Has anyone ever been a victim?
- Thread starter ashaw
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And also, there are less scammers in UK compared to some countries I dont want to name here!Scott said:£50 and the odd $10. NoChex is good for the UK, once the money is sent, you can't get it back!
I'm certain that PayPal is quite happy to block a persons account in the event of a complaint and then just forget about it. Just like hosts that will pull a plug on a site because of a spam complaint without even finding out if there really was spam sent.
Somehow I've got the feeling that we are all getting the short end of the stick with these types of things. We are the ones that pay the fees on payment processors and yet there only has to be one idiot around complaining and you lose all your money. I think it is about time that PayPal and payment processors in general start realising on which side their bread is buttered on. I would be more than happy to sign a petition pertaining to such!
Somehow I've got the feeling that we are all getting the short end of the stick with these types of things. We are the ones that pay the fees on payment processors and yet there only has to be one idiot around complaining and you lose all your money. I think it is about time that PayPal and payment processors in general start realising on which side their bread is buttered on. I would be more than happy to sign a petition pertaining to such!
There isn't anything you can do against reverse chargebacks at least not if it's something like paying for templates online, and I hate when that happens. I'm glad I've never been scammed or had a reverse chargeback at PayPal. Here's a tip: I've seen a couple websites that haven't accepted PayPal payments from personal accounts because of the chargeback. Only accept PayPal payments from personal accounts if you know you can trust the person.
I'm not going to make any assumptions, but has anyone here who is complaining about PAYPAL ever had a merchant account through which a similar FRAUD was perpetrated?
How did you merchant account provider handle it that was better?
This is an important question, because I'm willing to bet that many people doing business online through Paypal, have NEVER had their own merchant account... do not know about the evils of CHARGE BACKS, and haven't had to deal with mounting fraudulent charges like car crashes, driving your merchant account fees up to high heaven. The sad fact is, in most cases, if you get FRAUDED on the Internet... it's not really Paypal responsibility to protect you from losing your money. They're simply transporting money from here to there.
If someone on the other side STEALS your merchandise... you're dealing with a serious problem. Not Paypal... YOU. Imagine the type of scams you could run if Paypal absorbed the blame... "Oh, running a little short this month, I guess I'll get my friend to buy something expensive from me, and then chargeback. I'll say I sent it, and Paypal won't be the wiser!"
Internet commerce doesn't end with sitting back and watching the money roll in, while you pay a percentage for transaction fees. FRAUD is a huge worry, and faulting Paypal in my opinion often misses the point.
I'm not a Paypal apologist, but most of those complaining have to realize that Paypal deals with this stuff DAY IN DAY OUT. If they took the dive on every single fraud instance without specific RULES and PROCEDURES... then they'd be out of business. Gone. No more Paypal. Fine by you? Well, don't use it then. I appreciate them as an option FAR more than the CCNOW's, IBILLS, and CCBILLS of this world (which have had to tack more and more fees on since their inception, due to wranglings with Visa and Mastercard).
I've said many times before, Paypal has certain rules and procedures. Sometimes you end up on the STUPID side of those rules. Like once I perchased software from a misleading ad on eBay. The Paypal screen said I was protected, but on looking to reverse the charge through buyer protection (which I paid extra for), Paypal's fine print said that software wasn't covered (among other things). I ended up keeping the software and cutting my loses... but now I'm better informed.
Again, Paypal is far fro the anti-christ. They've done good by me, but I'm aware that "good" is only a balancing act. There should be LESS "PayPal Sucks" websites out there, and more CONSUMER AWARENESS websites that seek to inform and armor website business owners against the various and sundry repercussions of doing business on the Internet. Paypal certain deserves its own user's manual. I think they have one though.
~ Nexus
How did you merchant account provider handle it that was better?
This is an important question, because I'm willing to bet that many people doing business online through Paypal, have NEVER had their own merchant account... do not know about the evils of CHARGE BACKS, and haven't had to deal with mounting fraudulent charges like car crashes, driving your merchant account fees up to high heaven. The sad fact is, in most cases, if you get FRAUDED on the Internet... it's not really Paypal responsibility to protect you from losing your money. They're simply transporting money from here to there.
If someone on the other side STEALS your merchandise... you're dealing with a serious problem. Not Paypal... YOU. Imagine the type of scams you could run if Paypal absorbed the blame... "Oh, running a little short this month, I guess I'll get my friend to buy something expensive from me, and then chargeback. I'll say I sent it, and Paypal won't be the wiser!"
Internet commerce doesn't end with sitting back and watching the money roll in, while you pay a percentage for transaction fees. FRAUD is a huge worry, and faulting Paypal in my opinion often misses the point.
I'm not a Paypal apologist, but most of those complaining have to realize that Paypal deals with this stuff DAY IN DAY OUT. If they took the dive on every single fraud instance without specific RULES and PROCEDURES... then they'd be out of business. Gone. No more Paypal. Fine by you? Well, don't use it then. I appreciate them as an option FAR more than the CCNOW's, IBILLS, and CCBILLS of this world (which have had to tack more and more fees on since their inception, due to wranglings with Visa and Mastercard).
I've said many times before, Paypal has certain rules and procedures. Sometimes you end up on the STUPID side of those rules. Like once I perchased software from a misleading ad on eBay. The Paypal screen said I was protected, but on looking to reverse the charge through buyer protection (which I paid extra for), Paypal's fine print said that software wasn't covered (among other things). I ended up keeping the software and cutting my loses... but now I'm better informed.
Again, Paypal is far fro the anti-christ. They've done good by me, but I'm aware that "good" is only a balancing act. There should be LESS "PayPal Sucks" websites out there, and more CONSUMER AWARENESS websites that seek to inform and armor website business owners against the various and sundry repercussions of doing business on the Internet. Paypal certain deserves its own user's manual. I think they have one though.
~ Nexus
If paypal was "good" dont you think they would have alittle more customer support to back up their service. They are very quick to sell you their service....but when an email is sent to them...they often dont reply or a reply comes weeks later.
My problem is not with someone getting by with one fraudulant act...well actually it is...but thats not why i am writing this.... When someone commits fraud on paypal against me, and i contact paypal about this... paypal takes no imediate action against the person if they fight back....infact.... paypal takes the buyers side more ofter then not.
The person I bought the bikes from took my money ($10,000) after i sent it to her FROM YES, my own merchant account. After the money was recieved by her, she withdrew the money and emptied her bank account.
Should someone with an empty bank account be able to own a paypal account without funds to back up their earnings?
My customers got mad bc some didnt get their products. So they made complaints and charge backs..and instead of paypal going right to the main cause, or TRYING OR ATTEMPTING to find out what was going on...they granted ALL of the chargebacks so that i had to pay about half the people back with my own money.
What is worse... my supplier didnt send me tracking numbers...even for the few bikes that went out (since she was uncontactable) the people that got their products found out about this...and filed for chargebacks as well.... PEOPLE THAT GOT THEIR PRODUCTS ALSO GOT REFUNDED!!? is that fair?
Also...without any athority of the owner of the account... is it fair to take that money from the owner? If someone files a chargeback or even a dispute...the money that is being disputed over is put into escrow untill its worked out...that can really mess people up!
Paypal deals with a lot of money...and i think that a company that has access to that much money...including millions of bank accounts throughout the world....should have much better customer support AT THE LEAST...they should also ATLEAST HELP to recover money that is lost instead of locking an account in hopes the porblem will go away.
Nexus some things are worth just letting go and "cutting your losses" but i dont think that pertains to a loss to grand theft
My account was locked and has been locked since... paypal did nothing to help me...nothing at all...
Andrew
My problem is not with someone getting by with one fraudulant act...well actually it is...but thats not why i am writing this.... When someone commits fraud on paypal against me, and i contact paypal about this... paypal takes no imediate action against the person if they fight back....infact.... paypal takes the buyers side more ofter then not.
The person I bought the bikes from took my money ($10,000) after i sent it to her FROM YES, my own merchant account. After the money was recieved by her, she withdrew the money and emptied her bank account.
Should someone with an empty bank account be able to own a paypal account without funds to back up their earnings?
My customers got mad bc some didnt get their products. So they made complaints and charge backs..and instead of paypal going right to the main cause, or TRYING OR ATTEMPTING to find out what was going on...they granted ALL of the chargebacks so that i had to pay about half the people back with my own money.
What is worse... my supplier didnt send me tracking numbers...even for the few bikes that went out (since she was uncontactable) the people that got their products found out about this...and filed for chargebacks as well.... PEOPLE THAT GOT THEIR PRODUCTS ALSO GOT REFUNDED!!? is that fair?
Also...without any athority of the owner of the account... is it fair to take that money from the owner? If someone files a chargeback or even a dispute...the money that is being disputed over is put into escrow untill its worked out...that can really mess people up!
Paypal deals with a lot of money...and i think that a company that has access to that much money...including millions of bank accounts throughout the world....should have much better customer support AT THE LEAST...they should also ATLEAST HELP to recover money that is lost instead of locking an account in hopes the porblem will go away.
Nexus some things are worth just letting go and "cutting your losses" but i dont think that pertains to a loss to grand theft
My account was locked and has been locked since... paypal did nothing to help me...nothing at all...
Andrew
I've used their support just fine. Their customer support phone number is on their website if you sign into your account. I've talked to them on a number of occassions. Sometimes I ended up just being pissed, sometimes they answered my question and I just didn't like the answer. Everytime however, I got support. They weren't exactly non-existant. Moreover, I NEVER buy into anyone doing tech support by e-mail. If they answer you quickly, it usually some system that they're using to forward FAQ questions to you. eNom has done pretty good for support, but usually the solutions amount to pushing a few buttons. eCommerce is much more complicated and frought with repercussions. The problems I've had with PayPal, I've had with my local bank branch. Getting caught in "policy".Domainsell1387 said:
And what happened when you called the toll-free number?Domainsell1387 said:
Ok.Domainsell1387 said:
Ok. This is bad why?Domainsell1387 said:
A friend of mine paid for a computer on eBay via money-order. Afterwards, he learned that the seller was a fraud, and was reselling the same computer package to many people just to get their money and run. He was one of the unfortunate ones. Many of the others he learned had used a credit card, and were able to charge-back. Chargebacks are a consumer mechanism that allows a credit card holder to simply STOP a payment they already made. Usually the credit company puts the burden on the merchant to PROVE the buyer actually GOT what they purchased. Often, the merchants have to swallow the costs if there's no proof, and suffer added fees to their merchant service for the percentage chargebacks make of their total transactions (in addition to the amount charged back).Domainsell1387 said:
And Paypal knows how much money is in the bank account, how?Domainsell1387 said:
That's what payment services do. The buyer is usually protected more than the merchant. The merchant needs to protect themselves. Like I said, this really sounds like a merchant education issue. We need a LOT more of it on the Internet.Domainsell1387 said:
Is it supposed to be? Paypal has NO responsibility to become your intimate business partner, and protect you from everyone that is out to damage you financially. They provide a service. They transfer money. Merchants are ULTIMATELY responsible for keeping their customers happy.Domainsell1387 said:
If you're asking that, I suggest you REALLY read your terms of service for Paypal. If they warned you they might do this, you have little reason to complain about it happening under the exact conditions they describe and you agreed to.Domainsell1387 said:
Ergo, PaypalSucks.com. eNom holds all money I make through registration services for 3 months I think. Making sure there are NO chargebacks before they release the funds. If there is fraud... my commission goes bye-bye.Domainsell1387 said:
Realising how much money they deal with day to day, you have to realize they OWE their customers *stability* in that they don't suddenly go out of business due to massive fraud across their system. People actively try to SCAM over Paypal EVERYDAY. Maybe even every HOUR of everyday. Temporarily shutting down a suspicious account is the LEAST they can do to make sure things don't spiral out of control.Domainsell1387 said:
So, you're taking action against this woman who stole your money?Domainsell1387 said:
I feel for you. I'm not sure I've heard any reason for Paypal to be involved in your dispute with the woman who ripped you off. Paypal (or whatever merchant service you use) can't be the scapegoat for deals that go bad.Domainsell1387 said:
I've heard complaints about Paypal where Paypal was the ONLY reason for serious grief to a merchant. I'll get behind someone with that type of complaint anyday of the week. While I sympathize with YOUR type of complaint... I think Paypal has done everything in keeping with what their TOS says they'd do. I haven't heard if you've called them yet and couldn't get through either. I've e-mailed other companies before, and had them ignore my mail, only to later find out the problem had NOTHING to do with them. While I didn't appreciate the stiffness with which they may have handled the case, it's important to note that time is money, and people will quickly complain to the party that responds, moreso than the parties they SHOULD BE contacting. That equals a losing proposition for companies like Paypal, providing LOW-COST merchant services to a International audience containing legions of issues that may have NOTHING to do with them.
That's still my take. Again... Paypal pisses me off too sometimes. When they're wrong, I'll be to the front of the line saying so. I don't get on "band wagons" though when I think the wagon is rolling in the wrong direction.
~ Nexus
sarcasm and putting down others ohh ok
Domainsell1387 said:I will gladly admit the united states has far more scammers then the UK...
Its always someone trying to pull over a quick one!
...by the way... anyone interested in buying "abc.com" from me for only $5,000? (just a joke)
- Impact
- 254
armstrong said:You want to make a big corporation like Paypal care? Talk to a lawyer about starting a class-action suit, then get all your olnine friends to help find other Paypal fraud victims (shouldn't be too hard). If you end up with a multi-million $ settlement, don't forget to send me a free ipod.
Already been done (The lawsuit, not your iPod
)-Allan
In short: PayPal allows people to pay with stolen credit card #'s (True, they may not promote the idea, but either was PayPal gets their cut) and tells the seller that the payment has gone through. Then, up to 60 days later, they say "oops, we need our money back" and you're out the cash.
Also, they will hold a seller's funds for up to 180 days (Or forever) because 1 buyer claims to have not received their item/service. And not just new sellers, I had my first complaint after almost 150 sucessful transactions on 1 PayPal account, and sure enough they froze my account.
-Allan
IAmAllanShore said:
Exactally allan... without any athority whatso ever.
NEXUS- sure they have customer service that you may think cares...but do you think that they really do. Will your specific problem affect the pay that this one specific rep will get? He/she will act like they care... but they hear it and they hear it a lot..everyday. One that hears something so much gets use to it and i seriously doubt that they can care for each and every person that complains.....The way i look at it...they did not do everything they could to help me..because if that were so i would not have lost a penny.
You can quote me on everything I said and debate anything all you want...but i stand by every word i said.
"Ok. This is bad why?"
Originally Posted by Domainsell1387 "The person I bought the bikes from took my money ($10,000) after i sent it to her FROM YES, my own merchant account. After the money was recieved by her, she withdrew the money and emptied her bank account."
This is bad nexus... because its not always the sellers fault... in the case i was involved in...yes it was the sellers fault....But when customers that already got their bikes also filed for chargebacks...paypal leaned there way as the buyer.
Paypal has a dispute resolution section.... the dispute was not worked out...or worked with at that matter.
I am not going to argue about this, nor do i have time to argue about this... my opinion about paypal is certainly far diffrent then yours. Though i respect your opinion...I do not agree.
I for one think that there are many things that need to be done to paypal to make it more secure... as you can see fraud is starting to heat up (almost as much as domains on ebay and afternic have)
I will settle with our diffrences... we will agree to disagree because i am certain that both are minds are made up about this matter...
Andrew Shaw
}P-A-Y-P-A-L->
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Whenever I talk to large companies these days, I make a note to get the NAME of the rep I'm speaking to. I make a note of what we spoke about, and I make sure I bring this up the next time I call, intentionally escalating my issue systematically. When I've talked via the phone before with Paypal (and some other companies), I've gotten E-MAILS from them following up, asking if my problem was resolved satisfactorily. Here's one I got early last year.Domainsell1387 said:
Does that mean they care? Well, Paypal in turn uses the e-mail to rate the person that I spoke with and presumeably whether they'll do well in their next performance review... In this case, in retrospect, I was complaining about something specific to how the service organized its information.
As you say, I can agree to disagree at that point then.
If you feel using a payment service that CARES means you should never lose any money while conducting business on the Internet, that is your perogative. I'm just concerned about others that take this position as well, so hopefully the comments I have made gives others some food for thought on the matter.
Again, I'm not about celebrating the "wonderful world of Paypal"... I'm just hoping that in the future when I have a problem with Paypal screwing up my account with an error or a service not working properly, I'm not battling to get attention, waiting on hold indefinitely, lost in a sea of people with customers and/or suppliers who are stiffing them while they try desperately to get Paypal to absorb their cost of doing business with crooks.
CUSTOMER -> PAYPAL -> Business 1 -> PAYPAL -> Business 2
a.) CUSTOMER
b.) PAYPAL
b.) BUSINESS 1 - Paypal user 1
c.) BUSINESS 2 (drop shipper) - Paypal user 2
If CUSTOMER charges back on Paypal they're screwed. So, the refund money immediately if there's a complaint. Now where is the money? They need to take it back from somewhere. They take it from Business 1. Business 1 then complains that Business 2 conducted a fraud. Paypal suspends Business 2's account, but their checking account is empty, and they're long gone, so no refund is possible. Just sucks. I would recommend Business 1 sues Business 2, and tracks them to the ends of the earth.
Quite a few people selling domain names have been frauded through various payment systems by people charging back through the service.
Allan, your comment makes no sense. Let's say I use a stolen credit card to pay YOU for something. I get the goods and run off. The REAL owner of the credit card performs a CHARGEBACK to Paypal when they see the fraudulent charges. Paypal then takes the money BACK from you. Follow the logic... where is Paypal making ANY money on that deal?IAmAllanShore said:
In fact, they need to pay the administrative fees, and hopefully absorb the chargeback so that their rates do not go up across the board. It is only twisted logic that assumes Paypal is somehow *profiting* from having fraud perpetrated through their system. *PROMOTE* it? I honestly feel bad for people who are victimized. Seller OR buyer. I feel worst if they're chasing dust bunnies instead of determining how to more adequately protect themselves out there. That said... Paypal DOES offer buyer and seller protection systems... but you guys really have to read the details on it (there are important exclusions).
I worked for a LARGE online eCommerce company out there, and I've heard the stories. Have you heard this? There are actually GANGS out there that traffic in stolen credit cards, and go to companies like Amazon.com or Buy.com, and buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise. They see how much they can push through, and move on to hit the next online store, and then come back. WHO do you think gets hurt most?
The customer who's credit card was stolen? Or... the credit card companies? Or... the merchants who sold the goods and shipped them off after the credit transaction went through (later to be reversed)?
When you can answer that question correctly, I think you'll begin to appreciate how dangerous doing business online is, who is most responsible for what, and how much education and preparation can do to help people be successful and avoid being vicitims. It's really that important.
~ Nexus
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- Impact
- 32,449
Well I agree when you getscrewed that sucks but what can paypal do it was meant for small transactions and has grown because a lot of users way back when could not get approved for a merchant account. But I also thinkthis comes down to VIsaand Internet Sellers like Amazon and Ebay want the buyer to know they can never get scammed think about a few years ago most would not put their credit card on the computerVisa has gone out of its way to say you can't be screwed you can chargeback. All merchants need to know this becuase there are more potential customers than merchants they will always take the side of the customer. with all the transactions how can it be proved if I say I did not receive tickets chargeback how can Paypal prove who is telling the truth. You have to take paypal from only verified members and Paypal should have a rating system.
Armstrong your point is a good one But How does NOCHEX shoulder that seems like a company could go out of business shouldering a billion dollars ayear in Business just 10% chargeback or illicit activity a lot of money.
Armstrong your point is a good one But How does NOCHEX shoulder that seems like a company could go out of business shouldering a billion dollars ayear in Business just 10% chargeback or illicit activity a lot of money.
Paypal FORCES Paypal users to get VERIFIED if they do a certain amount of volume through the service. If you do not get VERIFIED, they eventually cut you off. Also, you cannot accept CREDIT CARD payments unless you are a "business account" with Paypal.armstrong said:
Verified means that you've connected your Paypal account with a bank that will in a sense "vouch" for you being who you say you are. You can only charge/pay up to like $1,600 or something without being verified. Prior to verification, you're essentially like anyone else using a credit card on the Internet. You enter all the billing and credit card info, and you put the card through. Regarding the information you have available... on a verified buyer, you have their legal name (the one they were verified with, or from their credit card). That's about it.
Sometimes wreckless guarantees are made by underdogs in a competitive space. They sit with crossed fingers and toss and turn through restless nights. I think people need to be as responsible as possible with doing business online. Also, I'm more than a bit skeptical as to how much this "guarantee" may extend to (read further down below).armstrong said:
There's some really good tips here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/sellertips
I also agree Armstrongs point is a good one, and equity78, regarding what you're saying, that's my point exactly. Unfortunately in the case mentioned in this situation, I'm pretty sure nochex would have a problem shouldering $10,000 worth of fraud. Nochex statement also makes this reveal comment:equity78 said:
Clearly Paypal is not alone in not shouldering risks for chargebacks. Paypal also tries to make things *sound* more safe than they turn out to be. I remember hearing a lot of grumbling regarding 2checkout too. A friend of mine ran a business that essentially put their merchant account at risk for the benefit of their customers, and he quickly realized that he could not do the volume to make up for the fraud an chargebacks his customers were getting.
There is a VERY REAL FEAR of BUYING on the Internet. I wince everytime I hear someone proclaim loud and proud that they would NEVER buy anything online. --Yet, that's the point of view of MANY. Some feel more inclined to use Paypal than ONLY use their credit card (fear of having it stolen).
There is LESS a fear of SELLING on the Internet. Because the potential profit is SO large, the risks to the SELLER can be outweighed by the benefit. However, if the customers simply REFUSE to do business on the Internet for fear of having their credit card stolen... EVERYONE loses out. That's why its so "easy" to do a chargeback if a customer has a problem for any reason.
Also, its worth noting that DROPSHIP arrangements are risky.
I've consider doing dropship myself, but haven't had the time to look into it yet. The situation discribed in this thread is a cautionary tale MORE about drop shipping, than Paypal. The idea that someone might take all the money I was paid, and NOT ship the merchandise, and leave me with irate customers is utterly horrifying. Knowing that this could happen, I might say I would specifically seek out a merchant services provider who would protect me if such a thing were to happen.
If someone can find a merchant service that would insure I would never get saddled with any bill in such a situation I'd like to know. In fact, I'll call nochex this week and run this scenario by them and see if that falls under their guanrantee. I wouldn't bet on being satisfied.
* Just look at what the TOS says:
http://help.nochex.com/messages/?Action=Q&ID=223
Worth reading closely.
~ Nexus
Nexus said:
Nexus has a point here. Since the buyers did not receive the goods, then they are certainly entitled to get their money back from the seller, as in domainresell's dropship-related case. Getting money back from the dropshipper - when Paypal can't get the funds from the dropshipper's Paypal - would be domainresell's burden.
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