REPRESENTATION: The attack on IDNs.

[QUAD DOMAINS]

🗣 This thread is dedicated to our fellow investors and forum members who are bilingual and/or value the power of language both online and offline. We’re talking about those who respect culture, history, inclusiveness and diverse representation in the digital age.

In a perfect world, everyone would be an extension of the aforementioned; but we’re all aware the real-world is NOT perfect. Much of humanity’s not-so-flattering nature is conveyed through bias, discrimination and hatred. All of which are prevalent in domain investing too.

An obvious indicator that bias, discrimination and hatred exist in the domain space can be spotted in the overarching disdain many investors have for IDNs. (International Domain Names). Some go to EXTREME lengths to convince others IDNs have no place online.

In fact, they do. They exist right?!

IDNs are names that support the ability to connect with others in more languages than English. They type and resolve just like their standard counterparts; but have the unique ability to resolve in two ways instead of one. In essence, they’re equipped with dual-resolution.

It’s disheartening to see domain investors shame IDN purchases and use; while clearly being aware English isn’t the only language in existence. It’s something unethical about the company with a Spanish name being led to believe an English domain is their only option.

️ Granted, the origins of language eradication throughout history go a lot deeper than the domain space. However, this thread is meant to acknowledge the various languages that exist; while reiterating that representation, without shame, in domain investing is well overdue.

May the centralized domain space do better.

As usual, The Downvote Gang will likely come out swinging; and the mods might even move this thread to an obscure part of the platform for whatever reason. Nevertheless, the truth expressed here will be valid regardless. It should be considered a nod to the opportunity for us all to progress forward……TOGETHER.

QUAD Domains

 

[JB Lions]

It has nothing to with culture, it’s about business, sales, simplicity for users etc

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

It has nothing to with culture, it’s about business, sales, simplicity for users etc

Sure about that? It would be a little naive to assume cultural discrimination and the like doesn’t exist within the domain space.

 

[JB Lions]

Sure about that? It would be a little naive to assume cultural discrimination and the like doesn’t exist within the domain space.

Yes, its about investing, making money with domainers. With businesses, they want an easy to remember name that’s widely accepted, easy for users. Everything I just mentioned is harder with an IDN unless a business is targeting a specific market. Never in my life have I bookmarked an idn site or typed one in, wouldn’t even know how to get to those characters on my keyboard

 

[Samer]

I especially agree, it about simplicity.
It’s fake, you have to type convoluted letters symbols that actually, in turn, mean something else.

I find them Long, cumbersome, and annoying.
I would rather ban IDNs, than emoji domains.

 

[bmugford]

There is no attack on IDNs. They are just not all that popular.

It is simple supply and demand. There is a major lack of demand from end users.

This is especially true with IDN's that require more than one keyboard to type.

Adding extra complexity to your domain is not a good idea IMO.

Brad

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

I especially agree, it about simplicity.
It’s fake, you have to type convoluted letters symbols that actually, in turn, mean something else.

I find them Long, cumbersome, and annoying.
I would rather ban IDNs, than emoji domains.

To ban IDNs would double as censorship of language to some degree. Remember, IDNs have a dual function. A person can type and resolve the domain “Systèmes.com” as it reads from the convenience of their mobile keyboard like any other domain. It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

Mel
QUAD Domains

 

[bmugford]

To ban IDNs would double as censorship of language to some degree. Remember, IDNs have a dual function. A person can type and resolve the domain “Systèmes.com” as it reads from the convenience of their mobile keyboard like any other domain. It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

Mel
QUAD Domains

I don't think anyone needs to ban IDN.

The market has spoken though. Domainers are not that interested because end users are not that interested.

People tend to invest where the money flows. There is not much money flowing into IDNs.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

It’s a plus that “xn--systmes-5xa.com” also acts as a backend variation of the same address. It’s like a house having a front and back door to enter through.

I see that as more of a negative though.

Both doors require some extra level of effort.

Door one requires special characters, and often either multiple keyboards or extra steps to type in.

Door two is kind of irrelevant. Do you really think anyone is going to type "xn--systmes-5xa.com" into a browser?

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

There is no attack; it's at most good advice from fellow domain investors who want to prevent other investors from spending too much of their money on this category.

Also, I notice that you often make posts in which conflict between groups of investors plays a central role. That doesn't seem like a good starting point to me.

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

There is no attack on IDNs. They are just not all that popular.

It is simple supply and demand. There is a major lack of demand from end users.

This is especially true with IDN's that require more than one keyboard to type.

Adding extra complexity to your domain is not a good idea IMO.

Brad

It’s fair to say there’s no record of IDNs being given a real, let alone fair, chance. The supply and demand you’re referencing is a byproduct of an oftentimes deliberate campaign to push “short and .com” as the ONLY option. This is despite there being thousands of other TLDs and naming possibilities that have existed for years.

If we’re being objective here, we can agree the industry as a whole doesn’t have a strong tolerance for different, new or innovative. If it did, the basic STR would be a lot higher. Instead we have a throttling of advancement and an embedded bias. This is the result of a concerted effort by some to cap and steer how the industry evolves for the sake of cementing the value of certain types of names/portfolios.

🗣 Language is language. Words are words. Domains accommodate a combination of the two. Like them or not, IDNs reflect this truth. This was the primary point of the thread. History details many instances where languages and cultures were attacked etc. It still happens today to some degree. Even if under the guise of “conducting business”. In the domain space it’s not too much different.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

ICANN put out a comprehensive report on IDN domain names, looking at country code, new extension and legacy extensions. It looks at both IDNs in the TLDs themselves, and in the SLD. It reports just over 1.5 million domains involve IDNs, a drop of almost 12% over the previous three years. About half of IDNs use Chinese characters.

https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/idn-annual-report-2022-16feb23-en.pdf

In my opinion there is no campaign against IDNs by investors, they simply have, for most part, not found them worthwhile to invest in.

There clearly is a niche in IDNs that some investors continue to follow.

-Bob

 

[Future Sensors]

@QUAD DOMAINS

You'll find this research paper interesting:

A Reexamination of Internationalized Domain Names: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

https://personal.utdallas.edu/~shao/papers/liu_dsn18.pdf

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

There is no attack; it's at most good advice from domain investors who want to prevent other investors from spending too much of their money on this category.

Also, I notice that you often make posts in which conflict between groups of investors plays a central role. That doesn't seem like a good starting point to me.

Of course your viewpoint is respected and appreciated. Emphasizing “conflict between groups of investors” is NEVER a goal. It’s merely a matter of nudging fellow investors to have the REAL discussion about where the industry stands. Even if just for the sake of new students/investors. The industry isn’t perfect by a long shot and could be more progressive. However, we can’t achieve this without pulling back the cover on some truths and doing the checks and balances. It might not be convenient or pretty; but it’s necessary.

 

[bmugford]

If we’re being objective here, we can agree the industry as a whole doesn’t have a strong tolerance for different, new or innovative. If it did, the basic STR would be a lot higher. Instead we have a throttling of advancement and an embedded bias. This is the result of a concerted effort by some to cap and steer how the industry evolves for the sake of cementing the value of certain types of names/portfolios.

Domain investors are certainly open to new things, sometimes to their own detriment.

Look at the showcase threads when it comes to nGTLD and "trend" domains.

The reason this stuff hasn't taken off is not because of domain investors. It is because of a lack of demand from end users.

That is just the reality of the situation.

You act like there is some big cabal against IDN.

Most domainers just don't care about them as they are largely irrelevant when it comes to investment.

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

we can agree the industry as a whole doesn’t have a strong tolerance for different, new or innovative.

Not a strong appetite, I'd say (like Brad is saying, as well).

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

ICANN put out a comprehensive report on IDN domain names, looking at country code, new extension and legacy extensions. It looks at both IDNs in the TLDs themselves, and in the SLD. It reports just over 1.5 million domains involve IDNs, a drop of almost 12% over the previous three years. About half of IDNs use Chinese characters.

https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/idn-annual-report-2022-16feb23-en.pdf

In my opinion there is no campaign against IDNs by investors, they simply have, for most part, not found them worthwhile to invest in.

There clearly is a niche in IDNs that some investors continue to follow.

-Bob

As always, thanks for the perspective. I’d definitely agree IDNs are a niche, at this point, for investors. That’s not something being disputed. The general purpose of the thread was to reiterate IDNs have a place in the world of digital naming. Especially as it relates to cultural representation online via language.

Many investors don’t realize their openly expressed disdain for IDNs could be misinterpreted as a disdain for non-English languages in general. Especially in a world where cultural inclusion and representation are unfortunately a luxury for many. This thread was simply a nod to considering the optics.

Mel
QUAD Domains

 

[kor]

Why do you use emojis for every paragraph?

 

[bmugford]

Many investors don’t realize their openly expressed disdain for IDNs could be misinterpreted as a disdain for non-English languages in general. Especially in a world where cultural inclusion and representation are unfortunately a luxury for many. This thread was simply a nod to considering the optics.

That's quite the stretch.

Any domain investor "bias" is related to their lack of demand. It has nothing to do with language.

Brad

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

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[QUAD DOMAINS]

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[QUAD DOMAINS]

That's quite the stretch.

Any domain investor "bias" is related to their lack of demand. It has nothing to do with language.

Brad

Think so?

 

[bmugford]

Of course your viewpoint is respected and appreciated. Emphasizing “conflict between groups of investors” is NEVER a goal. It’s merely a matter of nudging fellow investors to have the REAL discussion about where the industry stands. Even if just for the sake of new students/investors. The industry isn’t perfect by a long shot and could be more progressive. However, we can’t achieve this without pulling back the cover on some truths and doing the checks and balances. It might not be convenient or pretty; but it’s necessary.

You are having a real discussion here.

Look, people like different things.

Just because people are not cheerleading IDN doesn't mean there is some big conspiracy against them.

Some people made millions of dollars selling little pictures of apes. People go where the money is.
There is just very limited money in IDN.

Brad

 

[HotKey]

Tables have turned, mounting an attack on IDNs. Usually it's the other way around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack

These kind of domains are generally cumbersome to use but implemented as they are meant they can be handy for those wanting their native tongue displayed.

This is mainly an investing platform, and founded on interests towards legacy ccTLDs and .com, .org and. net extensions so there will be natural bias pro those.

Real world usage combined with consistent sale throughput can change minds but as much as we say we are "looking out for newcomers" I have definitely seen a pattern of we are "looking out for our own interests" unfortunately.

There are a few fellow experienced investors here that are an exception, they do have an open mind regardless of whether or not it is a vested interest and look at nuances like merits and outliers and accept that these are ok for the domain in question and could be applied on a larger scale. You have to be realistic though, and I think that is what these respected investors try to impart.

Personally I've always kept an open mind, IDNs are no exception, but throughout the years the realization hits that, in an investing sense, potential and merit in special use domains does not equate a promise of return.

I've given up a TON of, in my eyes, spectacular, niche names across all spectrums only because reaching the one buyer is like looking for a needle in a haystack. And to those whom have acquired the names after me, all the best to you it is actually cool to see.

The domain industry is largely unregulated, things like quality control and pricing are arbitrary and sales may be done in complete secrecy, thus the need for us individual investors to keep what's seen as a "firm hand" on what we know works. Skepticism is to be expected in areas that have underperformed in the past, and new introductions that may or may not produce the results they promise.

 

[QUAD DOMAINS]

I see that as more of a negative though.

Both doors require some extra level of effort.

Door one requires special characters, and often either multiple keyboards or extra steps to type in.

Door two is kind of irrelevant. Do you really think anyone is going to type "xn--systmes-5xa.com" into a browser?

Brad

Come on @bmugford! If one is primarily using a Chinese character mobile keyboard, they’d still have to take those “extra steps” to type in an English name. Unless what you’re implying is that English is the primary language keyboard for all. Are you?