Why LLL.coms are no longer "safe" bets

fonzie_007 · Feb 24, 2008

I do not consider LLL.com "risk free" bets anymore. While LLL.coms used to be a great way to flip a domain and make a pretty penny, that is increasingly no longer the case due to the increased risk. Now, there is greater risk putting large sums of money into a domain that could quite easily be taken from you in a UDRP. While 3L domains used to be sacred (e.g. assuming the registrant wasn't stupid, no one would be able to take the domain from him/her in a UDRP process). However, the sad fact is that WIPO and NAF have increasingly been willing to allow 3L domains to be taken away from the registrant.

This being said, anytime you have an asking price >$1,300 for a domain that could be subject to a UDRP, you are running a real risk of losing your domain. And yes, just about any LLL domain could be subject to a UDRP (due to the fact lots of businesses have three letter acronyms).

Put simply, why pay $8k+ for a LLL.com (or ~$1k for a LLL.net) right now when:

(1) the revenue/traffic on the domains are generally poor;
(2) any end user could spend $1,300 plus some attorneys fees and possibly take the domain from you in an UDRP; and
(3) the amount of domainers able/willing to purchase the domain back from you is a relatively small amount of people.

Better bets in the LLL marketspace are .orgs, .us, .biz, .info, and .mobis. Because these LLL domains are lower priced, even if you are faced with a person threatening a UDRP, it will be cheaper for the person to buy the domain from you than go to UDRP (and you, as the seller, will still be able to make a return selling the domain).

In other words, if you spend $150 on a LLL domain and someone threatens a UDRP, you can offer to sell the domain for anything under ~$1,500 and the person threatening the action probably will just buy the domain from you.

NOTE: Nothing in this post is meant to be supportive of cybersquatting or using domains to infringe on a third party's intelluctual property.

rudyhernandez · Feb 25, 2008

Reece said:
I prefer LLLL.coms to LLL.coms for the main reason that I can solicit offers with no risk of repercussions, however LLL.coms do have their place in my portfolio and should have a place in any serious domain name investors portfolio, imho.

Agreed.
Good thread.
:gl:

Andrei P. · Feb 25, 2008

Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

-NC- · Feb 25, 2008

italiandragon said:
This is nothing new and the same would happen to LLL.org/info or .us so your point is dismissed.

It seems rather than you are disapponted by the LLL.us performance but by bashing the .com I don`t think you are going to get anywhere for LLL.us

I think you're missing a critical point that fonzie is making.
- LLL.com is now so valuable that it makes more financial sense to go for UDRP.
- LLL.org/us is not as valuable, so making an offer to purchase makes more financial sense than the UDRP route.

-REECE- · Feb 25, 2008

You're right Ergo. But at the same time, a motivated enduser likely won't "go fishing" with you if they see you already have a serious online presence.

As for your first question, yes you can lose a pure acronym domain if it's parked and a trademark is registered on that name afterwards.

As for question #2, domains registered solely to profit off redirects can be seen as "bad faith" (eg. not putting the domain to good use). A simple page with links (as you've suggested) could lose if the complainant starts bringing up facts about you being a domainer, brings up evidence that you have a track record of registering domains in bad faith, or have similar names setup with this identical parked page.

All in all, alot of it really depends on who you get for a panelist... Some of them would likely side with the complainant if they merely found out you were a member of a domaining board and that the name wasn't developed. In the case of a valuable name, I'd always recommend going with 3 panelists.

Ergo said:
Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

netklick · Feb 25, 2008

Ergo said:
Develop it! Do you think it's easy to develop a domain? What about developing 1000+ domains? Also it seems that developing domain greatly decreasing chances of domain to be sold to possible end-user. End user goes to the site, sees that it's not parking page but developed site and goes away not even making an offer.

BTW is it possible to loose pure acronym domain like MDCK.com to UDRP if it's parked and it was registered before possible MDCK trademark is registered?

Is there a guaranteed and easy steps to avoid loosing domain but still with earning on traffic? What about creating a network of 1000+ domains parking pages and putting ads only related to something neutral, for example download mp3 or apply for credit to evade possible wrong ads.

When I said develop the domains, I didn't mean make 1000s of unique sites. Will never get it done that way.

I think I am doing exactly what you were saying - developing neutral contents. The site I've developed and tested so far is sqsv.com which now I am in the process of migrating to all my LLLL dot coms (example - blxo.com, auqs.com, fqxd.com, etc). Once completed, I will have more than 500 sites with similar contents and it will look like Parked pages but it is my site. Users can sign up and submit content and it will become a network of over 500 sites and possibly more. I am hopeful this will work out for me.

I did spend some time making the first site (sqsv), but now it is easy to migrate to other domain names. Also Google has so far indexed over 9000 pages from SQSV, which is a great news and it is getting ton of traffic today than it would have with parked pages.

Andrei P. · Feb 25, 2008

I did spend some time making the first site (sqsv), but now it is easy to migrate to other domain names. Also Google has so far indexed over 9000 pages from SQSV, which is a great news and it is getting ton of traffic today than it would have with parked pages.

There are some weak points in your system
1. I've been developing a lot of articles sites and there are very often banned by Google for not unique content.
2. If you have 9000 articles you will be soon receiving from different companies complaints about content of these articles.
3. If similar articles will be on 500 sites all of them either will be glued or banned.

italiandragon · Feb 25, 2008

-NC- said:
I think you're missing a critical point that fonzie is making.
- LLL.com is now so valuable that it makes more financial sense to go for UDRP.
- LLL.org/us is not as valuable, so making an offer to purchase makes more financial sense than the UDRP route.

Tomorrow I`ll start a TM on whatever name I like and then I`ll ask to PayPal to give me

X.COM

then I`ll go for the LL.com , imagine how dumb are people buying domains in the 5 or 6 or even 7 figures range......they could simply fill a UDRP right?

:bah:

dag · Feb 25, 2008

italiandragon said:
and .mobis. : :bah: , I got a load of them and no one cares about them.

You just can't expect to sell them here, Lorenzo. Put any of them up for auction at Sedo, and you'll get at least $200 for each...

sdtrader · Feb 25, 2008

You'll have to excuse my relative ignorance on this subject but the following questions come to mind.

1)Regardless of my care in looking after my rights to the domain, am I willing to go through the trouble and cost of defending it against overzealous reverse domain hijacking. Even if I had legal grounds to win the case, chances are I would be outspent and submit by default to any company who look at $1300 as a petty cash expense.
How much did the owner of AVG.com lose in legal costs on top of the loss of his investment.

2)In terms of dealing with section 3 of the complaint, it has been suggested that the absence of a parked page is sufficient or at least beneficial in showing lack of bad faith. However profit by sale or intended sale may also be a a factor and that may be hard to deny if one has a record of selling domains for profit.Worse yet would be to advertise or list the name for sale.

3)If i do not indicate that I am selling the name, my chances are reduced dramatically and I'm probably only going to get spam requests to sell it for $60 or fishing email from the complainant asking me what price I had in mind for selling it. In any case I would need to be suspicious of any such inquiry.

4)As for putting up unrelated ads I cannot see the point because the profit would be so minimal as to not warrant adding this factor into the complainants objection.

Again, I am not as familiar as some of you in this area and as such this type of investment would be risky for me as it would for others in the same situation.I would tend to buy 50 LLLL.coms as an alternative to owning a single LLL.

italiandragon · Feb 25, 2008

dag said:
You just can't expect to sell them here, Lorenzo. Put any of them up for auction at Sedo, and you'll get at least $200 for each...

oh yeah that`s great...

I paid $300 for VPO.mobi (Video Poker Online was a good one...)

If I have to sell in loss I`ll rather keep them

fonzie_007 · Feb 25, 2008

italiandragon said:
Tomorrow I`ll start a TM on whatever name I like and then I`ll ask to PayPal to give me

X.COM

then I`ll go for the LL.com , imagine how dumb are people buying domains in the 5 or 6 or even 7 figures range......they could simply fill a UDRP right?

:bah:

What you are talking about is reverse domain hijacking. It does happens, but in these circumstances the registrant usually wins the UDRP.

I'm dealing with a situation right now of a company threatening a UDRP on a LLLL.com of mine, which I've explained to them would be reverse hijacking. I have yet to see what the outcome will be.

accent · Feb 26, 2008

Isn't this what Rick Schwartz has been blowing the horn about?

There needs to be a clear line between domaining and cybersquating, a difficult thing to draw. There also needs to be a filter so that domain owners are not forced to spend thousands of dollars to defend against obvious reverse hijackings.

versu23 · Feb 26, 2008

This is maybe the best thread for many many months. Fonzie is right. There will be a problem in the near future with th LLL.com and in my opinion also with some others LLL.org for example once the average price will reach 600$ let's say. In an end-user is coming to Buy rre.org for ex and you'll ask 2500$, you can have the big problem fonzie is talking about.

italiandragon · Feb 26, 2008

versu23 said:
This is maybe the best thread for many many months. Fonzie is right. There will be a problem in the near future with th LLL.com and in my opinion also with some others LLL.org for example once the average price will reach 600$ let's say. In an end-user is coming to Buy rre.org for ex and you'll ask 2500$, you can have the big problem fonzie is talking about.

some end users make it a principle: I read people rather paying $1,500 for a UDRP rather than buying the name for $800 simply because they did not want to pay what media define "cybersquatters" :yell:

This problem is not only about LLL , but the whole domain industry.

You want a good example? Just google how many domains someone like Andy Tran of SmartBuy has lost.

Pound · Feb 26, 2008

italiandragon said:
orgs : no one really is going to pay much for a LLL.org

:yell: . This is one of the most inaccurate statements I have ever heard. Only recently I had a $xx,xxx sale for a 3L .org while the .com and .net were parked. Think about the potential userbase for .org; charities, organisations, etc. - these all have a ridiciulous amount of money available for such assets as a good domain name. Fair enough Gold.net is worth more than Gold.org (because of the extension's use), however, when it comes to LLLs it is an entirely different story.

I have been saying for months how undervalued LLL.orgs are on the reseller market. The main reason for this is the mentaility that resellers have ("They are a charity so they have no money"). This is completely wrong and you will find that the reason the LLL.org market look weak on the surface is that virtually all the high value sales will be done privately through WHOIS, etc. (this is how I was contacted); thus leading to an apparently weak market. In fact, it is entirely the opposite.

Morgan · Feb 26, 2008

In my opinion i believe that LLL.com's will continue to rise with the increase in LLLL.com value and due to the amount of high sales LLL.com's have been generating lately.

snoop · Feb 26, 2008

gooster said:
:yell: . This is one of the most inaccurate statements I have ever heard. Only recently I had a $xx,xxx sale for a 3L .org while the .com and .net were parked. Think about the potential userbase for .org; charities, organisations, etc. - these all have a ridiciulous amount of money available for such assets as a good domain name. Fair enough Gold.net is worth more than Gold.org (because of the extension's use), however, when it comes to LLLs it is an entirely different story.

I have been saying for months how undervalued LLL.orgs are on the reseller market. The main reason for this is the mentaility that resellers have ("They are a charity so they have no money"). This is completely wrong and you will find that the reason the LLL.org market look weak on the surface is that virtually all the high value sales will be done privately through WHOIS, etc. (this is how I was contacted); thus leading to an apparently weak market. In fact, it is entirely the opposite.

There is not much to be gained from talking about one sale as though it is a good indication of the market. I have to agree with the post above that 3 leter .org sales are typically on the low end.

-REECE- · Feb 27, 2008

Something perhaps not previously considered is the amount of domainers that are now flush with cash thanks to LLLL.coms that are looking to diversify elsewhere... I don't see many of them turning their backs on the short dotcoms that made them their fortune. I'd imagine there's at least 100 (and this number is growing every week!) NPers whose LLLL.com holdings are worth $25k+, so there may certainly be alot of new players coming into the LLL.com market in the near future.

Morgan said:
In my opinion i believe that LLL.com's will continue to rise with the increase in LLLL.com value and due to the amount of high sales LLL.com's have been generating lately.

VURG · Mar 3, 2008

I expect them to hit six figures in the next 2 decades.

Not touching them though. Too expensive for my budget.

snoop · Mar 3, 2008

Interestingly lll.com saw only a $100 rise last month at the minimum level according to 3character.com, I think that is the lowest rise in quite a long time (will be interesting to see if falls are recorded in a month or two). Whilst I own quite a few I think the rises over the last few months is going against the general market which is in decline, and hard to really see a good reason for 3 letter .com's to be marching to a different beat like they have been.

That said I don't agree with fonzies point about udrp's being a good reason not to own, that is a longshot risk, as he has stated he has found 67 lost via UDRP, (if they are all .com-not stated) that is 0.381% lost in 8 years, ie 1 in 300. At that rate the average 3 letter .com (if you assume all have equal legal risk-which they obviously don't since they ones lost as usually very obvious names like avg.com) can be expect to be lost in the year 3208 (1200 years time)

Regarding LLLL.com's they seem to have passed their peak, with the worst ones now at the $40 level.

Why LLL.coms are no longer "safe" bets

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