The USA Political Thread

[lennco]

Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun

:wave:

 

[Kate]

C'mon now. Russia? Mr. KGB himself Putin, doesn't need to take any cues from us. They probably put us to shame in that department.

Putin is a man from the Soviet era, clearly not a democrat.
My point is that when there was the scarecrow of communism, the nations of the so-called free world had to maintain at least a facade of democracy, now all restraints have gone. That's why the US and China now look more and more the same (I repeat myself).
People don't realize yet how much the world has changed since the fall of the Iron curtain.

It's ironic to think that Nixon fell for bugging the Democrats while today it's the whole planet that is being tapped and people seem to think it's perfectly normal.
I don't want to live in a world where my every move, conversation or action is recorded forever under the guise of protecting me from terrorists, especially when the prevailing attitude is that anybody is suspect and should be put under permanent surveillance.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

Well, terrorism is not our friend. And it happens. What do you expect, less?

I note that the terrorists have succeeded in changing our way of life, so in my view the terrorists have won to a large extent.

That's the beauty of the system: people think they are still as free as before, that they are just experiencing 'temporary' stress and that it will go away soon because the government is caring.

History is made of ups and downs, and I firmly believe (if we live long enough) that one day we will be ashamed to tell our children and grandchildren we have lived in such times and did nothing (sounds familiar ?).

...
When the U.S. helps, it's why are they meddling. If we don't, it's why aren't you doing anything. And when somebody needs help, who do they usually call?

I agree that the US has often stepped up to the plate for other countries, but Uncle Sam is not always right.
I am a citizen of a country with no enemies, as such I should never have been dragged into that global crusade, the US-led war on terror that is actually a war on the people, freedom and democracy.

 

[eyedomainous]

Communications technology are products of choice. If you want the "freedoms you had before", get off the web and don't use phones.

I still choose not to use cell phones because I do not like the privacy trade-offs.

I know people, in the computer biz, and in the professional activist community, who do not use the web, or cell phones, by choice. They are protecting their privacy. It is Your responsibility to protect your privacy.

To go outside naked, then complain that people who look at you are violating your right to privacy reflects a privileged sense of entitlement.

 

[JB Lions]

Pick up a few history books, then read your local newspaper. You'll see plenty of parallels. I would guess you've been brought up to take a sort of semi-neutered lifestyle for granted. The overwhelming police presence in every little incident, the abuse at the airports, the endless obscure regulations and need for attorneys to conduct daily affairs, pay taxes, run a business, the IRS targeting political groups. None of that worries you, so I imagine it will take a pretty nasty smack to wake you up. I can't imagine what it will be, but governments by nature will keep pushing until they reach that point.

You said ways that will shock me, so I was expecting something good and you posted a bunch of nothing.

"overwhelming police presence in every little incident" - that's what police do. When there is crime, usually police. I'm sure you have police in Japan.

"abuse at the airports" - what? Are you talking about screening? Something that every airport has and something that's always been around. Why in the world would somebody have a problem with that, how is that supposed to shock me?

"endless obscure regulations and need for attorneys to conduct daily affairs, pay taxes, run a business," Common sense regulation is fine. I have my own business, didn't need an attorney, now it's a small business and I have an accountant, but that was of my choosing. Big business has lawyers, and? We have this thing called the law so if something comes up in that regard, you have a ........lawyer. If you have a plumbing issue you can't handle yourself, you get a ........ plumber. Taxes? Don't see the point in that one. You do understand the need for taxes and what they're used for?

"IRS targeting political groups" - they look at everybody. Again, the ones you're referring too all god approved. You had some Dem ones in the past, disapproved. Looks like they went over the line some but they are supposed to check things out.

So no, none of that worries me because there is nothing there to worry about.

I agree that the US has often stepped up to the plate for other countries, but Uncle Sam is not always right.
I am a citizen of a country with no enemies, as such I should never have been dragged into that global crusade, the US-led war on terror that is actually a war on the people, freedom and democracy.

Of course we're not always right. As far as war on terror, so you suggest what? We do nothing?

I'm curious how you think the U.S. should handle some situations.

North Korea steps to South Korea, U.S. should..........?

Somebody steps to Israel, U.S. should...........?

Do nothing?

When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we stepped in and handled it. Should we have done nothing? Just let Saddam run them over? Would things have been better if we did that?

 

[DU]

As far as war on terror, so you suggest what? We do nothing?

Who and what is this "terror" we're fighting?

What do we do if a country decides to attack Iraq on some false premise?

 

[JB Lions]

Who and what is this "terror" we're fighting?

What do we do if a country decides to attack Iraq on some false premise?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=war+on+terror

As far as the second part, I'll answer that one, after you answer the ones I asked in the previous post.

 

[DU]

Define "steps to" as I dont know what that means.

 

[JB Lions]

Attack, invade, light them up with missiles etc. You know what it means.

Do you what I meant by "handled it", when I said:

"When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we stepped in and handled it."

I'm sure you do.

 

[Domainace]

I was maybe wrong about shocking you. Hard to shock someone who refuses to look.

Your answers below are the usual "it's like that everywhere," despite the lack of evidence. Brainwashed replies.

I can go a whole day in the city without noticing any police. And even when they are present, there are a few and they are unobtrusive. The are not the paramilitary style police that are common in the US who cover every public event ready to taser anyone for a minor offense.
And police generally do not interfere in personal squabbles. If you have an issue, you work it out. if you find yourself in a shoving match with someone in the US, the police will arrest both of you and you can spend the next several years dealing with criminal and civil courts. (Don't let you imagine run wild here again. I don't get involved in physical altercations.) But you are used to the heavy police presence, and think the whole world is that way.

Abuse at American airports is legendary. Security at other airports in the world generally try to focus on suspicious looking people, rather than just treating everyone like cattle. Again, you are used to it and think it's normal.

Regulations are excessive and crudely enforced. Again, you are used to it and think the whole world is that way. "This thing called law" comes up more frequently in the US than elsewhere. That's part of the problem, as almost everything now has become law in the States. Without a second thought, Americans make a legal issue out of even the most minor problems, allowing the government to control what would formerly have been a private issue.

Regarding the IRS, you are just in flat denial mode.

It's all fine with you because you don't know any better life apparently.

You said ways that will shock me, so I was expecting something good and you posted a bunch of nothing.

"overwhelming police presence in every little incident" - that's what police do. When there is crime, usually police. I'm sure you have police in Japan.

"abuse at the airports" - what? Are you talking about screening? Something that every airport has and something that's always been around. Why in the world would somebody have a problem with that, how is that supposed to shock me?

"endless obscure regulations and need for attorneys to conduct daily affairs, pay taxes, run a business," Common sense regulation is fine. I have my own business, didn't need an attorney, now it's a small business and I have an accountant, but that was of my choosing. Big business has lawyers, and? We have this thing called the law so if something comes up in that regard, you have a ........lawyer. If you have a plumbing issue you can't handle yourself, you get a ........ plumber. Taxes? Don't see the point in that one. You do understand the need for taxes and what they're used for?

"IRS targeting political groups" - they look at everybody. Again, the ones you're referring too all god approved. You had some Dem ones in the past, disapproved. Looks like they went over the line some but they are supposed to check things out.

So no, none of that worries me because there is nothing there to worry about.



Of course we're not always right. As far as war on terror, so you suggest what? We do nothing?

I'm curious how you think the U.S. should handle some situations.

North Korea steps to South Korea, U.S. should..........?

Somebody steps to Israel, U.S. should...........?

Do nothing?

When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we stepped in and handled it. Should we have done nothing? Just let Saddam run them over? Would things have been better if we did that?

 

[JB Lions]

"I can go a whole day in the city without noticing any police."

You're in Japan, how in the hell can you notice police in the U.S.? I can go days without seeing them myself. I think maybe you watch a little too much liveleak or something?

The airport stuff is funny. Going thru a metal detector/screening is normal, all airports have them. But for you, you like to make it something big, it's ..........ABUSE. Oh, the horror.

And you're really not qualified to make that type of assessment, because again, you don't live here. You base this off stuff you find on the internet I guess. It's why your post is a bunch of crazy. Really, one day I'll wake up and be shocked that I pay taxes? You post some straight up crazy stuff sometimes and the sad thing is, I don't think you even realize it. But, it's what I come to expect from somebody who said Communist China has more freedom. It just shows how out of touch you are.

 

[Domainace]

"I can go a whole day in the city without noticing any police."

You're in Japan, how in the hell can you notice police in the U.S.? I can go days without seeing them myself. I think maybe you watch a little too much liveleak or something?

The airport stuff is funny. Going thru a metal detector/screening is normal, all airports have them. But for you, you like to make it something big, it's ..........ABUSE. Oh, the horror.

And you're really not qualified to make that type of assessment, because again, you don't live here. You base this off stuff you find on the internet I guess. It's why your post is a bunch of crazy.

The way you misstate (misread) what I post is quite amazing. That's why it gets tiring explaining things to you. When did I say I could see the police in America from Japan?

Airports again...round in circles.

For a guy who constantly Googles his answers, it's odd that you would criticize info found on the internet as crazy. In any case, I base this on my personal observations. You see, they have these things called airplanes - makes it easy to go to the US and experience it first-hand. And as I implied in another comment you completely misinterpreted, most people are far more informed about the US than you are about their countries, such as Portugal. You assume that living there currently gives you an indisputable knowledge of the place. Most people are not all that aware of what's happening outside their immediate sphere. Whether that describes you is something to think about.

And while we are at it, show me where I said China has more freedom. I said something along the lines of "a case could be made" or "in some aspects." Rather than address a reasonably qualified assertion, you chose to misstate it and repeat your misinterpretation. In other words, you make stuff up.

 

[JB Lions]

No, it's me trying to explain things to you. Let's try again.

You're in Japan. You're talking like you know about police in the United States. You're in another country. You're trying to make some comparison about how it is in Japan, which you should know about since you live there, to the United States. Doesn't work. That would be like me trying to comment on the daily police presence in Japan. I don't know, I don't live there. I'm not sure why you have trouble understanding this.

And yes, actually living somewhere would give you more insight.

"makes it easy to go to the US and experience it first-hand."

Give me details. Did they bend you over or something? Back your post up, tell me of the abuse you suffered.

 

[Kate]

Communications technology are products of choice. If you want the "freedoms you had before", get off the web and don't use phones.

And the next step:
- don't leave your house, to avoid the face recognition cameras
- don't drive, because there automated license plate readers on the road and your moves are monitored and recorded.
- don't travel, because you are going to be fingerprinted
- don't use credit cards because you're being tracked and profiled
- etc

To sum up: renounce all your freedoms, including the freedom to move.
I cannot accept your flawed logic, just because I use the phone doesn't mean I am not entitled to privacy. Private conversations are not part of the public record.
It's nobody's business and nobody should have the right to monitor my communications, unless of course there is a surveillance warrant specifically issued against me, because there is compelling evidence I have committed a crime. But blanket surveillance of innocent citizens is wrong !

"I can go a whole day in the city without noticing any police."

You're in Japan, how in the hell can you notice police in the U.S.? I can go days without seeing them myself. I think maybe you watch a little too much liveleak or something?

The airport stuff is funny. Going thru a metal detector/screening is normal, all airports have them. But for you, you like to make it something big, it's ..........ABUSE. Oh, the horror.

US airports =Gattaca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT

Denial: making up excuses to justify a state of affairs you haven't even chosen, but that you are too afraid to question.
Hey, in America it's normal... like so many other disturbing stuff...

 

[enlytend]

This is really nice ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3oPloe08a3Q

So is this ...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...trip-search-kennedy-airport-article-1.1007725

and this ...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...t-pull-back-bandages-before-end-of-life-trip/

I'm sure some people here think this is fine and totally justifiable - not "abuse" at all...

 

[JB Lions]

US airports =Gattaca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT

Ah, Gattaca, I have that movie on blu.

The only chang I've noticed because of 9/11, is I have to take off my shoes.

I know people coming into the country have to do that little thumb thing, my aunts who visited this year told me about it. They didn't have a problem with it.

But on behalf of the United States, I want to apologize for the abuse your little thumbs had to go thru, getting into the country. I know it must have been traumatic.

This is really nice ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3oPloe08a3Q

So is this ...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...trip-search-kennedy-airport-article-1.1007725

and this ...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...t-pull-back-bandages-before-end-of-life-trip/

I'm sure some people here think this is fine and totally justifiable - not "abuse" at all...

Of course those cases are bad but that's the old using isolated incidents/exception to try to make an argument instead of the rule. You do that when you don't have much of a case to begin with. We had over 812,000,000 people come thru our airports last year.

 

[enlytend]

You do that when you don't have much of a case to begin with.

Maybe YOU do, I don't. Don't make ASSumptions.

My case is pretty good - those incidents wouldn't have happened at all before 9/11, less severe abuses happen every day.

We had over 812,000,000 people come thru our airports last year.

And I'm sure they all found it to be a delightful and heartwarming experience. And their exhibitionistic side just loved the full body scans.

 

[JB Lions]

We'll disagree on that one. Some isolated incidents, out of 812,000,000. Think about that number for a little bit. I'm sure most people have a pretty normal experience with it and understand why we have it. We haven't had any instances like 9/11 since.

Plus - TSA gets rid of full-body scanners at US airports
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/31/tsa-gets-rid-full-body-image-scanners-at-us-airports/

 

[eyedomainous]

That's right, you have the freedom to choose to leave the house, drive, travel, use credit cards, the web and or the phone.

Its also your responsibility to know the 'rules of the road' for each aspect of society you choose to engage.

When it comes to the phone the Terms Of Use state the phone company has the right to share data from your use of the service. So, again, if you don't like it... Don't Use It!

The only flawed logic here is you declaring "blanket surveillance of innocent citizens is wrong !" AFTER you point out:
- Surveillance cameras
- Automated license readers
- Travel security measures
- Credit card user profiles

If you can grasp the concept of local and State governments policing road and highway traffic, the idea of the Federal gov policing traffic on the ' global information superhighway' is really not a difficult concept.

And the next step:
- don't leave your house, to avoid the face recognition cameras
- don't drive, because there automated license plate readers on the road and your moves are monitored and recorded.
- don't travel, because you are going to be fingerprinted
- don't use credit cards because you're being tracked and profiled
- etc

To sum up: renounce all your freedoms, including the freedom to move.

I cannot accept your flawed logic, just because I use the phone doesn't mean I am not entitled to privacy. Private conversations are not part of the public record.
It's nobody's business and nobody should have the right to monitor my communications, unless of course there is a surveillance warrant specifically issued against me, because there is compelling evidence I have committed a crime. But blanket surveillance of innocent citizens is wrong !

 

[Kate]

But on behalf of the United States, I want to apologize for the abuse your little thumbs had to go thru, getting into the country. I know it must have been traumatic.

I will not allow any government to fingerprint me like a criminal.

But since you are OK with it, I have good news for you: it's going to be your turn very soon.
Do you really think Americans are going to be exempted forever ? Of course not, the terrocrats just need another Dudaev (American terrorist) as a pretext to ram it down the throat of the American people.
Everybody will be 'enrolled', such is the predictable 'logic' of the system.
It's written on the wall, so mark my words.
And remember, 'they' are only getting started.

Have a good life, slave

 

[JB Lions]

Slave? The only slave here would be you, because you're trapped by your own paranoia and fear. One of the things I like to do is travel and some countries just require it - http://www.budgettravel.com/blog/news-europe-may-start-fingerprinting-visitors,9661/ Good chance more in the future, even some you might want to go to.

But you can stay trapped in Iceland.

 

[Kate]

I think the most paranoid entity out there is the US tapping like crazy, not the innocent, law-abiding citizens who balk at the overreach of big government.
It is also ironic that Snowden has 'spying' charges brought against him, while he denounced the illegal spying going on. The US government is afraid that more people like him will step up and expose the truth. Then it will become more difficult for citizens like you to sweep the inconvenient reality under the rug and keep making up excuses. It's not like people have absolutely no idea of what's going on. They don't care until it's too late (for them).
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

http://www.budgettravel.com/blog/news-europe-may-start-fingerprinting-visitors,9661/

Since we do the same to them, and other countries do it as well, we can't be too surprised.

As you can see your own medicine is coming back to you.
At least I hope you're feeling safe now.

PS: be happy you are not among those unfortunate enough to be on the no-fly list or the other terrorist watch lists that run in parallel.
Another land of the free program.

 

[enlytend]

Plus - TSA gets rid of full-body scanners at US airports
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...t-us-airports/

Good! They finally came to their senses about that travesty. $140 million lesson learned.

(But if they were still in service, I bet you'd be defending the practice )

 

[JB Lions]

Good! They finally came to their senses about that travesty. $140 million lesson learned.

(But if they were still in service, I bet you'd be defending the practice )

They are still in service at some places, at least a couple of weeks ago and the 2 airports I was at. It's really not a big deal to me, it's just a scan.

As you can see your own medicine is coming back to you.
At least I hope you're feeling safe now.

PS: be happy you are not among those unfortunate enough to be on the no-fly list or the other terrorist watch lists that run in parallel.
Another land of the free program.

Again, not a big deal to me. Or to most people. You're worried about fingerprints and government in your life, when you have government run healthcare in your country, no room for private enterprise. And I'm sure they can get more than fingerprints from you.

And go back to traveling. If this becomes the norm everywhere, do you just hang out in your own country the rest of your life? Be a shut in? Scared to travel anywhere because they might fingerprint you or scan you? That's free?

 

[Theo Goodman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6NMr2VrhmFI
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6NMr2VrhmFI?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6NMr2VrhmFI

 

[RaiderGirl]

It's almost impossible to travel abroad and not be fingerprinted...

If they can match up a fingerprint of a murderer or terrorist and capture him at the risk of offending or inconveniencing others then so be it... It's the society we live in today,

It's not like were living in a perfect world where everyone is peace loving and honest, it's those who are NOT that ruin it for the rest of us.

 

[Kate]

Not only that.

License plate readers that track your moves across the state, and archive the data possibly forever.
Not to mention your mobile phone that is a beacon device, but at least you can switch it off.
Then the facial recognition cameras. If you do not have privacy you are not free. If you are not allowed a measure of anonymity you are not free either.
Orwell was spot on in his predictions, the only difference is that instead of one Big Brother we have a myriad of Little Brothers.

Unfortunately, we are heading toward a society that is less free and less secure. Yes, we are losing on both counts and that is perfectly normal. Security vs privacy is a false trade-off and a scam.
For example I can easily get hold of your fingerprints or plant your DNA somewhere. I just need to collect some of your hair or saliva, or anything. You leave it on almost anything you touch.
If your DNA is found on a crime scene how are you going to prove your innocence ? Your fingerprints being found somewhere means nothing as such, but makes you a suspect. The burden of the proof is reversed when everyone is deemed a suspect, a potential criminal.

There is one big problem. You are assuming that the government is doing all that for your safety, but it is also to control the masses. And it's about money too. Some companies are making lots of money on the destruction of your privacy. Follow the money always. Hint: it's more or less the same companies that thrive on wars and military expenditures.


Now something different. In Italy, if you want to use the Internet at a cybercafé you need to show ID. Yes, just like in China.
Think about if for a minute. You have a clerk that is not a sworn civil servant, who possibly changes jobs every 6 months and you must entrust that person with a copy of your passport, that will be kept in a drawer and almost as secure as a piece of trash.
And you wonder why identity theft is so prevalent ? Seriously ?

It's because government is the problem, not the solution. The lawmakers don't care about your privacy.
The laws tend to make things worse for all of us, and people are not seeing the bigger picture. The irony is that they look to the government like some benevolent entity that is going to take care of it all. Yeah right.

The Western world is paranoid and sick, and the gullible voters are drinking the Koolaid that is handed to them, hence committing suicide.