Why LLL.coms are no longer "safe" bets

fonzie_007 · Feb 24, 2008

I do not consider LLL.com "risk free" bets anymore. While LLL.coms used to be a great way to flip a domain and make a pretty penny, that is increasingly no longer the case due to the increased risk. Now, there is greater risk putting large sums of money into a domain that could quite easily be taken from you in a UDRP. While 3L domains used to be sacred (e.g. assuming the registrant wasn't stupid, no one would be able to take the domain from him/her in a UDRP process). However, the sad fact is that WIPO and NAF have increasingly been willing to allow 3L domains to be taken away from the registrant.

This being said, anytime you have an asking price >$1,300 for a domain that could be subject to a UDRP, you are running a real risk of losing your domain. And yes, just about any LLL domain could be subject to a UDRP (due to the fact lots of businesses have three letter acronyms).

Put simply, why pay $8k+ for a LLL.com (or ~$1k for a LLL.net) right now when:

(1) the revenue/traffic on the domains are generally poor;
(2) any end user could spend $1,300 plus some attorneys fees and possibly take the domain from you in an UDRP; and
(3) the amount of domainers able/willing to purchase the domain back from you is a relatively small amount of people.

Better bets in the LLL marketspace are .orgs, .us, .biz, .info, and .mobis. Because these LLL domains are lower priced, even if you are faced with a person threatening a UDRP, it will be cheaper for the person to buy the domain from you than go to UDRP (and you, as the seller, will still be able to make a return selling the domain).

In other words, if you spend $150 on a LLL domain and someone threatens a UDRP, you can offer to sell the domain for anything under ~$1,500 and the person threatening the action probably will just buy the domain from you.

NOTE: Nothing in this post is meant to be supportive of cybersquatting or using domains to infringe on a third party's intelluctual property.

italiandragon · Feb 24, 2008

fonzie_007 said:
I do not consider LLL.com "risk free" bets anymore. While LLL.coms used to be a great way to flip a domain and make a pretty penny, that is increasingly no longer the case due to the increased risk. Now, there is greater risk putting large sums of money into a domain that could quite easily be taken from you in a UDRP. While 3L domains used to be sacred (e.g. assuming the registrant wasn't stupid, no one would be able to take the domain from him/her in a UDRP process). However, the sad fact is that WIPO and NAF have increasingly been willing to allow 3L domains to be taken away from the registrant.

This being said, anytime you have an asking price >$1,300 for a domain that could be subject to a UDRP, you are running a real risk of losing your domain. And yes, just about any LLL domain could be subject to a UDRP (due to the fact lots of businesses have three letter acronyms).

Put simply, why pay $8k+ for a LLL.com (or ~$1k for a LLL.net) right now when:

(1) the revenue/traffic on the domains are generally poor;
(2) any end user could spend $1,300 plus some attorneys fees and possibly take the domain from you in an UDRP; and
(3) the amount of domainers able/willing to purchase the domain back from you is a relatively small amount of people.

Better bets in the LLL marketspace are .orgs, .us, .biz, .info, and .mobis. Because these LLL domains are lower priced, even if you are faced with a person threatening a UDRP, it will be cheaper for the person to buy the domain from you than go to UDRP (and you, as the seller, will still be able to make a return selling the domain).

In other words, if you spend $150 on a LLL domain and someone threatens a UDRP, you can offer to sell the domain for anything under ~$1,500 and the person threatening the action probably will just buy the domain from you.

NOTE: Nothing in this post is meant to be supportive of cybersquatting or using domains to infringe on a third party's intelluctual property.

orgs : no one really is going to pay much for a LLL.org

.us : this is a dead horse and not even americans know about it

.biz: this is pure rubbish

.info: it is undervalued but it`s extremely hard that companies would choose a 3 letter acronym unless it`s a word, it much much more possibly that they choose a brandable sounding CVCV.info rather than FDG.info or SCR.info

and .mobis. : :bah: , I got a load of them and no one cares about them.

So, regarding the UDRP, if you are not doing stupid things, you should be fine.

fonzie_007 · Feb 24, 2008

italiandragon said:
So, regarding the UDRP, if you are not doing stupid things, you should be fine.

Try doing some research on LLL.com UDRPs. Once you have done that, then reconsider whether your comment holds true.

Notwithstanding that fact, are you willing to take an $8k+ gamble and have your domain taken from you with NO compensation?

I'll even get you started... Try looking at AVG.com, a seemingly "generic" domain.

PS I have received a C&D letter on a .biz domain (even though I was not infringing). The company was serious about going to UDRP, but the point was moot because I already had sold the domain.

tdm300 · Feb 24, 2008

What happened to avg? It leads to that antivirus program.

fonzie_007 · Feb 24, 2008

See here: http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/case.jsp?case=D2006-1381

-NC- · Feb 24, 2008

But in the case of AVG.COM, the respondent was parking it and gaining revenue from clicks on links advertising Grisoft AVG.

Is the lesson, don't park your high value names at all?

sdtrader · Feb 24, 2008

I couldn't agree with you more on this. Something I have been thinking myself for some time but with other reasons than just UDRP such as their generally weak income producing qualities. If I was spending that much on a domain I would lean towards something with some daily income.

johntv · Feb 24, 2008

-NC- said:
But in the case of AVG.COM, the respondent was parking it and gaining revenue from clicks on links advertising Grisoft AVG.

Is the lesson, don't park your high value names at all?

Nice thread fonzie. Yes, I agree and think it's better to 'unpark' any valuable, non generic, names. I have 6 LLL.com's and have all set up a simple page with no ads, like zaq .com for example, just to be sure. I did the same thing with many LLLL.com's which I consider having some value for possible end users. Traffic is low anyway, so it's no real loss.

It's silly to do, but better to be safe then sorry I guess.

fonzie_007 · Feb 24, 2008

-NC- said:
But in the case of AVG.COM, the respondent was parking it and gaining revenue from clicks on links advertising Grisoft AVG.

Is the lesson, don't park your high value names at all?

Yes, the registrant of AVG.com did not do the smartest thing in the world. Nonetheless, to be safe, you will need to develop a site with some original content that is more than just a mini-site. Arbitrators still seems wililng to revoke domains from individuals who have developed site, albeit in a minimal way. And yes, you need to make at least semi-frequent updates on the site.

snoop · Feb 24, 2008

fonzie_007 said:
I'll even get you started... Try looking at AVG.com, a seemingly "generic" domain.

Seemingly generic? The owner would have known full well that they were holding/buying with that name. And if things have now changed all of a sudden why is your example from 2006?

The owner didn't need to "develop a site with some original content that is more than just a mini-site" to be safe, he just needed to run it on a generic, non infringing park page.

malcolm321 · Feb 25, 2008

I think that this scenario is rare, but you raise some interesting points.

Derek

gingeman · Feb 25, 2008

haha, made me laugh a little this- got a few $$$ invested in LLL.info's, .orgs and .us' fonzie?

I see your point but I can't agree that LLL.com are higher risk than .us .biz and .info's as these extensions just have no real meaning to many outside of domaining yet, so I don't think they are well enough established to be a risk free investment. I think .orgs have some end-user potential so maybe worth a punt, but .com is king for a reason. The number of LLL.com lost to a UDRP is very very few, and pretty much always due to the name being parked with the claimants ads showing up.

Kate · Feb 25, 2008

-NC- said:
Is the lesson, don't park your high value names at all?

Maybe. Parking is not without risks as you have no control over the advertising feed. A single TM/competing link is enough to establish bad faith even though parking is a legitimate activity per se.

1john2004 · Feb 25, 2008

malcolm321 said:
I think that this scenario is rare, but you raise some interesting points.

Derek

Agreed!

fonzie_007 · Feb 25, 2008

I've got record of approximately 67 LLL domains that have been taken away from UDRP (and I do not believe this list is comprehensive).

It depends how you define "rare". Once someone brings an UDRP against you, the Complainant has an overwhelming opportunity to take the domain from you (If I recall the figure correctly, it was over 90%--for LLL domains, it is probably lower than this). Of course, just having a UDRP lodged against you usually takes one or two things:

(1) some bad conduct on your behalf, and
(2) an (over)zealous Complainant.

And to answer the question above regarding my portfolio. I practice what I preach (to a certain extent). I only have investments in about half of those extensions that I would recommend in lieu of .com/.nets.

I could care less about how others are investing, but after weighing the cost-benefit analysis of investing $8k+ in a domain that could be taken away from me, I've decided the investment is riskier than I would like. Put simply, anytime you have an asking price significantly above the cost for a UDRP, you are gambling that the individual seeking the domain doesn't get bring a UDRP.

For instance, consider a situation where a domainer has a firm asking price of $25K on a LLL domain that another person wants. The domain happens to be the acronym of the person's business. There is no registered trademark, but the company has been in existence before the domain was registered and has been commonly known by the acronym. The domainer has used the domain as a one-page information minisite. In this situation, the person probably may consider bringing a UDRP because the cost of the UDRP (~$5k after costs and fees assuming an attorney is involved) is substantially cheaper than purchasing the domain for $25k. The person is obviously gambling by bringing a UDRP as the outcome of the UDRP are not certain, but the fact is that panelists are usually inclined grant relief in favor of Complainants.

PS To answer an earlier question, I only have investments in about half of those extensions that I recommended above, so this thread is not meant to be self-serving.

-REECE- · Feb 25, 2008

Only an absolute newbie would lose an LLL.com in a UDRP unless they're really out of luck and end up with a horribly biased panelist...

Simple as this:

1. Don't park it (LLL.us, .org, etc make zero parked anyway, so not really a downside if we're comparing here)

2. Develop it. You're sitting on a $7000+ domain here, treat it with the respect it deserves! I'm in the process of developing my 2 LLL.coms and not just because it insulates me from potential UDRPs ("legitimate use"), but also because it allows me to profit from my investments, which is why we all invest now isn't it?

3. Don't be stupid enough to go and make it obvious you registered (and/or are using) the name in bad faith... "Hello Ryerson International, I am writing to you because I own RYI dotcom and was wondering if you'd be interested in making an offer on this domain name which I noticed happens to be your stock ticker. <<< NO NO NO NO NO >>> So yes, a bit of a disadvantage there because you could probably get away with (eg. not worth paying the UDRP over) making that same email and getting a few sales that way with the .net, .org, .etc.

I prefer LLLL.coms to LLL.coms for the main reason that I can solicit offers with no risk of repercussions, however LLL.coms do have their place in my portfolio and should have a place in any serious domain name investors portfolio, imho. We can say what we want about LLL.us, LLL.org, LLL.net, etc but the bottom line is that when shit hits the fan, an LLL.com is there, ready to be cashed in almost immediately at 100% market value... Try falling on tough times with a portfolio of LLL.net, LLL.org, LLL.us, etc and I think you'll realize the very important role LLL.coms play in this market.

Kate · Feb 25, 2008

fonzie_007 said:
I've got record of approximately 67 LLL domains that have been taken away from UDRP (and I do not believe this list is comprehensive).

Each UDRP is different so we need to look at the circumstances.
But I would not be surprised the issue is parking-related most of the time. And it's not just LLL.com that are subject to claims...

italiandragon · Feb 25, 2008

fonzie: if you park a domain regardless if it`s a LLL or not , you are at risk of losing it anytime if there is a TM on it , I already covered this "new trend" in my Blog a month ago.

This is nothing new and the same would happen to LLL.org/info or .us so your point is dismissed.

It seems rather than you are disapponted by the LLL.us performance but by bashing the .com I don`t think you are going to get anywhere for LLL.us

Mark · Feb 25, 2008

There is risk with Every domain you Register or Purchase IMO - If you spend more , of course there is more risk. Developed sites where you control 100% of the content and any ads does Reduce the risk.

netklick · Feb 25, 2008

Mark said:
There is risk with Every domain you Register or Purchase IMO - If you spend more , of course there is more risk. Developed sites where you control 100% of the content and any ads does Reduce the risk.

Good point. Parking is a waste of time and only adds risk to your portfolio. For this I have developed a custom content site for all my LLLL dot coms. I am making more money and my domain is safe.

rudyhernandez · Feb 25, 2008

Reece said:
I prefer LLLL.coms to LLL.coms for the main reason that I can solicit offers with no risk of repercussions, however LLL.coms do have their place in my portfolio and should have a place in any serious domain name investors portfolio, imho.

Agreed.
Good thread.
:gl:

Andrei P. · Feb 25, 2008

Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

-NC- · Feb 25, 2008

italiandragon said:
This is nothing new and the same would happen to LLL.org/info or .us so your point is dismissed.

It seems rather than you are disapponted by the LLL.us performance but by bashing the .com I don`t think you are going to get anywhere for LLL.us

I think you're missing a critical point that fonzie is making.
- LLL.com is now so valuable that it makes more financial sense to go for UDRP.
- LLL.org/us is not as valuable, so making an offer to purchase makes more financial sense than the UDRP route.

-REECE- · Feb 25, 2008

You're right Ergo. But at the same time, a motivated enduser likely won't "go fishing" with you if they see you already have a serious online presence.

As for your first question, yes you can lose a pure acronym domain if it's parked and a trademark is registered on that name afterwards.

As for question #2, domains registered solely to profit off redirects can be seen as "bad faith" (eg. not putting the domain to good use). A simple page with links (as you've suggested) could lose if the complainant starts bringing up facts about you being a domainer, brings up evidence that you have a track record of registering domains in bad faith, or have similar names setup with this identical parked page.

All in all, alot of it really depends on who you get for a panelist... Some of them would likely side with the complainant if they merely found out you were a member of a domaining board and that the name wasn't developed. In the case of a valuable name, I'd always recommend going with 3 panelists.

Ergo said:
Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

netklick · Feb 25, 2008

Ergo said:
Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

When I said develop the domains, I didn't mean make 1000s of unique sites. Will never get it done that way.

I think I am doing exactly what you were saying - developing neutral contents. The site I've developed and tested so far is sqsv.com which now I am in the process of migrating to all my LLLL dot coms (example - blxo.com, auqs.com, fqxd.com, etc). Once completed, I will have more than 500 sites with similar contents and it will look like Parked pages but it is my site. Users can sign up and submit content and it will become a network of over 500 sites and possibly more. I am hopeful this will work out for me.

I did spend some time making the first site (sqsv), but now it is easy to migrate to other domain names. Also Google has so far indexed over 9000 pages from SQSV, which is a great news and it is getting ton of traffic today than it would have with parked pages.

Why LLL.coms are no longer "safe" bets

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