alert PayPal Chargeback Scam (Arunas Zygis / [email protected])

[varmuk]

I have sold two domain on 25 oct 2016 to a buyer here @ namepro .

@John Pem

Payment sent:
Customer Number: 140330781
[email protected]

Now on 30 Oct 2016 I have found a dispute [unauthorized transition] for the same payment, in paypal. The paypal account holder (Arunas Zygis) is saying some else has used his account without his permission. Buyer is not available here from last 24-48 hours,

Domain stolen >> "Xwire,com", "Ujvj.com"
paypal claim attached from [email protected] / [email protected]

---

Update on Mar 29, 2017:

• https://www.namepros.com/threads/1009388/

 

[VladGets]

This f*** scams

 

[steitieh]

It's for sure not NamePros' problem here - They did add this rule (where sellers cannot ask buyers to pay the fees or even ask for a personal/family/gift payment) due to two reasons -

1- Buyers started complaining that they shouldn't be paying the fees (even when you send a personal payment, there is some fees involved on the buyers' end).
2- It's against PayPal's TOS.

The bottom line is: Using PayPal in any industry holds some risk - not only in domaining. PayPal is the one that should do something about it for sure.

Even if NamePros took off that rule regarding the personal payment or buyers paying fees, the problem will STILL exist, why?

1- Because even personal payments can be reversed (as when you pay using your credit card, you can always go back to your bank and claim it was not you doing the payment, thus, ending up with a charge back against PayPal which I don't believe PayPal would swallow and move on).

2- PayPal does NOT like personal payment (Personal Experience), Before the rule was set, I used to ask for personal payments all the time (to reduce my cost and fees) , I had my share in auctions then I got contacted by my PayPal's account manager clearly stating that they do NOT like to see personal payments coming in that magnitude and that they will start forcing a NORMAL feel against personal payments if they keep coming. \

Finally, The risk is there, the risk will always be there unless PayPal does something about it - Nothing NamePros can do to fix this.

 

[AlexPaymer]

Paypal is CRAP, better use BTC, no chargebacks no banker that can lock ur $$$.

 

[steitieh]

Paypal is CRAP, better use BTC, no chargebacks no banker that can lock ur $$$.

PayPal knows that we need them, they're monopolizing the market as we speak - BTC is GREAT but very few people use it. This is a disadvantage to us, but PayPal is not the stronger part. They know they can enforce any rule they like and they also know that we'll still use them.Unfortunately.

 

[alcy]

Paypal is CRAP, better use BTC, no chargebacks no banker that can lock ur $$$.

I like BTC as a tech tough I admit to never used it yet.. however, how do you get around making the buyer fully trust you to such extent as to pay via btc prior to getting domain.. with zero chance of filing dispute or getting btc back in case of problem?

when they pay with paypal, they can easily file claim on you for item not delivered... or file chargeback. do you find it easy to convince buyers to trust you enough to pay you in btc?

 

[jamaltq]

I have faced similar issue many times before, and all resolved by PayPal.
It will take time but you must go for it.
Just explain the case to paypal with sending them attachments (snapshot) of all conversations between you and the buyer as you can.
Note: always when you sell a domain by PayPal, ask the buyer when he pay to add a note in PayPal that the payment is for the domain name ........ , sold through for example (Namepros.com)
Good luck.

 

[alcy]

It's for sure not NamePros' problem here - They did add this rule (where sellers cannot ask buyers to pay the fees or even ask for a personal/family/gift payment) due to two reasons -

1- Buyers started complaining that they shouldn't be paying the fees (even when you send a personal payment, there is some fees involved on the buyers' end).
2- It's against PayPal's TOS.

The bottom line is: Using PayPal in any industry holds some risk - not only in domaining. PayPal is the one that should do something about it for sure.

Even if NamePros took off that rule regarding the personal payment or buyers paying fees, the problem will STILL exist, why?

1- Because even personal payments can be reversed (as when you pay using your credit card, you can always go back to your bank and claim it was not you doing the payment, thus, ending up with a charge back against PayPal which I don't believe PayPal would swallow and move on).

2- PayPal does NOT like personal payment (Personal Experience), Before the rule was set, I used to ask for personal payments all the time (to reduce my cost and fees) , I had my share in auctions then I got contacted by my PayPal's account manager clearly stating that they do NOT like to see personal payments coming in that magnitude and that they will start forcing a NORMAL feel against personal payments if they keep coming. \

Finally, The risk is there, the risk will always be there unless PayPal does something about it - Nothing NamePros can do to fix this.

those are excellent points.

paypal remains world's best, most convienient and simple to use payment system imo.. but not just my opinion.. ~200 million account owners share my view. they can't all be wrong I'm sure ... of course like with any company out there, there will be problems... the problem with problems is that those are the only ones that make frontpages and we hear about. we never hear of all the other deals that went smoothly with paypal.. cause well.. there is nothing to talk about there.

that being said, for domains, obviously paypal is not optimized.

I wish escrow.com would allow paypal payouts to canada (not sure about other countries) then I'd be more inclined to use them. I think ecop.com does.. I may try that. not sure if they eat the loss in case of after-payout chargeback.. like escrow.com/godaddy aucitons does.

as for selling domains with paypal, and minimizing risks.. well.. it may well boil down to going some extrea steps with buyer via email to ensure he pays via paypal balance funds only...
usa based my paypal cashcard may be handy here.. https://www.paypal-cash.com/
or simply funding via their bank account/echeck.
no chargebacks possible there.
and I am not referring to gift payments here. just regular one. with no shipping address.

imo if buyer really wants your domain and on top of it insists on using paypal (there are buyers like this who will also prefer paypal only, this isn't always just about what seller prefers), they will be willing to talk to you and go through extra steps to offer you protection you need (against chargeback) and accomodate you by paying with paypal balance and/or bank... even go as far as to provide you screenshos of their paypal balance etc.. in the end both buyer and seller are in same boat.. buyer wanting some protection for his payment.. and seller wanting protection too.

 

[alcy]

I have faced similar issue many times before, and all resolved by PayPal.
It will take time but you must go for it.
Just explain the case to paypal with sending them attachments (snapshot) of all conversations between you and the buyer as you can.
Note: always when you sell a domain by PayPal, ask the buyer when he pay to add a note in PayPal that the payment is for the domain name ........ , sold through for example (Namepros.com)
Good luck.

do you mean by all this that they will work with you to close the chargeback in your favor.. or do you mean by resolved, that they will let the buyer win the chargeback, but simply eat the loss on it and pay from their own pocket to you, as long as you provide them all the needed facts and documentations you refered to? thanks.

 

[jamaltq]

do you mean by all this that they will work with you to close the chargeback in your favor.. or do you mean by resolved, that they will let the buyer win the chargeback, but simply eat the loss on it and pay from their own pocket to you, as long as you provide them all the needed facts and documentations you refered to? thanks.

Yes all closed in my favor.

 

[alcy]

Yes all closed in my favor.

I see.
but doesn't the final decision to deny or accpet chargeback fall on credit card? and not paypal... credit card will listen to the case you present to paypal and therefore the case the paypal presents to the credit card company.. but I Was under impression it is always up to credit card to make final close or accept chargeback decision. and very rarely do they deny or go against card owner.

can you add some clarifitication to this?

 

[jamaltq]

I see.
but doesn't the final decision to deny or accpet chargeback fall on credit card? and not paypal... credit card will listen to the case you present to paypal and therefore the case the paypal presents to the credit card company.. but I Was under impression it is always up to credit card to make final close or accept chargeback decision. and very rarely do they deny or go against card owner.

can you add some clarifitication to this?

All the case will be on PayPal account, creditcard will not involve in this.

 

[alcy]

All the case will be on PayPal account, creditcard will not involve in this.

hmmm.. excuse me sir, but a credit card chargeback is all about credit card. and usually very little to no paypal involvement.
are you 100% sure your buyer was not filing an item not received or not as deascribed case?

thank you

 

[Eric Lyon]

Please keep in mind that sending personal payments for purchases is against PayPal's Terms (ToS), not ours. NamePros does not enforce other sites' rules/ToS.

You're all correct that we used to have a rule about it years ago, but we don't enforce the rules of other sites at all anymore. If buyers and sellers want to send/receive payments as a gift (to "friends and family"), that is something we neither forbid nor encourage.

Hope that helps,

 

[jamaltq]

hmmm.. excuse me sir, but a credit card chargeback is all about credit card. and usually very little to no paypal involvement.
are you 100% sure your buyer was not filing an item not received or not as deascribed case?

thank you

PayPal will block the payment in your account until the issue resolve, once it is, they release it.
Now if you spent the payment, and the issue opened after, by the buyer, and there is No enough fund in your PayPal account , they will ask you cover that payment manually from your credit card.
For example, if the sale is for $500, and when the buyer open the case, and there is only $200 in your PayPal account, you have to add $300 to your PayPal.

 

[alcy]

PayPal will block the payment in your account until the issue resolve, once it is, they release it.
Now if you spent the payment, and the issue opened after, by the buyer, and there is No enough fund in your PayPal account , they will ask you cover that payment manually from your credit card.
For example, if the sale is for $500, and when the buyer open the case, and there is only $200 in your PayPal account, you have to add $300 to your PayPal.

thank you for saying this, however, I fear you may be mixing that paypal has succesfully decided an item not received or not as described case for you, rather than a buyr credit card chargeback, because none of the things you write about to me have even the vaguest connection to the things about which I write to you. thank you though. cheers.

 

[Dondomainer]

In my case, exactly like this, I just received a notice from paypal ( this after twice the agents with whom I speak say that the dispute was won in my favor.

Dear FOROCOM,

We've been working with your buyer's financial institution to resolve the dispute for the transaction detailed below.

Buyer's name: Milton Silber
Buyer's email: [email protected]
Buyer's transaction ID: 7ED600758L142335K
Your transaction ID: 7DE44909U3438505J
Transaction date: September 4, 2016
Transaction amount: $850.00 USD
Disputed amount: $850.00 USD
After our efforts to resolve this dispute on your behalf, your buyer’s financial institution decided in the buyer’s favor.

While we cannot dispute this transaction any further, we encourage you to contact your buyer directly to reach a resolution.

Thank you for your patience during this process. We appreciate your business.

You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center. After you log in to your PayPal account, click Tools, and then click Business Resource Center under "Grow your business."

so today, i get a negative balance of $850 + $16 paypal fees.

But then I have a problem?... nop...( Not at all ).. now this is not about money is about give thieves what they deserve, just wait, that's my promise Milton Silber, relax and wait. o dear.

 

[alcy]

In my case, exactly like this, I just received a notice from paypal ( this after twice the agents with whom I speak say that the dispute was won in my favor.

Dear FOROCOM,

We've been working with your buyer's financial institution to resolve the dispute for the transaction detailed below.

Buyer's name: Milton Silber
Buyer's email: [email protected]
Buyer's transaction ID: 7ED600758L142335K
Your transaction ID: 7DE44909U3438505J
Transaction date: September 4, 2016
Transaction amount: $850.00 USD
Disputed amount: $850.00 USD
After our efforts to resolve this dispute on your behalf, your buyer’s financial institution decided in the buyer’s favor.

While we cannot dispute this transaction any further, we encourage you to contact your buyer directly to reach a resolution.

Thank you for your patience during this process. We appreciate your business.

You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center. After you log in to your PayPal account, click Tools, and then click Business Resource Center under "Grow your business."

so today, i get a negative balance of $850 + $16 paypal fees.

But then I have a problem?... nop...( Not at all ).. now this is not about money is about give thieves what they deserve, just wait, that's my promise Milton Silber, relax and wait. o dear.

sorry to hear..

yeah... what people gotta remember is paypal does not get to have the final word in chargeback. its always the credit card. so whoever on here said its paypal that decides, you were probably confusing regular paypal item not received/described claim. those aren't the problem and are easy to win if you show you gave domain to buyer.
whats hard to win are chargebacks. in most cases buyer will win cause cc company usually take site of their client. still paypal will deny the chargeback on their end (still not a guarantee of chargeback denial on CC side) and pass the denial on to cc company if it was paid using personal gift payment. im just repeating what they said on phoen to me. and that's 2 different reps. so do your own research or your own conclusions.

in meantime, if using paypal, do your best to get them to pay using paypal balance. ask for screenshots of their pp balance if you have to. and call paypal after you get paid to ask if transation looks okay before you accept the transfer domain. I don't think they can go into another person'a account while your on phone.. but I am sure they see way more than you about the payment after u get it... or about the person who paid you.

 

[JudgeMind]

Immediately, from now on, when someone wants to buy one your domains, like a llll.com or any other "expensive" domain tell the buyer you will send him a paypal invoice/request for money...

Put this exact info on the invoice -->

This transaction represents the service for the digital transfer of ownership of website domain ______________
No goods are present or sent and nothing was "shipped." No refunds are offered.

I agree and this is how I have done things for some time now. Always send an invoice that they must review and pay for.

 

[eyedomainous]

^ An invoice, with a statement, may work for paypal, but not with a credit card company chargeback.
Either way, the seller's fate is in the hands of the 'middleman'.

The best way for domain sellers to stay in control of credit card bought domains is to retain DNS control until after the chargeback window has closed.

 

[alcy]

^ An invoice, with a statement, may work for paypal, but not with a credit card company chargeback.
Either way, the seller's fate is in the hands of the 'middleman'.

The best way for domain sellers to stay in control of credit card bought domains is to retain DNS control until after the chargeback window has closed.

I agree that the invoice statement disclaimer is not worth much for CC company. possibly nothing at all. its still of course better to have it there, than not.

however, I am not too sure how you do it to retain dns control until cb window closes. cause that window is usually ~6 months.

 

[Electric-Shadow]

Anything over $500 insist on Escrow if you don't trust the buyer, it would even be worth creating a buy now listing via Flippa and using their Escrow service, then you can still get funds however you wish (via Paypal for example). The small commission fee would be worth your piece of mind imo. I would also recommend Sedo, however they can be very slow with payments.

 

[ebiz]

If it comes out that you cannot get the domains back, make the domains useless by dirty tactics , be as ruthless as the scammer. Have the domains posted on every nasty site you can find , send DOS constantly , you have fight fire with fire!

Always use escrow ,,always , the peace of mind is worth the fee.

 

[eyedomainous]

Holding the DNS is like holding the deed to a house, or car title, until its paid-off. And that can take years.
The longer the window the more incentive the buyer has to pay another way.

Digital transactions
"One method of combating friendly fraud is... If a chargeback is issued, the merchant can tell the product to suspend service. This tactic will also work for digital subscription services or any other online product."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback_fraud (note, its the Only method listed).

I agree that the invoice statement disclaimer is not worth much for CC company. possibly nothing at all. its still of course better to have it there, than not.

however, I am not too sure how you do it to retain dns control until cb window closes. cause that window is usually ~6 months.

 

[America First]

Here is what I have done for years and never an issue with 2 different scams tried. ( and I got the money back) Send it via merchandise/product sale, NOT FRIENDS & FAMILY add a note that states what domain it is for and that you both agree. After that make sure you choose the money out of your balance or bank. PERIOD! Not Credit Card.

If you use your balance or bank you can have PP work with you 100% as you will have buyers protection. They issue your account a refund and pull the balance out of the senders *linked bank account.
*THE KEY TO THIS IS NEVER SEND TO A NON VERIFIED ACCOUNT IF IT IS OVER $500.

You should also Have a Business Verified Paypal account this will go a long way with PayPal and your credibility.

 

[freddy]

everything that is quick and easy is on the other side unsecure or has at least some risks.
We domainers are usually lazy when it comes to contracts, right?
I am documenting each sale, doesnt matter what size of the deal. And very often I ask for a signed contract on which the payment method is mentioned.
In the past I as well asked people to send me a scan of their ID if I dont knew them and if the Paypal Address is not matching the company name or Users name. There are very good fraud-rating mechanism.
check the IP of the mailserver (if not gmail), is it in the range of a couple hunderd miles of the users address or city?
ask him him to use a shoppingcart you setup (see my signature) to log all relevant data, there are plugins available for automatic fraud-screening.