ppl on the IDN related forum (Not namepros) are from China and Japan surprisingly. Yep all it takes is a few seconds of observation and research to prove everything you said is just silly and baseless.

Please note. For the record. I do not dispute that there are hundreds of thousands of IDN .coms registered by speculators. I dispute whether this has any (positive) bearing whatsoever on wide spread adoption of these names, in particular their actual use.

Good luck with your .mobi's. All the top .mobi's are going to go the ways the top .eu's. They will be in the hands of the bertulux "TM" holders and corporates. The real investment right now is in IDNs which are .com's etc.

I want some of what you're smoking! How did you know I had so many mobis? You must be a psychic!

Many other factors are coming to fruition, including:

[*]The continued establishment and growth of a secondary market (an IDN aftermarket)

Why doesn't this need to be continually established? Usually something is established once and that's it. Let's say its in the process of being (seriously) established, and once it is it may be a driving factor.

[*]Development of IDNs by various companies, and the purchase of IDNs by large companies and corporations (Wal-Mart, Ikea, Nestlé, etc.)

A valid point, although I think this is more of an indicator of than a factor. We need this happening on a much wider scale before we see much of an effect from it.

[*]Native traffic to IDNs, and revenue generated by IDNs

This is probably the only real factor in play at this time. I'm amazed by the amount of traffic and revenue I've received with Chinese names. But I know how “well” this traffic converts, so I'm not making any long term bets on how long people will continue to pay money for nothing.

[*]The establishment of various forums and sites dedicated to IDNs (and with an international accessability)

This is certainly a factor in the widespread adoption of IDNs amongst the crowd who missed out on the last “great thing”. I don't see that it has much to do with growing the usage of IDNs. In fact, as I've said before, nearly everything speculators do will have an adverse affect on the name space by turning it into a giant billboard.

That has already happened. You missed it.

OIC. So where were they all registered then? ccTLDs I suppose, because there's only a few hundred thousand .coms registered. And before anyone says “that's a lot”, bear in mind that's for every supported language.

Thank you. But, that is the point about IDNs: While the Japanese have been "speaking Japanese, advertising, consuming and surfing since day one," they have never had a choice but to do it on URLs that are in a different language.

They have never has a chance? So there have never been Japanese IDNs? WTF? You can register them tonnes of places and have been able to for some time.

If you look at Google Trends or use other comparison tools, it is plainly obvious that internet users in other countries (or who speak a native language other than English), prefer to search for and view content in their own language. Why would this be different when it comes to the URLs they are using to navigate to this content?

I may spend 5-10 minutes reading a page and 0-1 second looking at the URL. Do you prefer a yellow or red umbrella in your cocktail.

Really. I appreciate the SEO value of the names, and I appreciate that some people are fiercely nationalistic about them. But you need most people to want them. Preferring them isn't enough.

 

[DNWizardX9]

...........

Alot of people plan to develop their IDN's but are doing one name at a time.

parking pages huh? seems familiar to those with .eu domains and soon to be .mobi names.

 

[domainstosell]

This is certainly a factor in the widespread adoption of IDNs amongst the crowd who missed out on the last “great thing”. I don't see that it has much to do with growing the usage of IDNs. In fact, as I've said before, nearly everything speculators do will have an adverse affect on the name space by turning it into a giant billboard.

They have never has a chance? So there have never been Japanese IDNs? WTF? You can register them tonnes of places and have been able to for some time.

Are you just being intentionally obtuse and argumentative? First, while you've been able to register Japanese (and other language) IDNs for some time now, the point is that the support to use them has not been in place. It was an oversight and afterthought by an Americentric system.

Second, please stop acting like you are above parking pages, or that ASCII domainers haven't given online marketing a black eye with made-for-adsense super-parkers like iReit, etc. You've never used a parking service to monetize names or turn pages into a "giant billboard?" Like PinkTees.com? Or ifcmall.com?

I may spend 5-10 minutes reading a page and 0-1 second looking at the URL. Do you prefer a yellow or red umbrella in your cocktail.

I don't think you actually believe that. You must be lying to try to make a point. Either that, or you really do believe that, in which case you are in the wrong business. A strong URL can be a huge boon to a company, and can have a huge impact on thier corporate identity. You should check out a site called MarketEvolver.com, they have a lot of info on building strong marketing, brand and corporate identity awareness. Surely they know the value of a strong domain name; one that customers can connect with and retain.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Well done guys. Keep trying. Frankly, I tired of wasting time arguing with guys that can only see the world from their own distorted perspective.

 

[ThaiIDNs]

Well done guys. Keep trying. Frankly, I tired of wasting time arguing with guys that can only see the world from their own distorted perspective.

Seems this guy is annoyed his own IDN solution wasn't adopted and refuses to accept any other reality.

I love the description of what it took him and his mates to get his VoIP solution going:

It sure is! Back then. You couldn't just go out and buy a Skype phone to plug in to your USB port. We didn't even have USB. The original 8 bit sound blaster card was 5 years away. We plugged AD and DA converters in the paralel ports of a PC to digitize and reproduce sound. And the Internet was in no way ubituitous back then. I had to create bridges through half a dozen networks, x.25, TCP/IP, and whatever else we ran into. And of course everyone didn't have 10MB lines into their home like today. And we even didn't have the compression algorithms we have today that would have required a main frame to encode back then. We were encoding as fibonacci delta and stuffing it down a 64kb line.

Yes. Truly amazing, but not as amazing as the fact that something so useful took decades to catch on in the main stream.

It's a real suprise that solution didn't take off in 1986, lol.

I'm leaving this "argument" because I don't like where it is going. Primacomputer appears to believe that Thais shouldn't speak Thai in Thai bars because it isn't "polite", and that this "foreign language on the Net" thing isn't really needed because all his friends speak English, how very neo-colonial of him. At least we got to the root of his position eventually, which appears to be the same root as all the other doubters i.e. "those foreigners should learn to speak English properly".

 

[Bramiozo]

I can distill the following from your reply ;

- you imply idn-supporters merely hope for broad support among internet users whilst the contrary seems to be true.
- you imply that the aftermarket itself takes away the momentum needed to start user awareness and appreciation

For the first "statement" I see nothing conclusive, because, as has been pointed out, there is no final user support, there is no or very little jurisprudence and there is no security as to the final form of the idn-extension, so quite logically there are no endusers.
The reasonable arguments for companies to hold back are disintegrating slowly but surely and users are made aware of idn, slowly but surely.

There is a firm basis for your second point of view, however I detect a slight irrational and somewhat socialistic point of view with regard to the "poor" people who see that there names have been registered. We're dealing with companies here, not with individuals, so it's not in the ownership but in the usage of the name, the user is annowed by yet another page with ads.
I totally agree if you say that the (huge amount of) parking pages are detrimental to the value of domains and are in fact detrimental to the usefullness of domains in general, the best example I can think of is sex.net where you see a parking page with non-relevant ads.

Development is key and will remain key to capitalize on our investments, for the sake of our wallets and for the sake of idn.

Long and tedious, you got that right. Actually, IDNs will succeed eventually despite the long and tedious standardization and the fundamental flaw in choosing a client side solution instead of making it a DNS solution. It will just take a long and tedious time.

No. I'm well aware that most people are looking to just park them. My point about this being an obstacle to IDN adoption is even more valid in this context.

Well I guess we'll just have to wait and see won't we. Just like we've had to do every year for the last 10 years. Don't worry. One of these days you IDN touters are going to turn out to be right. If only through the sheer statistical impossibility of always being wrong.

Dude. There are Chinese here. Trust me. I don't know what you think about the Chinese, but they aren't nearly as uneducated as you make them out to be. I've got a lot of Chinese friends and they all speak excellent English. They can even use English to type URLs (gasp).

Of course it was in China, and a number of the non-Chinese spoke passable Chinese. But as a common courtesy everyone communicated in the language people were in common most proficient with. English.

Respect. Keep fighting the good fight. It was the complete disinterest in addressing the international needs of the Internet of NSI et all in that got me interested in IDNs 10 years ago. Having a level playing field is why I supported unicode DNS instead of the client side kluge that was adopted IDNs will be an important step towards towards making the Internet more accessible to the disadvantaged.

Now run out and **** over your oppressed brothers by taking all their good names and filling them with banner farms!

Clearly, we hang out at different Thai bars.
I like the idea of local language URLs for local markets. I think as long as people accept them as just that then you'll do fine. But if your looking to make serious money of PPC or speculation you've got a while to go.

It sure is! Back then. You couldn't just go out and buy a Skype phone to plug in to your USB port. We didn't even have USB. The original 8 bit sound blaster card was 5 years away. We plugged AD and DA converters in the paralel ports of a PC to digitize and reproduce sound. And the Internet was in no way ubituitous back then. I had to create bridges through half a dozen networks, x.25, TCP/IP, and whatever else we ran into. And of course everyone didn't have 10MB lines into their home like today. And we even didn't have the compression algorithms we have today that would have required a main frame to encode back then. We were encoding as fibonacci delta and stuffing it down a 64kb line.

Yes. Truly amazing, but not as amazing as the fact that something so useful took decades to catch on in the main stream.

Just waiting for you to tell me what I should be comparing. Or is there nothing to compare IDNs to but sliced bread?

Please note. For the record. I do not dispute that there are hundreds of thousands of IDN .coms registered by speculators. I dispute whether this has any (positive) bearing whatsoever on wide spread adoption of these names, in particular their actual use.

I want some of what you're smoking! How did you know I had so many mobis? You must be a psychic!

Many other factors are coming to fruition, including:

Why doesn't this need to be continually established? Usually something is established once and that's it. Let's say its in the process of being (seriously) established, and once it is it may be a driving factor.

A valid point, although I think this is more of an indicator of than a factor. We need this happening on a much wider scale before we see much of an effect from it.

This is probably the only real factor in play at this time. I'm amazed by the amount of traffic and revenue I've received with Chinese names. But I know how “well” this traffic converts, so I'm not making any long term bets on how long people will continue to pay money for nothing.

This is certainly a factor in the widespread adoption of IDNs amongst the crowd who missed out on the last “great thing”. I don't see that it has much to do with growing the usage of IDNs. In fact, as I've said before, nearly everything speculators do will have an adverse affect on the name space by turning it into a giant billboard.

OIC. So where were they all registered then? ccTLDs I suppose, because there's only a few hundred thousand .coms registered. And before anyone says “that's a lot”, bear in mind that's for every supported language.

They have never has a chance? So there have never been Japanese IDNs? WTF? You can register them tonnes of places and have been able to for some time.


I may spend 5-10 minutes reading a page and 0-1 second looking at the URL. Do you prefer a yellow or red umbrella in your cocktail.

Really. I appreciate the SEO value of the names, and I appreciate that some people are fiercely nationalistic about them. But you need most people to want them. Preferring them isn't enough.