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discuss Libra domains. Fingers crossed!

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Purchased 3 two word libra .COM domains today. What are your thoughts and suggestions? Well, fingers crossed !!
 
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Maybe we could get @jberryhill to give us the exact rules if an existing trademark in a class covers the entire class or just the specific sub-descriptors (sub-classes?)?

There are some general factors, but there are not "exact rules". The belief that there are "exact rules" which cover all possible factual scenarios is one thing that tends to lead domainers astray.

But let's be clear what we are talking about here. A Swiss corporation, the Libra Association, was established some time ago, and recently filed this US trademark registration application:

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=88485782&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch

The recited goods and services are extensive, and I'm not going to copy and paste them here. The nonsense about some other registration limited to tax services has utterly nothing to do with what is recited in this application.

All that said .. establishing TM rights on a global scale for what they are hoping to be a planet-wide digital currency is a monstrous undertaking.

Not really. It's done all of the time under the various treaties which allow a filing in one place to be treated as if it were filed on an earlier date established elsewhere.

That is why, if you look at the data in the US application linked above, you will find that the application claims the priority right of this earlier-filed application under "Foreign Information":

Priority Claimed:
Yes
Foreign Application Number:
20190018
Foreign Application Filing Date:
Jan. 16, 2019
Foreign Application/Registration Country:
TURKMENISTAN

Now, there are a number of reasons to do that. One of those reasons is that it is very hard to get current filing information from Turkmenistan. Another popular place to quietly file applications is Trinidad & Tobago. An application can be filed in places like that, nobody will know about them, and then months later used as a priority basis for a US filing, once one has put their other ducks in a row.

So, my first observation in all of this "Libra" nonsense is that 99% of what people have been discussing in terms of US trademark documents is pure horseshit.

But there is a much more important observation to be made here, because I know there are going to be people who, with scant knowledge of how disputes are actually decided, raise a number of illusory issues about the application status and other things which they believe to be "exact rules" that don't really exist.

Let's have a look at a common UDRP principle used to make decisions:

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https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/overview3.0/#item38

3.8 Can bad faith be found where a domain name was registered before the complainant acquired trademark rights?


3.8.1 Domain names registered before a complainant accrues trademark rights


Subject to scenarios described in 3.8.2 below, where a respondent registers a domain name before the complainant’s trademark rights accrue, panels will not normally find bad faith on the part of the respondent. (This would not however impact a panel’s assessment of a complainant’s standing under the first UDRP element.)

...


3.8.2 Domain names registered in anticipation of trademark rights


As an exception to the general proposition described above in 3.8.1, in certain limited circumstances where the facts of the case establish that the respondent’s intent in registering the domain name was to unfairly capitalize on the complainant’s nascent (typically as yet unregistered) trademark rights, panels have been prepared to find that the respondent has acted in bad faith.


Such scenarios include registration of a domain name: (i) shortly before or after announcement of a corporate merger, (ii) further to the respondent’s insider knowledge (e.g., a former employee), (iii) further to significant media attention (e.g., in connection with a product launch or prominent event), or (iv) following the complainant’s filing of a trademark application.
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If you go to the link, you'll find that the WIPO Overview also includes links to relevant decisions that will give you some sort of idea of the cases in which this principle has been applied.

So, and this is really the point:

QUIT OBSESSING OVER TRADEMARK DOCUMENTS AND TAKE A LOOK AT THE BROADER OBVIOUS REALITY HERE.

The reality of the situation is this. In June (or whenever) of 2019, Facebook announced they were going to explore the launch of a cryptocurrency product in some sort of affiliation with a Swiss company that was set up for this purpose. Before making that announcement, they bought some tangentially related IP assets, and filed a foreign priority registration application in Turkmenistan, to attempt to cover the waterfront and secure a position in the future to be the exclusive licensor of "LIBRA" for any purpose connected with the product they intend to launch.

They didn't prepare that legal foundation for squirts and laughs.

Now, the way this is going to shake out, is as follows:

1. Some dumb schmuck, in June (or July) of 2019, registers the following domain names:

LibraCoinage.tld
LibraCoinExchange.tld
LibraCrypto.tld

2. Fast forward to 2021. The LIBRA product has been launched and become popular. The Libra Association files a UDRP against the dumb schmuck who registered those domain names back in 2019.

3. The dumb schmuck files his "defense" claiming, "Oh, 'libra' has been a common word and a horoscope sign for a long time. I registered these domain names as social media sites for people born under the sign of Libra to share information about their coin collections" or some stupid shit like that.

The dumb schmuck also says, "They didn't have a registered trademark when I registered the domain names and the product didn't even exist at that time" and, my personal favorite, "I wasn't using the domain names for any infringing purpose, I just offered them for sale."

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Okay, so, given those facts, there is no question what the outcome is going to be:

Nobody is stupid enough to believe that the dumb schmuck registered those domain names right in the midst of all of the media attention simply because it was a coincidence of timing.

Nobody is stupid enough to believe that the dumb schmuck didn't register that list of those names for any reason other than they are directly relevant to the product that Facebook announced its intention to launch.

Nobody is going to give a shit what the technical status of some trademark application was, or what is the specific recitation of goods and services in the application (by 2021 a registration).

And nobody is going to believe the dumb schmuck or care about the dumb schmuck's lame arguments, because the obvious reality of the situation is that the dumb schmuck heard that Facebook was going to be launching a product named "Libra" and the dumb schmuck thought he could secure a position wholly based on goodwill attributed to the brand name of that financial product.

Now, do remarkable coincidences happen sometimes? Yes they do.

Is there room in the world for legitimate nominative use of trademarks? Yes there is.

But unusual circumstances require strong and persuasive evidence. Registering a roster of names clearly timed with major media attention to a forthcoming product brand, with lame-brained justifications for having done so, does not do that.

 
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You come with a great wealth of knowledge, but you really need to work on your delivery.

If you think I'm unpleasant, wait until people start hearing from Facebook's lawyers. They aren't going to show up at Namepros and offer their thoughts for free.
 
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David Marcus who is a lead engineer behind Libra has tweeted about two websites built by the community:

LibraBrowser.io
Libranaut.io

twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/1146090206904250374?s=20
 
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Stay away from company products, its frowned upon this industry and its what always gives us domainers the squatters tag.

People can justify it all they want, they know its not right, its the same as buying a Ford, Dell, or iPad name, and because I sell it to a fellow domainer without being caught, it makes its ok for people. Just because you dont get caught, doesnt make it legal. 🙄🙄


Had it been illegal, there wouldn't have been thousands of registrations made already.

That's rubbish, there are thousands of TM names registered in all the different niches and threads on here, go and have a look. Check out Sedo and Godaddy as well for TM names, lots of them.
 
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Stay away from company products, its frowned upon this industry and its what always gives us domainers the squatters tag.
Cryptocurrency is not a product. How do you explain the term 'Bitcoin'? Is Bitcoin a product or cryptocurrency?

Is Libra different than Bitcoin?

Are Bitcoin domains labeled with a "squatters tag?"

The whole idea of decentralization and cryptocurrency is control. Not one entity controls decentralized cryptocurrency and that is the appeal.

Facebook does not control Libra, they only kickstarted it. Libra is controlled by the Libra Association.

If the Libra Association controls and TM,s the term (as they are attempting), it would technically not be cryptocurrency and it wouldn't be decentralized. In that case it could be considered a product, but not cryptocurrency. Although, we aren't at that bridge yet. Stay tuned these are interesting times.
 
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how can they prove a tm issue otherwise?

Because it was registered within days of Facebook’s announcement, isn’t used for any purpose having to do with astrology, and is simply offered for sale.

So, obviously, someone thought, on June 20th of this year, that a domain with Libra in it might have value. Golly, what happened in June 2019 that could give someone that idea?

Oh, and, get this. The registrant then posted the domain name on an Internet forum in a thread discussing Libra domains!

And not just that. Let’s take a look at what this person DIDN’T do. Does this person have LeoEmpowers? ScorpioEmpowers? CapricornEmpowers?

No. Just LibraEmpowers, and just registered after a ton of media frenzy over a proposed Facebook launch.

The reason for registering that domain name is completely transparent.

Again, you know how little children think they can “hide” by covering their face with their hands? That’s what a lot of domainers look like when they engage in silly rationalizations.
 
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Perfectly legal, lots being developed too.....libranews.com etc...

Better thread here on namepros namepros.com/threads/showcase-libra-domains.1141658/page-3
 
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Cryptocurrency is not a product. How do you explain the term 'Bitcoin'? Is Bitcoin a product or cryptocurrency?

Is Libra different than Bitcoin?

Are Bitcoin domains labeled with a "squatters tag?"

The whole idea of decentralization and cryptocurrency is control. Not one entity controls decentralized cryptocurrency and that is the appeal.

Facebook does not control Libra, they only kickstarted it. Libra is controlled by the Libra Association.

If the Libra Association controls and TM,s the term (as they are attempting), it would technically not be cryptocurrency and it wouldn't be decentralized. In that case it could be considered a product, but not cryptocurrency. Although, we aren't at that bridge yet. Stay tuned these are interesting times.
Libra will drive the development of other related products, such as news, shopping rebates, and many more. That's why you registered libra.
LibraPa.com accpeting offer ;)
 
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The people behind the of development Libra have publicly encouraged and applauded the development of Libra related sites. Literally sites with the word/keyword "Libra" in it...that promotes the actual coin. What Fb and the association are against are sites that pretend to be the official thing and try to scam people. But that happens in every single industry.

So stop the misdirected talk about TM...

If the people behind the TM are ok with it and even publicly acknowledged/promoted live sites to encourage it... then who are you to talk about don't reg, and TM?

Finally, if they are ok with the development of libra related sites by the community then that simply means....they will be some openness to innovation. Whether it's a simple news site or something more intricate.
 
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The people behind the of development Libra have publicly encouraged and applauded the development of Libra related sites. Literally sites with the word/keyword "Libra" in it...that promotes the actual coin.

The co-creator of Libra (and Calibra project leader) himself is literally tweeting out Libra-related domains + a good few $$$$ acquisitions later and we are still having this conversation based on misunderstanding a trademark...

See https://www.facebook.com/notes/david-marcus/libra-2-weeks-in/10158616513819148/
 
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really? so r u speaking from experience as a tm expert or simply speculating?

Is that a joke of some kind? Do you think I can somehow not speak from experience as an expert?

No, nobody is going to think that someone who registered LibraEmpowers, Libraology, and LibraMobilePayments in June 2019 did so because of anything having to do with astrology.
 
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LIBeRAte yourself from this junk
 
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If the domain is going to be used just for news related to the coin then it's not really infringing on the trademark class of the coin. (I'm certainly not 100% on that)

But the moment someone uses a "Libra" domain to market a product in the same class (pretty much ANYTHING digital), then there most definitely *IS* a trademark infraction.

Obviously the Libra Foundation (/Facebook/whoever runs Libra) can choose not to enforce it's very legal trademark .. but it's completely up to them .. and very unlikely they will ever allow anyone they do not give specific permission to to create a "LibraWallet" or "LibraApp" etc.

If you think Facebook and other major companies behind Libra are not going to actively enforce their trademark sooner than later then I've got prime swampland to sell you in Florida! lol


That being said .. they very likely won't come after inactive domains, and instead focus their attention on those actually using the names actively. Which means that while you might not get sued .. any end-user who wants to use the name who buys the domain from you will very likely get sued the second they put their product out there in a way that makes them money (even if it's a free product running ads). Most developers know this and as such will never buy "Libra" domains.

So yes .. they are likely relatively safe to hold as inactive domains in a portfolio (although not necessarily officially 100% safe) ... but if you have almost no chance of selling the domain .. then what's the point of owning it in the first place? That's the real problem with trademark type domains ...

The Creators of Libra have publicly acknowledged and and encourage the use of Libra related websites that focus on promoting the coin and on it's development. What they are against are people who pretend to be direct creators trying to sell people fake coins etc. You're going to be shocked how many Libra related websites and innovations spring up and how many domain name sales will happen.
 
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The Creators of Libra have publicly acknowledged and and encourage the use of Libra related websites that focus on promoting the coin and on it's development. What they are against are people who pretend to be direct creators trying to sell people fake coins etc. You're going to be shocked how many Libra related websites and innovations spring up and how many domain name sales will happen.

Well said!

I think the nay-sayers are the one's who didn't register a good libra domain in time tbh
 
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Purchased 3 two word libra .COM domains today. What are your thoughts and suggestions? Well, fingers crossed !!

Good luck to you.
 
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i suggest you take the time to visit the Libra website before making sweeping statements. If you go there you you will see organizations not affiliated with the Libra association using Libra in there interaction with the Libra team.

This is one. They are creating a Libra education platform. They are NOT part of the Libra team

https://community.libra.org/u/edulibra/summary

Here is there website
Notice the domain name?

edulibra.org - education platform on libra blockchain
 
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When examining the TM that Facebook purchased there is an important detail to understand.
The TM is for a TAX company.
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/2019...wn-tax-company-for-its-secret-crypto-project/
Again, I agree there are many legal issues to be settled, and because of this it is premature to label 'libra' investors as TM violators. In fact, it is absolutely wrong to do so if one has TM knowledge.

No .. the company was NOT a tax company .. it was a SOFTWARE company that happened to make Tax Software! There is a HUGE difference.. if it was a tax (accounting) firm, then the trademarks would not be compatible (unless that accounting firm also sold software). So the trademark(s) of the compnay was likely in classes 9 and/or 42 .. which encompasses almost everything digital in nature.

The possible bonus with it being tax software is that they might also have trademark rights in financial services categories .. which might then cover gambling depending on how gambling is regulated in various jurisdictions.

Again .. trademarks are USAGE based .. the apply to how you use them .. and more specifically you are protected for the entirety of the classes of that usage.

So the company that they bought the trademark from had protection in software classes .. that means that Facebook now owns the American trademark for the term "Libra" when it comes to EVERYTHING within the specific trademark classes (essentially anything software related).


if a libra domain is generic in nature its not a tm issue
for example libraslots just sold and it doesnt refer to fb libra, so im quite sure its safe from a fb tm issue
but if u have libracoins or libratokens thats another story as it is referring directly to the fb products
I have Libraology.com which i feel is quite generic as it can refer to the astrology niche
also LibraEmpowers.com

this saying can relate to the astrology niche of Libra as well but can cross over to fb Libra with little tm issues even though its mentioned in the Libra whitepaper as it doesnt refer to a fb tm product , it only generalizes

Again .. trademarks are USAGE based. My guess is that Astrology falls in an Entertainment related trademark class. So there is no conflict there for you to use Libra for an Astrology site ... but that goes back to .. who the heck is going to pay any serious money to buy a Libra astrology domain. Buying Libra astrology isn't a bad idea because of trademark problems .. it's a bad idea because you simply won't have a good probability to sell the domains at a high profit .. but to be clear .. you can own and develop all the astrology sites you want with the word Libra in it!

As for gambling .. that's a bit trickier ... they might or might not be safe. I'm thinking there could also be some issues as there might or might not be overlaps in trademark classes.

But again .. Libra+Gambling domains would be most valued by potential developers who would want to build on top of the Libra blockchain .. which would certainly be a violation the moment they were using software as a bridge to connect to the blockchain.

In the end, due to the heavy digital aspect of "online" gambling, chances are the Libra lawyers could very easily find something ... although to be clear .. it could potentially be possible to have some random gambling website completely unrelated to crypto or software and actually be safe .. AS LONG AS .. there is no hinting that the website focuses on gambling with Libra crypto.


At the end of the day you can use any Libra domain you want as long as it doesn't interfere in whatever classes Libra Crypto covers.

But that's my point .. in theory almost all Libra domains will be safe ... AS LONG AS they aren't used in any way related to the cryptocurrency .. which means that while you are legally safe holding an inactive domain ... no end user with trademark knowledge is ever going to use Libra in their own tradeamrk .. and therefore will never develop a Libra domain .. and therefore never buy a Libra domain ... thereby making most Libra domains effectively worthless unless they were already good domains to begin with.


For example .. LibraCasino actually makes for a good Casino brand (completely unrelated to Libra crypto), so YES .. it's a good domain.

Libraology and LibraEmpowers are domains with no significant potential end users .. so I'm sorry to say they are not very good domains outside the context of what will likely be a massive awareness campaign surrounding Libra crypto. HOWEVER ... that said .. if someone just wants to make a fan page or news site about Libra .. then they are possibly safe. A lot depends on if/how they make money .. and how extreme the Libra Foundation will be at protecting their brand. While in theory even selling advertisements on a website isn't allowed, they might only go after companies actively selling products and services.


It's still too early to say anything more specifically .. but at the end of the day .. Libra domains just aren't worth the bother in my opinion .. unless they make for a good brand in something completely unrelated already.
 
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Firstly, are you are acting on the behalf of facebook and the libra association?

Are you accusing me of unethically failing to disclose an interest in the matter?

I would be required to disclose that I was working for them.

But the question is really kind of silly from a broader perspective. If I was working for Facebook/Libra and I was telling people that these names may very well be problematic for obvious reasons, then that would certainly answer the question of what their enforcement plans are, now wouldn’t it.

You can go ahead and believe some anonymous person egging you on with false statements like “it’s only for tax services”. I just thought I’d address that ridiculous point.

You can believe whatever suits you. I have explained, on the basis of having represented domain registrants in literally hundreds of domain disputes over nearly two decades, what things a UDRP panel would consider significant here.

Have a good weekend and enjoy the rest of the thread. Ciao.
 
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Anyone that registered “Libra” domains has -
1. Lost their money
2. Operated in bad faith.

Go back to domaining 101 and learn how this game works!
Someone's jealous they didn't get in on LibraDomains fast enough!
 
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Someone's jealous they didn't get in on LibraDomains fast enough!
That’s funny.

I buy domains of value but would never infringe on what outside companies have built or prepared to brand.

It’s interesting, funny, yet sad, to see so many people that just don’t understand this business. What a waste.
 
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