Got hit by US court order

[tenzel]

Hello, this is my first post at Namepros and I don't know where to post this topic, if wrong place please move it to the right place for me.

I have bought some domain names since 2013 Dec
Up to Feb 2014, I submitted transfer all of them to Tucows (openSRS). At begining of Mar 2014 I received an email from Paul Karkas with the following information

Hello - please see the attached Court Order that Tucows received
concerning the domains
list my domain names............................

Please note that Tucows responds to all notifications of Court actions.

Kindly let me know how you will respond.

thank you

The attached file content about asking OpenSRS transfer all domain names to their client's possession and tell them instructions on how they can effectuate this transfer.
The attach signed by one attorney from US.

First I don't care about this email because I think there is some mistake from Tucows and I saw that my domain names still in my account so that I don't think any trouble.

And recently I want to change one of my domain name's DNS I found that my domain name has been lock and can not unlock.

I think Tucows has locked all the domain names because of court order.

Now I don't know what to do because I have purchased these domain names from Dec and they seller push the domain name before I paid him by BTC.

Somebody can tell me how can I do now?

And if you can please tell me how could I avoid this in the future?

 

[Ted.T]

I think that a copy of the letter would help us to understand the whole situation.
You explained it a little vague.

 

[ohassim]

A copy of the letter and domain name/s in question would be helpful in assessing the situation and responding to you appropriately.

 

[alien51]

Or maybe, you can tell us what crime you are being accused of based on the court order ??

 

[ulasbbtr]

Tucows is a US company, their servers are in US so they have to obey US court orders. So you have to care about that email.

 

[NPer]

Are any of these domains perhaps three letter .coms?

Anyway... it sounds like you may have purchased stolen domains.

 

[Name Trader]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[weblord]

Yes, Paul Karkas is right..

list my domain names............................

list your domains you forgot the obvious.

 

[TalkDevelopment]

Wow, How is it possible for someone to steal and sell a domain? I never knew this was a problem.

Do you mean someone hacked someones domain registrar account and transferred the domains to their own account? How is this possible with ICANN needing name and address, etc? Pardon my ignorance on this topic but that is one of the reasons I am here asking questions.

 

[forge]

Wow, How is it possible for someone to steal and sell a domain? I never knew this was a problem.

Do you mean someone hacked someones domain registrar account and transferred the domains to their own account? How is this possible with ICANN needing name and address, etc? Pardon my ignorance on this topic but that is one of the reasons I am here asking questions.

It most always starts by compromising a domain owner's email account. ICANN exists for ICANN and not your protection.

 

[Dave_Z]

Wow, How is it possible for someone to steal and sell a domain? I never knew this was a problem.

Do you mean someone hacked someones domain registrar account and transferred the domains to their own account? How is this possible with ICANN needing name and address, etc? Pardon my ignorance on this topic but that is one of the reasons I am here asking questions.

You actually answered your own questions. No one, not even ICANN, has any way of knowing a domain name is stolen unless someone proves such to the registrar.

Domain names have virtually become a commodity. Pretty much like any other commodity, unfortunately, they can be stolen and sold to unsuspecting parties.

Tucows is headquartered in Toronto, last I checked, although they can choose to honor that court order -- which apparently they're doing.

To the OP: if the court order says the domain names are stolen, then likely you can't do anything about them. Sorry that's no help.

 

[FPForum]

It could be a number of things..maybe the domains are stolen, maybe there is a TM violation on one or more of them (typos or something?), and maybe the email is to try and get you to move the domains.

My suggestions:
-If they are expensive domains (LLL.com or similar) I would recommend you consult a lawyer or someone very soon. You can't afford to login and have those domains just disappear one day.
-If the court order says it's a trademark violation, copyright infringement or something similar then I would recommend you let them go - it most likely isn't worth the time or money to fight because they've probably got good reason for filing it.
-If the court order says they're stolen you need to go wherever you bought them and try to put a stop payment or something immediately. If it was through PayPal file a claim, if it was through your bank call them and explain the situation..etc.

If the court order doesn't show any of that (which I doubt)..or if you just want to verify it's authenticity then look at the court order. See who filed it against you and consider Googling or calling the law firm representing them. This might help you verify that they are actually a legitimate company. Heck, it could even give you some insight as to how big the law firm is and what kind of lawyers are representing them!

All in all..we might be able to help you more if you post the whole email or domain names. At the same time, the best legal advice is going to come from a lawyer in your region!

 

[tenzel]

Thank all for your reply.
First, sorry because I really not want to show my domain names, actually I'm working and living in asia now, I don't know the US law or ICANN law so that I just need your advices.

The attached file content

On Mar 7, the superior court for the state of California issued an order granting our client's application for Ex Parte Writ of Possession. Consistent with this Order, you are hereby immediately order to transfer the domain names contained within the attached exhibit A into our client's possession. Please provide us with the instruction on how we can effectuate this transfer.

1. My domain names are not three letter or shorten domain names, and of course not trademark and they are not have valid website before purchases. If they are really have been stolen, I will give them back to the real owner. But now please tell me how could you know if the domain names stolen or not. I buy them from Dec 2013 and all domain names belong to an european registrar, why at that times nothing happen with my domain names.

2. What if I don't know this trouble and I'm going to sell these domain names and after transactions, the new owner got hit by court order and I become the theft?

3. And what if the original owner agree to sell domain names for me but they want to received money by BTC (even an BTC escrow) and after some months he come back with an attorney and notice that his domain names have been stolen?

4. As far as I know, which domain name need at least 60 days to stay at a registrar before can be transfer to another registrar and what is this period for?

5. If someone do not know English and they live somewhere in the world and they own many good domain names and I hire an US attorney to do such thing, could I get their domain names?

6. How could to avoid this in the future?

7. An outside question: I have just register user in Namepros forum for someday ago, why someone else know my user and send me PM about buying and selling number domain names. And if I steal some domain names and sell it to him, what is the risk for two of us?

Sorry for my bad English, this is my fault and I only know the solution and the experience for the future

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

It could be a number of things..maybe the domains are stolen, maybe there is a TM violation on one or more of them (typos or something?), and maybe the email is to try and get you to move the domains.

My suggestions:
-If they are expensive domains (LLL.com or similar) I would recommend you consult a lawyer or someone very soon. You can't afford to login and have those domains just disappear one day.
-If the court order says it's a trademark violation, copyright infringement or something similar then I would recommend you let them go - it most likely isn't worth the time or money to fight because they've probably got good reason for filing it.
-If the court order says they're stolen you need to go wherever you bought them and try to put a stop payment or something immediately. If it was through PayPal file a claim, if it was through your bank call them and explain the situation..etc.

If the court order doesn't show any of that (which I doubt)..or if you just want to verify it's authenticity then look at the court order. See who filed it against you and consider Googling or calling the law firm representing them. This might help you verify that they are actually a legitimate company. Heck, it could even give you some insight as to how big the law firm is and what kind of lawyers are representing them!

All in all..we might be able to help you more if you post the whole email or domain names. At the same time, the best legal advice is going to come from a lawyer in your region!

I appreciate your suggestions. Thank you very much FPForum

 

[ulasbbtr]

If you are defending yourself with shady bit coin transactions, I am sorry but US court order looks very legitimate to me.

 

[Dave_Z]

Thank all for your reply.
First, sorry because I really not want to show my domain names, actually I'm working and living in asia now, I don't know the US law or ICANN law so that I just need your advices.

The attached file content

On Mar 7, the superior court for the state of California issued an order granting our client's application for Ex Parte Writ of Possession. Consistent with this Order, you are hereby immediately order to transfer the domain names contained within the attached exhibit A into our client's possession. Please provide us with the instruction on how we can effectuate this transfer.

A person files an Ex Parte Writ of Possession at the least to regain stolen (so-called) property. That's likely the case here, albeit that's subject to debate.

1. My domain names are not three letter or shorten domain names, and of course not trademark and they are not have valid website before purchases. If they are really have been stolen, I will give them back to the real owner. But now please tell me how could you know if the domain names stolen or not. I buy them from Dec 2013 and all domain names belong to an european registrar, why at that times nothing happen with my domain names.

Truth is, you don't. You can only try to verify that with the registrar and the other party in question.

Again, that generally happens because no one knows until the actual owner proves to his or her registrar that the domain name is stolen. In my past registrar work, I've had cases where people claimed their domain names were stolen months after the incident occurred.

Especially if the email address on record was compromised, the actual owner will have no way of knowing the theft happened.

2. What if I don't know this trouble and I'm going to sell these domain names and after transactions, the new owner got hit by court order and I become the theft?

Unless you can maybe prove that, unfortunately that's not going to convince anyone. Hopefully, the actual owner might only be interested in regaining the domain name/s. That's up to the actual owner and the court what to do.

3. And what if the original owner agree to sell domain names for me but they want to received money by BTC (even an BTC escrow) and after some months he come back with an attorney and notice that his domain names have been stolen?

That's...up to you two to work out those details.

4. As far as I know, which domain name need at least 60 days to stay at a registrar before can be transfer to another registrar and what is this period for?

Generally, yes, especially to address payment disputes (i.e. credit card chargebacks). Only in very extreme cases such as theft will registrars "undo" a transfer or return the domain name back.

5. If someone do not know English and they live somewhere in the world and they own many good domain names and I hire an US attorney to do such thing, could I get their domain names?

You talk to an attorney or a law professional for that, especially because that question has...negative implications.

7. An outside question: I have just register user in Namepros forum for someday ago, why someone else know my user and send me PM about buying and selling number domain names. And if I steal some domain names and sell it to him, what is the risk for two of us?

That thing can happen for an array of reasons, so you report that here or here. As for your other question, just imagine the worst that you maybe don't want to experience.

 

[Kate]

This is very confusing to me.

First of all, has the complaint been verified ? Years ago, there were people stealing domains by posing as attorneys and making threats against domain holders. One was even prosecuted:
http://www.wired.com/2007/09/fraudster-who-i/

If the complaint is legit, what is the exact motive ? Stolen domains or something else ?

Probably best to consult with an attorney.

 

[Name Trader]

It looks like the Ex Parte Writ of Possession has been granted. Your domains are toast.

On Mar 7, the superior court for the state of California issued an order granting our client's application for Ex Parte Writ of Possession.

I don't think you need a lawyer if the above is true. Just call the court and quote them any reference number to verify. You could ask them if there is any right of appeal. If they say yes, then get a lawyer. But you are in a hole, and the only way out is going to be expensive. Lesson learned about bitcoin purchases from an unknown party.

Best of luck recovering your bitcoins from a bitcoin escrow

 

[FPForum]

Unfortunately, I think I would have to agree with stub here. By the looks of it, the case is long over and the other people have already won the suit. From what I can tell, it was a theft suit and most likely the domains were stolen before being sold to you through a service that doesn't allow chargebacks. You can go hire a lawyer now but it probably isn't going to do any good.

Since it was bitcoin I don't see you getting your money back. It doesn't matter whether you speak English or not, your domains are most likely going to disappear shortly and return back to the previous owner whom they were stolen from. While I'm sorry to see you loose your money, I'm extremely happy to see a domainer out there who was taken advantage of get the last laugh. The biggest downside is that it's not the original thief getting laughed at...it's you because you're the only one coming out of this at a total loss. Hate to see it happen that way, but I also hate to see good people get their property stolen from them!

Take this as a lesson, and hopefully it wasn't a very expensive one..But, always be careful with who you do transactions with. ESPECIALLY when its Bitcoin, Paxum, Skrill, or ANY other company that doesn't offer seller/buyer protection. Most of the time if someone is using those payment methods there is a motive behind it - and it usually isn't a good one!

 

[tenzel]

A person files an Ex Parte Writ of Possession at the least to regain stolen (so-called) property. That's likely the case here, albeit that's subject to debate.

Okay I understand but why the original owner do not verify at his or her registrar and why he or she do not contact directly to me? And do you know how much fee to submit a court at US?

Truth is, you don't. You can only try to verify that with the registrar and the other party in question.

Again, that generally happens because no one knows until the actual owner proves to his or her registrar that the domain name is stolen. In my past registrar work, I've had cases where people claimed their domain names were stolen months after the incident occurred.

Especially if the email address on record was compromised, the actual owner will have no way of knowing the theft happened.

I wonder why nothing happen when the domain names managed under european registrar and when they transfered to Tucows, the problem comes. Maybe the court letter come first to european registrar and they deny it? after that Tucows answer it?

How long for one domain name stay at a registrar is safe for buying?

Unless you can maybe prove that, unfortunately that's not going to convince anyone. Hopefully, the actual owner might only be interested in regaining the domain name/s. That's up to the actual owner and the court what to do.

Yes but sometimes and in my case the owner did not contact to me and S/he submitted to court order. I really don't know why and how the US court can find out the problem without registrar's cooperation.

If you are defending yourself with shady bit coin transactions, I am sorry but US court order looks very legitimate to me.

If I use escrow.com or some other trust services and this happen? Could I get the result better?

This is very confusing to me.

First of all, has the complaint been verified ? Years ago, there were people stealing domains by posing as attorneys and making threats against domain holders. One was even prosecuted:
........(can't not quote link)...................

If the complaint is legit, what is the exact motive ? Stolen domains or something else ?

Probably best to consult with an attorney.

Thank you for your information, but I do not want to make a phone call because my speaking is so poor and I will find out more information about this by Google.

It looks like the Ex Parte Writ of Possession has been granted. Your domains are toast.

One month come by and the domain names still being lock in my account, how long it will move to the original owner and is there any case the time take place too long and the domain names go to expire?

I don't think you need a lawyer if the above is true. Just call the court and quote them any reference number to verify. You could ask them if there is any right of appeal. If they say yes, then get a lawyer. But you are in a hole, and the only way out is going to be expensive. Lesson learned about bitcoin purchases from an unknown party.

Could you tell me a web or a place or a case has been taken place for me to know more how verify. If not, it's OK.

Unfortunately, I think I would have to agree with stub here. By the looks of it, the case is long over and the other people have already won the suit. From what I can tell, it was a theft suit and most likely the domains were stolen before being sold to you through a service that doesn't allow chargebacks. You can go hire a lawyer now but it probably isn't going to do any good.

Since it was bitcoin I don't see you getting your money back. It doesn't matter whether you speak English or not, your domains are most likely going to disappear shortly and return back to the previous owner whom they were stolen from. While I'm sorry to see you loose your money, I'm extremely happy to see a domainer out there who was taken advantage of get the last laugh. The biggest downside is that it's not the original thief getting laughed at...it's you because you're the only one coming out of this at a total loss. Hate to see it happen that way, but I also hate to see good people get their property stolen from them!

Take this as a lesson, and hopefully it wasn't a very expensive one..But, always be careful with who you do transactions with. ESPECIALLY when its Bitcoin, Paxum, Skrill, or ANY other company that doesn't offer seller/buyer protection. Most of the time if someone is using those payment methods there is a motive behind it - and it usually isn't a good one!

I don't know why and how to know what is a good choice for transaction. If the transaction take place in some days or one or two weeks, you can contact your escrow service to get chargebacks.

But if it has been take place 3 months or even more, how could you prove that and how could you get chargeback? And the escrow think that maybe you are creating a fake report?

I want to say thank you to Dave Zan, FPForum, stub and sdsinc, all of you have take your times to help me.