Located in General Domain Discussion, started by Jaco, Mar 12, 2010
What is the actual solution to that though?
My portion of my strategy would be:
1. Create A Desirable Inventory
It all begins with the right inventory. BIDO must proactively reach out to the right people to obtain the needed inventories. Sahar Sarid is a member of the big-boy domainer club. None of his comrades were willing to be guinea pigs when the site first started out and none of them are willing to list at BIDO auction now, given that it isn't an appropriate venue for the types of names that they own (effectively confirming their initial reticence). I believe a decent incentive to get these people interested and on board would be to invest in some disk space and operate a coefficient domain name classified service, alongside the auction service. At minimum, it would help to create a nexus between 'desirable names' and the BIDO brand. The classified service, however, cannot be a 'public option'. No more than I can sell limited edition Elvis Presley Collector Plates at a Sothebys auction, in order for the marketplace to attain relevance, there must be the strictest protocols for quality. The names like the ones you've been selling lately, Snoop, would be the types of names that would qualify.
1a. Since there are already any number of domain name classified services out there and the standard-bearers have been established- trying to unseat SEDO as the gold standard would be like trying to raise a competing auction service to Ebay- you must identify the weaknesses and deficiencies of the existing services and exploit them to your advantage. Paradoxically, "Quality" is the engine that drives value in domain names, yet now that we're light years past the threshold of peak-domaining, is now the most underserved segment of the domain name aftermarket.
1b. SEDO's present achilles heel is that, much like almost every other totally 'free for all' domain aftermarket, the quality ratio has become tremendously off kilter, making it impossible to monitor the aggregate inventory for the types of names that attract the 'right kind of buyers'. This has a substantial impact on user experience, thus, any upstart competing marketplace should have strict protocols to vet quality. This can only be accomplished with a human eye, by people who sincerely comprehend what constitutes salable qualities in a domain name.
Summary: By utilizing some simple and inexpensive add-ons to their existing infrastructure, BIDO could capture a desirable yet undeserved market that could simultaneously create added interest in their auction operations. By establishing themselves as a premier marketplace for quality names (albeit in a static format, as opposed to the more 'exciting' auctions), this would serve two roles. It would add value to the existing brand and it would likely have a trickle-down effect into the quality of the auctions. It would require active marketing and 'if you build it, they will come' is not an adequate strategy when trying to develop a coherent, focused marketplace, however, it seems that the two operations would be synergistic and simultaneously beneficial.
I could probably write 20 pages on this (with about 10 of them dedicated to the fact that this strategy is very long term, would take time to generate the right inventory and the cash-burn rate would have to be kept very, very low), but it seems to be the only way to attain relevance in the existing, well defined marketplace. Opening a new auction site to fling around crap names for pennies and nickles isn't a good idea. I'll stop now for the sake of everyone's attention span, and also because it isn't like I'm getting a check for any of this.
I think the voting idea is one of the better ideas out there. The names arent there because the buyers arent there, but i dont believe it's a chicken or the egg scenerio. IMO its because the market is stagnent and owners are holding names.
LLL.com Prices Continue to Fall
July 2, 2008
Would this domain get 5k today?
Bottom line I think Bido is a WHOLESALE domain marketplace. By domainers for domainers, your not going to get end user prices. It is a very good barometer for the current domainer economy.
15k wholesale for pepe in 2010? Obviously.
Does not our voting system do just that?
You can't just blame the market. In a booming market I really doubt the quality would be better. The domain industry is depressed but it is still relatively liquid. Bido just isn't know as a place for listing high quality names. Other venues do still have high quality listings despite the market downturn.
No, the market has fallen further, that doesn't say anything good or bad for bido. Some of the comments in that post are ironic to read almsot 2 years later though.
I think people in this thread are more hoping to see higher quality listings at prices comparable to Sedo or a Traffic auction. Obviously no auction house is ever going to get enduser prices.
Regarding that post on domainbits, some of us may remember when Bido predicted the market trend for three letter .com domains to head in the south direction. It was noted in another post on the very blog. When people couldn't believe what was happening to the values of three letter .coms, and wanted to blame the platform, prices fell everywhere that had inventory movement just days later. This further strengthened the value of analyzing sales patterns on Bido and taking the results seriously. Your liquid value of your domain is what it is, plain and simple. These values change over time based on many factors, some of which of course are who will see your auction (and who will subsequently show up to bid).
With starting bids at Bido as low as $28 if sellers so decide, we bring new investors looking to invest smaller increments, spread thinner, who are still scaling their businesses, and who will grow accordingly. Buy at levels you can afford to invest, sell when you feel is the right time. There are deals today at Bido, make the most of it.
Often we read about people mentioning after an auction they would have paid more than the high bid. This is why I advise to integrate with the inventory files (we have CSV downloads available on our site) and set some triggers to let you know when something to your standard is up on the auction block. Head over to elance.com or scriptlance.com and hire a coder if you can't build it yourself. Invest a few dollars to build a tool to parse the list and run it against metrics that mean something to you. Show your coder our CSV download URLs and explain to them how to extract the valuable domains (tailored to what you think is valuable).
Or do it by hand and eye and use your gut judgment. We send emails each day of the day's upcoming inventory. Register for an account and you'll get those emails. You can also adjust the time of the day that you want the email to arrive.
Take the listings seriously, each is so unique and easy to overlook if you rush when you review the daily inventory. The mining opportunities today are different than they were a few years ago, but they exist if you know where to look and find them.
Live auctions CSV:
Upcoming auctions CSV:
And our Recent Sales CSV:
It is true that there was alot of denial about price falls at that time, blaming the venue or citing some other unrealistic reason (other than the obvious: value falls).
Huh? You really think many people are doing to do that. It is a bit like some parking companies years ago expected people to design their own landing page and provide their own dns.....If you want people to be doing this then it might actually be your job to create?
We're working on it from our end as well. We'll introduce additional ways to watch for and locate items of interest.
No, it doesn't.
In regards to "strict protocols to vet quality", this is one of the core reasons that Vote For Profits was introduced. There were other things it solved, such as compensating for the fatigue that several months of not being incentivized had brought the voters. In addition, with the fact that the first to vote earns the most, it gave incentive to check the list, and check it often. Voters race now to find the good submissions first.
The fact that a domain was first registered to begin with means it was quality to someone, at some point. The fact that it was submitted on Bido means it was considered quality by the seller to even consider offering it for sale. If the item gets voted to auction, it was "quality" to 4 or 10 people. Remember that when voting, you can cast 1, 2, or 3 votes based on how likely you feel the item is to sell at it's BidoPrice or more - until 10 votes are placed, and then it goes to auction. When you click to vote, the system asks how many votes you want to place. If the item sells in auction, it was certainly quality to one or more people, and at some level of granularity - indicated by the sale price. These steps of the quality control process funnel inventory from submission to sale in an orderly fashion.
Perhaps we're just confusing quality with average sale price?
Dongsman, why would any auction house be held responsible for 'quality' and who can really say what will sell and for how much.
I've constantly seen great names sell for low prices - even on sedo and crap go for ridiculous prices, even at afternic. Beauty truly is in the eyes of the beholder.
And while I don't think the 'vote for profits' is THE differentiator here... it does provide a modicum of balance to the submissions, the absolute rubbish doesn't even make it to auction, irrespective of the price.
Forgive the polemics that are about to ensue here, but no, you're confusing the ability to vet quality in a domain name with the fictitious idea that there is wisdom in the masses. In some areas, the masses can be wise in a rough, broad, macro'ish kinda way, but definitely not when it comes to stuff like this. Some businesses require decision making authority be delegated to legitimate expertise. When you're on the operating table and a crisis occurs, they don't send a nurse out into the lobby to ask the audience. The rely on the judgment of the surgeon to effect the best possible outcome simply because he's the person most likely to make the correct decision.
If we were to poll a random sampling of 100 people and ask them to name the three greatest guitarists ever, you would generally get the same answers. Hendrix, Clapton... The most 'knowledgeable' amongst that group of 100 might say Stevie Ray Vaughn...
If we were to poll a random sampling of 100 guitar players and ask them to name the three greatest guitarists ever, the answers would almost wholly different than those given by the first group.
If we were to poll a random sampling of 100 great guitar players and ask them that same question, there would be some commonality with the answers given by the 'regular' guitar players, but their breadth of knowledge, competence and intimate understanding of what constitutes quality would certainly yield a more objectively correct answer to the question than anyone else.
As you ascend the ladder of competence, the perspectives become more refined and the opinions held by the more competent people are more legitimate.
In the particular case of BIDO, 'actual quality' is essential for that model to succeed, however, you've delegated that job to the masses, which was a terrible decision, the result of which is that the site has- for the most part- become a domain name trash can and irrelevant to the people who own the sorts of domain names that are required to keep something like that running strong.
---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------
The next time you throw out an old piece of broken furniture, try calling Sothebys and see if they'd be interested in listing it in their next upcoming catalog- see how far you get. When they laugh and slam down the phone, their reason for doing so has nothing to do with being 'cruel' or 'unfair'. It has to do with a selling dynamic they've figured out that the people at BIDO apparently haven't.
People who have a clue. Believe it or not, such people really do exist...
You can never say precisely how much anything will sell for in an auction format, but in order to attract the right buying demographics, you must first offer the right things for sale. Absent some sort of standard for quality, you're basically operating on the flea market concept which probably isn't a profitable model, as far as domain name listing services go...
I don't think this is really accurate when it comes to auctions. Rarely does rubbish get multiple bids.
Last time I looked at Bido the average name was getting no bids, so I'd saying something is wrong with the voting system if loads of names can get listed that nobody would actually bid on.
---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------
I think this probably sums up the situation, unless you have someone knowledgable, eg the people running Bido making listing decisions then it will probably continue as is.
They have a built in vetting system to start... they ask you to bring the item in. If you don't think they'll list it, you'll never spend the money to bring it to them. This does not apply to domains, since its all digital. It costs people nothing to throw the whole bucket up there on the wall and see what sticks.
Yes, I'm aware of this, being the closest to a correct appraisal on pepe.com in may 2009.
Come now snoop, I know you follow auctions and I'm sure you've seen this often enough for it not be a 'one time thing'.
Yes, there is something wrong, why i said its not definitive, but what are the alternatives?
Would Dongsman and snoop spend 24 hours a day 'vetting' domains at any auction platform?
Which brings us to the chicken and egg syndrome, how does Bido qualify what will and what won't sell without the input of the users of their platform?
I agree this is a tough one to pin down, but then the people who do will be laughing all the way to the bank. And these people might not be only interested in $xx,xxx or higher sales. You make a lot of money selling a Rolls, but if you sell salt you can sell to a lot more people and on a daily basis.
I think Bido is a nice platform. They haven't been around too long so it will take time for the eyeballs on their site to increase either through more and more continued sales or advertising. Bido is trying to be a liquid market which means you make sales but maybe not at top end user pricing. Honestly in my experience my best end user sales have all involved patience and targeting the right end user and not from listing at any sales venue. Domains you wanna sell or turn liquid give Bido a chance. Your best domains that you want top dollar for involve patience or positioning them in front of the right end user crowd. I have only sold 1 domain on Bido but I will say everything went smooth and customer support seems on track. Different domains for different venues and your best domains involve patience or targeting end users as generally they come 1 domain at a time and you can't rush a premium sale. I'm pretty sure Bido will continue to improve and someday may even attract a larger end user crowd. They are still new compared to other venues so give it some time. Once the eyeballs/sales increase over there then I think domainers will be willing to list better inventory. The seller of Pepe didn't have to accept the offer they choose to so for them they considered it a fair price so congrats on the sale. If the topic is don't sell Ferarris in the ghetto the same thing could be said about selling domains in forums or through Sedo where offers are anonymous and not really fair to target Bido as they came out from the start saying they were a liquid market.
I said rarely do worthless names get mutliple bids and I think that is the case. Usually the commentry on forums about this is from people who don't really understand why the name is worth something. If multiple people want a name to the point of bidding you can be pretty sure that name has value.
Have staff screen the name, like Moniker and Greatdomains do for auctions.
If domain auctions were my business (ie I owned the site) most definitely I would be vetting the listings.
They'll need to make a decision themselves. The voting was a nice experiment to try but I think it is fairly apparent that it isn't working.
As it happens, I just bought LondonFashion.com from the owner, Dong....
---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------
There are some limitations built into domain auction processes.
The key issue with domain selection by voter-vote (the Bido model), is that the domains selected for auction will always be a function of two things:
(i) The quality of the names submitted to vote on, in the first place.
(ii) The knowledge/judgement/financial capacity of the people that are voting.
Both will effect the quality of the domains that end up on the auction list.
In the end, the power of any auction house is limited......No auction house - whether TRAFFIC, Great Domains, Bido, or Sedo et al - can mandate that people submit their quality names for auction, if the owners of those names do not want to submit them.....So, all auction houses can only be essentially reactive - ie accept, or reject, what is put forward for auction.
For Bido, to attract really top domains on their model, it would need potential bidder/voters that are prepared to vote in domains that they know will need bids of a minimum of, say, $xx,xxx to secure them......The reality is that most potential bidders at Bido can't afford those kinds of prices - so, why would they vote in high-end domains to bid on?
So, it would seem that Bido has structured a model that is likely to drive primarily low-end auction listings, simply because its voter system is peopled by folks with lower budgets.
So, that supports Dong's point re a good name being auctioned at Bido.....It gets the price the system at Bido can deliver.
We constantly hear complaints about the quality of domains selected for, say, TRAFFIC....And, they DO have people nominated to choose domains for Live & Extended auctions (apparently, choosing, say 2000 domains, from 20,000 domain submissions).....ie, having people selecting is no guarantee of quality, either......They, too, are limited by the quality of what domain owners are prepared to offer up.
And, then, there's the unpredictability of 'value in the eyes of the user' that is unique to domains (ie the value of a given domain to a domainer (with all his metrics & stats) may be much lower, than the value of it to the owner of a well-funded start-up that wants THAT brandable domain).
So, what's the answer, really?
There may be a gap in the market for an auction house to step into the market with a model that says: 'We'll ONLY ever auction domains that our selection panel determines are minimum $xx,xxx, and up' (maybe Great Domains started with that model, originally).
But, this, by definition, will mean a limited number of domains auctioned per year....Whether a business model can sustain that is debatable.
And, the Bido model may well be profitable - even if each domain is, on average, a lower price domain - provided they churn enough of them.
Sedo makes money - with a mix of high & low end auction sales, plus its brokerage activity.....Snapnames, Pool & Namejet have their mixed quality domain sales.
I suspect there IS no real answer.....ie domain owners sell where they can - and, buyers buy where they can - And, both try to get the best deal they can.
I highlighted the relevant bit in your sentence :blink:
That's the problem with Bido, spending too much time to find that gem that may show up on rare occasions.
I have other venues to watch: snapnames, namejet, expired domain lists from certain registrars etc.
I need to allocate my time toward scouring lists where there is a likelihood of finding decent domains.
Bido is clearly at the bottom of my priorities.
Exactly. At Bido you have an audience of (cheap) domainers. Jarred makes a good point about liquidity. My problem is not with the fact that users are underselling their domains in exchange for quick cash (liquidity).
The problem is that the marketplace is littered with rubbish.
In my view, the vast majority of domains being liquidated there are domains that would be dropped otherwise. I thought we already a place for that... ebay ?
Bido is exactly what it is. But it's not a place to go to find gems lined up back to back. It is not a place to go to expect to get the "Best" price for better domain names. Bido doesn't claim to do these things.
What Bido does offer all domainers is a platform and a chance to crowd source your less favorable domain names to market and your more favorable names as well....if YOU choose.
If a seller puts 10 $8.00 reg fee names up for auction at $28 apiece and only sells 3...then they have made their money back. A quick and concise method to turning a domain name and eliminates worry of having to re-register the name again or let it drop in times of portfolio liquidation.
They allow for profits through their voting system. No other platform does that.
They have a guarantee system so you can get feedback from their partners on liquidity of a domain name and a chance to sell a domain name for what you may want to settle for. If not......it let's you make the decision to walk away from an offer with a liquid appraisal for much cheaper than most auction houses paid appraisals (ill-liquid guesses).
It also provides tools so the individual seller can market their own names and attract the interest a name requires to find prospective end users and/or re-sellers.
Bido isn't done yet. They have only broken the mold.
What other platform allows for customer and member feedback and ideas in order to better the functionality of their system? And show that they are listening?
Bido has the best customer service of any platform around IMO.
I just submitted a domain name for their guarantee program. If I don't like what the high bid is I can walk away with a bit of an idea of the liquidity within their system. I know the name might fetch more but if I need the money for whatever reason then I can accept. Where else can you go to get these features?
It is really simple. No fancy footwork needed.
They have not forgot about the need for more market attention among end users.
If other platforms started out like Bido they wouldn't be stuck in limbo not being able to incorporate these new features Bido has created. That is why I like their approach in this industry. It is what was needed.....and will continue to evolve.
I don't have a problem agreeing with a member in one thread and then disagreeing with them in another. I'm not here to be a follower. I call it like I see it. However there are members here I greatly respect even when I do disagree. That respect can even translate into convincing me to change my view.
The clear point of this thread seems simplistic. That Bido is not a top tier marketplace and should probably be avoided. I sort of feel the same way about Namepros. Stuff doesn't really sell here for top dollar and I'd prefer finding a way to sell to end-users. I use NP for discussion and to maybe ditch some low profile names. I also do grab some good deals from time to time as a bottom feeder.
I agree. I have undersold names too but I was happy with the price at the time so I don't regret it. If you think you'll regret sale price then just don't sell. I'll assume the $15k buyer recieved was still a nice hefty profit. He could have paid reg fee but I certainly doubt he paid more than $2k. That's how this biz works. A domain could get upsold 5 times before reaching an end-user. Each seller can even make profit along the way. That's imho what makes this market work.
Love the analogy. Gotta use that myself.
Maybe one thing that can come out of this thread is that Bido needs to do more to attract high end buyers.
Sure one of these two:
I think either of those could be $x,xxx end user price.
$170 for londonfashion.com I'd buy it too. Maybe it's time to start being a buyer there.
Dongsman...while I see your point does it really matter? If Bido wants to be a low-end seller so be it. I don't have a problem with that. Every market has it's audience.
My guess is that Bido should do more end-user marketing. Maybe Bido hasn't done what I suspect other auctions houses of doing. Creating false sales to boost their reputation. If they did my guess is you wouldn't have started this thread. For all we know Bido is the only honest marketplace. Bido could easily fake a few high end sales to get into DNJournal and spark some extra activity. But I think they haven't gone that route and I hope they don't. Let's hope Bido doesn't hire a Halvarez.
Funny how Halvarez is now synonymous for Shill Bidder.
Out of this twisted thread I think I am going to join Bido and become a user.
me too. :sold:
I never thought that much about it either, but I am now! Maybe i'll be there when (insert obscure 4 letter proper name).com comes up to auction.
Always 2 sides to every coin.
If you're a seller complaining stuff is too cheap then become a buyer. If you're a buyer and you complain stuff is too expensive then become a seller. Just seems like good business to me.
It's not even two sides. It seems to me that the argument on this thread has been almost exclusively from the seller perspective (which was Dongsman's original intent) and only in a few somewhat snarky comments from the buyer perspective.
In the case of Dongsman who says he's a "developer" vs "domainer" it's probably normal to view that one side.
I wonder though. If a venue was 100% able to get GREAT domainers to EVALUATE domains and appraise and set the appropriate selling point... WHERE EXACTLY WOULD YOU GO TO BUY as a domainer? If you can't find a "diamond in the rough" your business would fall apart.
I don't think BIDO claims to be an end user system - in fact Dongsman said very early on - that it is this GAP that domainers exploit to serve the needs of end users (perhaps I misquote so don't hold me to it).
I guess what I am saying is that if you hope for the perfect selling venue, it is only the venue that will really end up making money. The middle man "expert" is no longer required.... kind of like the car salesman today
The funny thing is that there are keyword domains out there that wouldnt sell for nothing but if you took a little time to set up a website, do some seo, and monetize it you will make a killing
Separate names with a comma.