Click Fraud 2005

[mole]

According to Clickrisk’s chief risk officer, Jack Bensimon, "our clients have experienced substantial losses ranging from 20 – 65 per cent of their total click costs."

How serious is the click fraud threat to Internet Marketers? Do you suspect that you may have been affected? How will this affect the domain industry's PPC providers?

Click Fraud Exposed
http://news.com.com/Exposing+click+fraud/2100-1024_3-5273078.html

Google Concerned
http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/02/tec..._fraud/?cnn=yes

Competitive Sabotage Takes A New Twist
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/0...adwords_attack/

The Truth Is Out There
http://www.clickrisk.com/clickrisk-click-fraud.pdf (link requires Adobe Reader)

 

[JMJ]

Most PPC providers are already on top of this. Unfortunately I think they are ontop of it abit too much so it's actually hurting our pockets as domainers. I'm noticing one who is not paying when the same IP clicks on multiple links of the same topic. my click log will show the IP clicking on the links but when it comes to payout it seems all those clicks go away. It can't be that ALL of these people are clicking the same link over and over.

 

[primacomputer]

How serious is the click fraud threat to Internet Marketers? Do you suspect that you may have been affected? How will this affect the domain industry's PPC providers?

Very serious. It affects legitimate internet marketers I so many ways, directly and indirectly.

Yes, I have been a affected, we all have. Lower PPC rates and rampant shaving by PPC service are seriously hurting the industry.

PPC services will have to get their act together. For years people said the concept of PPC would never work, and now they are being proved right. They need to go back to the basics, understand what PPC is all about, and come up with system that works. It's not hard.

I also see class actions in the future against mega-shavers like Sedo. Shaving is also a type of click fraud. When things have settled down, they will held accountable for all that revenue they collected but never paid out.

 

[JMJ]

Yeah I'm begining to wonder about my main PPC feed. I can't believe I had 1100 searches yeasterday with only 10 clicks netting me .8 cents when the only results are paid clicks.

 

[snoop]

For years people said the concept of PPC would never work, and now they are being proved right.

are you watching the market?, in the last year the ppc industry grew by over 60% in terms of total revenue, google recently released profit figures up 600% due to ppc growth, how are the ppc naysayers being proven right?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aTfx5lrbCTkM&refer=us

 

[mole]

mega-shavers

hmm... I learn a new term every day :o

in the last year the ppc industry grew by over 60% in terms of total revenue, google recently released profit figures up 600% due to ppc growth

That's organic growth due to an exponential turnaround in search marketing as the next big thing over the past 2 years; and where money goes, both the good and bad follows.

I wonder how much money people have actually lost as the parasitic feeders drain on the tubes. :zzz:

 

[primacomputer]

are you watching the market?

I've been watching the market since the mid 90's when I started working in the dotcom scene. I can say with confidence that one year of stellar results does not prove that a fundamentally unsound market concept is a success. I thought we all learned this 5 years ago?

So are we saying that Google, darling of the neo-dotcomers ...... has leveraged their eyeballs and authoritatively harnessed extensible mind share to proactively provide incentivized user centric goal oriented revenue streams by facilitating impactful synergies between their bleading edge horizontal portal search engine and their B2C supply chain partners?

I know a lot of people who have reams of share certificats they can use wipe their bums because they listened to that some analist says “probably” might happen maybe because of something. How much of that increase in revenue was due to click fraud? How much is due to poorly converting traffic that will eventually end up driving down revenue when PPC is cut from the next years advertising budget?

PPC is fundamentally flawed. The only way to make it work is to enforce conversion ratios. If you do that then it's not PPC, it's just an affiliate programme that pays out in small bits. PPC, PPL, CPM, whatever you want to call it. If there isn't a direct connection between sales a company makes and advertising a company spends there is room for it to be abused. And abused it is being.

 

[equity78]

Prima you make a lot of good points but I think PPC can work because sites that get traffic are going to demand to earn something not only if they convert a sale many high traffic sites look at themselves as a Billboard there is no proof a billboard converts but they get paid for that ad on their billboard. And I agree Click Fraud works both ways plenty of domainers being defrauded in their payouts In my opinion. Because does all that money getrefunded? (No) IF sedo only pays for one click on a mortgage page what's that called? It is possible a legitimate surfer clicked two ads but they only pay one, they still charge Chase if first you clicked on a Bank One ad but only pay owner of PPC domain once.

 

[mole]

So are we saying that Google, darling of the neo-dotcomers ...... has leveraged their eyeballs and authoritatively harnessed extensible mind share to proactively provide incentivized user centric goal oriented revenue streams by facilitating impactful synergies between their bleading edge horizontal portal search engine and their B2C supply chain partners?

Impressive linguistics :tri:

 

[Midano]

OK. I'm tapping into the "other side" of PPC.

Main reasons of PPC fraud:
- Publishers - material gain, kinda obvious;
- Advertisers - competitive clicking - click competitor's links in order to drain their advertising budgets.

Here's my logic:

1. Filter our ALL clicks coming from proxie servers.
Pros: Most click fraud is coming from proxies since they block IP addresses.
Cons: This will for sure kill some legit clicks, but that's a price publishers will have to pay.

2. Enable admins to specify a time period within which only one click from a particular IP is allowed on a particular link.
Pros: They can't click the same link over and over.
Cons: This only works for users with static IPs.

3. Enable admins to specify a total number of clicks (cap) coming from a particular IP within specified time frame.
Pros: Limit the risk.
Cons: This only works for users with static IPs. Some legit clicks will be filtered out.

 

[primacomputer]

Here's my logic:

Some good points. I wouldn't worry about loosing legitimate clicks from proxy servers. People who use proxy servers are so security conscious that they will probably not buy anything online anyway. As such, they aren't potential customers and should be shaved anyway.

Shaving clicks on the same link or made within a certain period of time are also nice ideas, and being done already. I disagree with basing this on IP address though. There are massive networks that show up as coming from a single IP address. So if you have 50,000 people in a company all behind the same firewall and an average of 10 of them click you link each day you get paid for 1.

The problem is that no matter how many systems you put in place there is always someone who can beat them. And as long as there is an incentive to do so it will be done.

Impressive linguistics :tri:

Years of dotcom abuse have rotted my brain

Prima you make a lot of good points but I think PPC can work because sites that get traffic are going to demand to earn something not only if they convert a sale many high traffic sites look at themselves as a Billboard there is no proof a billboard converts but they get paid for that ad on their billboard.

Thanks. I agreein part. Sites with serious traffic will insist on being paid. They probably sell banner ads for US$5000/week. That's more akin to a billboard. PPC is more like paying a nickel for each driver who drives past the bill board. So I set up a bill board and find some fool to place an ad. I then get on the on freeway, drive past, collect my nickel, get off at the next off ramp, do a u turn and do it all again. That's exactly what scammers are doing with PPC

 

[billinchina]

Even if PPC has probs, affiliate programs are here to stay. I've been saying this for a long time now. I love CJ.com because if you have legitimate traffic, you are going to make sales and receive commissions. The EPC and CPM on affiliate programs are very high in my experience. The fact that they have a stable future makes them all the more attractive. So, my advice is to enjoy PPC while you can still make good money on it, but start relying on affiliate programs income to pave a solid reliable future for yourself. I think affiliate programs are going to keep becoming better and better. One thing that I hope to see is more online stores paying for purchase referrals for already existing customers. For instance, if I have an account at somesite.com and I click on a link at mysite.com to somesite.com and buy something, I want mysite.com to get paid even though I did not referer the customer for the first time. If my site gave them the idea of buying something from somesite.com again, I should get monetary credit for it.

 

[equity78]

if I have an account at somesite.com and I click on a link at mysite.com to somesite.com and buy something, I want mysite.com to get paid even though I did not referer the customer for the first time. If my site gave them the idea of buying something from somesite.com again, I should get monetary credit for it.

Nice Idea Bill good points on Affiliate programs. Most Domainers I think will not put in the time I know some guys with great names, I say develop them or at least Affiliate programs and they are like no way just PPC if there was no PPC they out of the business. Registrars would take a hit to some degree I think if PPC went away. IMO

Prima you seem pretty sharp IMO what would you do to change PPC? Thank you

 

[Midano]

For instance, if I have an account at somesite.com and I click on a link at mysite.com to somesite.com and buy something, I want mysite.com to get paid even though I did not referer the customer for the first time. If my site gave them the idea of buying something from somesite.com again, I should get monetary credit for it.

Your wish has been granted.
This IS how most affiliate programs work. If a customer clicks into somesite.com from your site through YOUR referral link, a cookie is created on their computer. As long as that cookie is live (even if a customer doesn't buy anything right away) any purchase from that computer will be considered as referred by you and you will get commissions. It's called "cookie duration", for example Amazon's cookie lives 24 hours, other's can stay alive for weeks, months, years... If a user on that computer clicks on same merchant's link/banner from other website, their referral cookie will overwrite your referral cookie and you will get nothing if the customer comes back to the merchant's site directly.
I hope I didn't confuse you.

To summarize all of the above - your goal is to push as many cookies into as many client computers as possible.

 

[equity78]

Midano I think he means that he keeps a client do most affiliate programs pay you if the client was already a client meaning if you bought 10 things at Amazon and are a client ,If you see a book review on Bill's site will they pay him a commission if you click from his link? I don't know never done Thanks for the cookie info.

 

[Midano]

Midano I think he means that he keeps a client do most affiliate programs pay you if the client was already a client

YES, as long as the client has YOUR referral cookie in their computer AND the cookie is alive. It doesn't matter whether it's a new or existing customer.

Example:
1. You clicked on Amazon banner (referral) on my site. My referral cookie drops into you computer (or overwrites someone else's cookie if it was already there)
2. You poked around Amazon, but didn't find anything.
3. You turned your computer off and went away to make out with your girlfriend.
4. You came back 5 hours later (the cookie is still alive), turned your computer on and went straight to Amazon (without clicking anywhere, just typed it in).
5. You made a purchase.
6. I get paid.

 

[primacomputer]

Thanks. All I would do is enforce conversion ratios. This could mean you get paid for the first 1,000 clicks and then nothing more until a sale of $30 is made. Clicks could start at $0.05, slide down to $0, and reset to $0.05 on a sale of $30. Whatever. It works as long as the time before cutting a check and minimum pay-out amount ensure that you are never paying out before the guy has sent you enough converting traffic to cover it. As I've said this means it's technically not PPC, but that doesn't stop you from calling it that.

There will always be something called PPC because it's such a sexy concept. People just get so excited seeing all those pennies rack up in their stats every day. It's instant gratification. A brilliant marketing ploy. Most people would rather see earning of $1 every day than a once a month payment of $50.

I'm also not happy with the way affiliate programmes don't pay you for someone who is already a customer. I understand why they do this. There are analogies in the real world. But the system online is flawed. I think that if they don't want to pay for someone then they should tell me that he's already a customer. This way I can flog him something else instead of wasting my ad space on something I'll never get paid for.

Along the same lines I think that PPC companies that aren't going to pay for multiple clicks on the same link should display the same ad to the same guy twice. This is just plain fraud, especially when done by companies that “count every click”. But if the PPC companies don't want to do this then why not do it on your own? Sign up for half a dozen PPC services and rotate between them each time a visitor comes back.

In all honesty all these problems are things that can easily be overcome. The problem is that the market is still relatively immature. The companies that listen to their users and use the feedback to improve their services will grow. Companies that don't listen or lie and cheat will eventually fail.

 

[Midano]

I'm also not happy with the way affiliate programmes don't pay you for someone who is already a customer.

This is a common misconception. Most affiliate programs DO pay you for purchases made by existing costomers.

 

[Matrix1976]

too much stuff to read right now, but ill catch up on it later ;

on a side note ;

is it just me or is domainsponsor revenu sucking big time lately (past 15-20 days) ?? my revenu is way down...i noticed a decrease on my afternic revenu as well....

 

[JMJ]

It's going to be a tough battle either way. When it comes to pay-per-sale affiliate programs you have to depend on the company you are promoting to close the deal to get paid and have faith that will pay you. I ran CJ a few years back on one of my sites for a year and never made one dime. I got so tired of promoting those sites for nothing I eventually change over to fastclick and brought in $50 bucks the first month. Needless to say I never added another affiliate banner program to a site I own ever again.