discuss Looking at Namebio recently completed sales / prices for real word domain names

[xynames]

Granted, a lot of these are not the greatest names, and not all sold retail, but here are some examples I culled of domains that in my opinion, sold about 50% too low, at least, if not more, compared with comparable domains I have sold recently at XYNames.com :

tvlink.com $1737 Dropcatch 10/15/2017
determinedtoquit.com $1231. GoDaddy 10/15/2017
electroland.com $1318. NameJet 10/12/2017
greatproperties.com $2099. NameJet 10/9/2017
callsafe.com $1247. GoDaddy 10/7/2017
depositadvance.com $1700. BuyDomains 10/6/2017
budgetservers.com $1500. BuyDomains 10/5/2017
streamfree.com $1280. GoDaddy 10/4/2017
cybermate.com $1800. BuyDomains 10/3/2017
sureheart.com $1388. BuyDomains 10/2/2017
sunstation.com $1609. NameJet 10/1/2017

Compare for example with:
regionalcontractors.com $3000. BuyDomains 10/5/2017
just as good, or bad, as some of the names above, sold for a more reasonable $3000. level.

I think too many domainers are letting go of their domains for the $1000. initial offer price, without trying to get what the domains are worth. As the inventory of people willing, or desperate, to sell cheap is weeded out, prices should rise. I am in no hurry to sell and manage to get my mid four figures for at least 2 - 3 domains a months lately.

I encourage you guys not to jump on the first $500. or $1000. offer you get, and negotiate! Or...hold...until the right buyer comes along. The right buyer for any of the above domains would have easily paid more than the price paid.

 

[italsat]

ask high , not sold for cheap , if i look back , i have 100+ domains in my portfolio that i have receive decent offer and not have accept it .
I have lose 100k +/-
This domains not have received others offers in all this time.

 

[xynames]

frank-germany: if I'm selling or planning to sell a widget, what matters as far as pricing it, is what the other comparable widgets in the marketplace are selling for. Whether one manufacturer is selling its widget at a huge profit, and another is selling it at a loss, does not matter for purposes of market analysis of competition.

I can understand what you are saying, as far as that if I'm selling something at say Afternic, with 20% commission, versus domainagents, where what the buyer offers is what I get, that in the back of my mind I will be thinking - "this is what I want to make the sale happen" (and this precisely happened recently, where I wanted $3100. from an offeror at domainagents but was only able to get him up to $2500. from his initial several hundred dollar offer, and realized that this was equal to $3125. at Afternic, where I had the domain listed with about that same buy it now price:

$2500. with no commission equals $3125. at 20% commission,

and so I accepted his $2500. offer.)

BUT STILL, what matters - as far as comparables - market analysis - is not the "net" that the seller receives but what the buyer is willing to pay - what the comparables have closed at, what the comparables are being offered at.

The buyer doesn't care what you get out of a sale, he simply is willing to pay whatever he is willing to pay. These prices paid by the buyer are what matter. Namebio's reporting of the price paid by the buyer is complete, correct, and what matters.

---

italsat, our experience has been that after we turn down lower offers eventually someone comes along and buys enough of these same domains for which there were low offers, at much better prices.

Also, if you're going to accept low offers, then you will be doing it across the board. Your thinking is flawed. So you "lost" 100K from not selling domains where you received low offers and did not sell, and have not sold those domains yet. Okay. Well what if you had sold ALL of your domains at comparably very low prices? What if you had put buy it nows for all of your domains at low prices? How much less would you have received then, from your closed sales?

Let's say: You have 20 domains that should sell for $3000. each.

Scenario A.
10 domains, received 1000 offers for them, did not accept, never sold. So you "lost" $10,000. according to your thinking.

10 domains, that you did sell for $3000. Received $30,000.
Net receipts: $30,000.

Scenario B
You accept every $1000. offer immediately, do not try to get more, and sell all 20 domains at $1000. each
Net receipts: $20,000.

You see what I mean? You can't have it both ways. Either you hold out for the higher price on everything, or you just dump everything cheap.

If you're going to accept low offers, then you will lose out on higher sales. You must have a consistent policy. Either just dump everything cheap, or wait for the higher offers. Usually, the higher revenue you receive from the sales at market value (Scenario A) will more than make up for the "lost" revenue of unsold domains (Scenario B).

You can't know which domains will receive higher offers later, which will not, doesn't work that way.

 

[frank-germany]

frank-germany:

BUT STILL, what matters - as far as comparables - market analysis - is not the "net" that the seller receives but what the buyer is willing to pay - what the comparables have closed at, what the comparables are being offered at.

now when it comes to a sale
from a german company to another german company
( both VAT registered )

then the buyer doesn't pay the 19%
as he can deduct it
and gets a refund from the tax authorities

so he pays the sale price minus 19% in that case
and he knows it when buying

reported price is actually neither what seller recieves
nor what buyer was willing to pay


but thats to complex for the reporting parties

 

[xynames]

frank-germany I'm familiar with VAT having traveled to Europe many times but did not know how it applies to domain sales. Thanks for illustrating that.

 

[italsat]

tvlink.com $1737 Dropcatch 10/15/2017
determinedtoquit.com $1231. GoDaddy 10/15/2017
electroland.com $1318. NameJet 10/12/2017
greatproperties.com $2099. NameJet 10/9/2017
callsafe.com $1247. GoDaddy 10/7/2017
streamfree.com $1280. GoDaddy 10/4/2017
sunstation.com $1609. NameJet 10/1/2017

this sales , probably , are auction sale.
For each domain , many bidder .
The final price of each domain is where other bidders have decide to stop your bid.
You can have buy electroland.com at 1318 and find after a month a inquire where you ask 18k and close the sale at 12k. or you can own this domain for other 10 years and receive all lowball.

 

[Michael]

Of the venues we track I consider these venues to be wholesale: GoDaddy, NameJet, DropCatch, Flippa, Park.io, 4.CN, and SnapNames. There are occasionally end user sales but they are so rare that it is safe to attribute all of their sales to the wholesale bucket.

Sedo is a mix so it is much more difficult to say how many are end user and how many are wholesale. But I think it is fair to say that their auctions are generally wholesale, and the sales they report in their feed are generally retail. That would mean retail sales at Sedo are about 31% of quantity and 67% of dollar volume.

Using all of that, my best estimate would be that 74.6% of the sales we report are wholesale and they account for about 28.9% of the dollar volume. So obviously retail would be about 25.4% of sales in terms of quantity and 71.1% in terms of dollar volume. So the guess of 80% wholesale wasn't too far off.

I don't think the OPs assumption is correct that wholesale prices are going so high because a flood of retail buyers are now suddenly on these traditionally wholesale venues like NameJet, DropCatch, etc. If that were true you would expect the biggest jump to be at venues like GoDaddy and Flippa that are more accessible/known to the average end user, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I think the pool of wholesale investors is just growing too quickly while the inventory of quality names expiring or being put up for auction is decreasing, which leads to greater competition. Normally this wouldn't be a big problem if the value retail buyers were willing to pay for premium names was growing at a similar pace, but I haven't heard anyone saying that end users are suddenly willing to pay much more. That's a big problem because margins are tightening from both ends, which squeezes out the little guy and mostly only leaves room for the institutional portfolio holders.

Personally I see little value in tracking retail sales. As Biggie says, every retail sale is unique in that you don't know who the buyer was, what their plans are, how badly they have to have the name, how strong of a financial position the seller was in, and a myriad of other factors that are likely more important than the domain itself. So I don't think retail sales have very much predictive value, if any. Although they can help in convincing a buyer that domains can sell for big bucks.

I do believe that tracking wholesale prices is important, because they are much, much more predictable. But they should be an indicator of what you buy at, not what you sell at. Seeing high retail sales can give some investors the courage to ask for more, which is important. However, it might make some investors delusional when they see a huge portfolio holder who is playing the numbers game sell a random, mediocre name for five-figures and suddenly the small investor starts asking five-figures for all their mediocre names which will probably result in no sales. Remember, they have *way* more lottery tickets than you, they're bound to hit more often.

TLDR; Use wholesale comps to make smart buys, use retail comps for inspiration/courage and little else. An overwhelming majority of sales in our database are wholesale, but lately wholesale has been creeping up to retail levels where purchase prices are providing a terrible ROI for the most part.

 

[frank-germany]

...So the guess of 80% wholesale wasn't too far off....As Biggie says, every retail sale is unique in that you don't know who the buyer was, what their plans are, how badly they have to have the name, how strong of a financial position the seller was in, and a myriad of other factors that are likely more important than the domain itself. So I don't think retail sales have very much predictive value, if any. Although they can help in convincing a buyer that domains can sell for big bucks.

I do believe that tracking wholesale prices is important, because they are much, much more predictable. But they should be an indicator of what you buy at, not what you sell at.

great info
thank you

I was not aware of the fact that most sales are wholesale

 

[xynames]

That's good to know that the majority of the namebio reported sales are wholesale.

I get low offers all the time, I mean like every single day. Michael and I were just discussing about how yesterday alone, I received five $1000. offers and two $500. offers on domains, that I responded at counteroffers ranging between $2700. and $75,000. I'd be selling at a $K a pop all day long if I wanted to, but that's just too low, in my opinion, for my quality of domain names. On average, I sell only a few domains a month, but at the prices that I believe are fair.

 

[Bros]

It is good to keep in mind that in many cases the "too high" prices can be at least partially explained by the existing links to the domain and the SEO benefits it should have.

 

[wwwweb]

I think this says alot:

The domain Lumeo.com sold for $14,072 at DropCatch for an increase of 463%.
It last sold for $2,500 on July 30th, 2012 at Afternic.

Given it is a registered trademark by Novartis, who always files UDRP, I am not sure who won it, but if it's not them, the buyer will most likely have to prove their purchase.

After spending $14K, seems like alot of work, otherwise they might be thinking they can roll the dice, and get a big end user sale, but this is where experience comes in, and knowing who the buyer is, and their history of filing UDRP's without a second thought.

 

[Lox]

Lumeo com reg in 2001, Syngenta Participations AG, TM filled in 2001, abandoned in 2005. New TM in 2012 Lumeo inc. I guess upgrade for lumeoinc.com

 

[xynames]

Just because your domain is a registered TM or someone’s proper name doesn’t necessarily mean it is infringing. Without getting into a likelihood of confusion and good/bad faith trademark discourse, it depends on the use of it.

 

[wwwweb]

Just because your domain is a registered TM or someone’s proper name doesn’t necessarily mean it is infringing. Without getting into a likelihood of confusion and good/bad faith trademark discourse, it depends on the use of it.

Like I said you are just talking out loud, not talking from experience if you know the company behind the trademark, and how many UDRP's they file, and their legal rep in the USA you might have a different opinion.

If an investor bought this thinking there is a multi billion dollar company behind it, that is great, but they do not realize who represents this company in domain transactions, and their process of acquiring, when they feel their mark is violated.

I understand buying a few domains, makes you a domainer, but it doesn't make you informed about everything domaining.

 

[xynames]

Being a lawyer and expert on intellectual property law doesn’t mean I know anything either...not to mention the hundreds of patents, trademarks and copyrights I have prosecuted successfully.

Nor does the fact that I or financed by me domaining companies have owned thousands of domains and moved millions of dollars in domains, my own and brokered, over fifteen years, coming up on sixteen.

Nobody's the last word on anything, I am not saying that I am either, but I've been contacted in the past about trademark infringement on my domains, and not one of the "accusations" went anywhere.

 

[wwwweb]

Being a lawyer and expert on intellectual property law doesn’t mean I know anything either...not to mention the hundreds of patents, trademarks and copyrights I have prosecuted successfully.

Just because you are a lawyer, does not mean you can stop another company, or lawyer from starting action based on the intent they feel their mark is being, or is about to be violated.

You should be very aware how Novartis defends their marks, and how many cases are filed out of their Washington law offices.

 

[xynames]

The word "prosecution" means application for a patent that is issued. I used it also to refer to trademarks and copyrights issued, which a copyright takes no skill to "obtain" but a trademark does. I would hope that I haven't been in court litigating all my/my clients' patents, trademarks and copyrights that I obtained, "hundreds" of times!

 

[Silentptnr]

The challenge with pricing domain names is that so much depends on the name. Really the only thing a domainer has are previous similar sales and a "feeling" about the value. Then you add the fact that "someone" is interested. This all leaves a lot of room for subjectivity on the price.

Some say that "the market (bidders/buyers) determine the market value" on a given day. Perhaps.

Truthfully, I believe that it comes down to sales skills and a number of other factors. One person could sell a name for $10k and another would have trouble selling the same name for 1k. Some people don't know what it's like to close larger transactions. I've actually read some posts about "Are you prepared for a big dollar inquiry".

I don't think anyone wants to leave money on the table. Selling domain names isn't easy. It does help to have motivation from all angles.

I have no reason to not believe the ops success and his desire to motivate.

I do think it might be more constructive to be specific about how you would approach selling these same domains you mentioned for more money just as fast, as compared to having put them on GD or NJ, or having thousands and thousands of domains like BD.

I also think there is data available that indicates average sales prices of domain names. The vast majority of sales, if I remember correctly, are somewhere around 3k.

Lastly, every domainer runs their business differently. Just like business owners in other industries. Don't underestimate the knowledge and ability of those here in this forum. Remember, we don't go into stores and tell them to charge more. Just saying. It's much more complicated than just saying, Come On Guys, Don't Sell Cheap!

 

[xynames]

You’re absolutely right Salesmanship matters of course but if you set the price too high and refuse to sell lower, your salesmanship won’t result in a closing, and if you set the price too low it’ll sell but even brilliant salesmanship can’t get you more than your asking price.

So even more important is learning how to value the domain which also as you allude to consists of comparables and gut feeling - including feeling out your buyer.

Anyway, as I wrote from the beginning of this thread: my motto is, don't sell cheap! You don't have to!