If you are not using Epik.com for escrow, you are wasting time and money!

[Rob Monster]

Special Program for NamePros members only: Process your escrow transaction via Epik.com using bank transfer or major crypto, with a domain name registered at Epik.com and we'll waive the escrow fee completely! No escrow fee. No cashout fee. No kidding.

NamePros members are switching to Epik.com for Domain Name Escrow. Here's why:

- Lowest Fees: NamePros members pay no minimum fees. For domains registered at Epik.com, escrow is FREE when your buyer pays via bank transfer or major crypto. Otherwise, escrow is as low as 1.5%!

- Fast closing: Escrow transactions with domains registered at Epik, paid with major crypto or bank deposit can typically be closed within hours. We are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

- Secure Transactions: Epik.com is the only full-service escrow agent that is also a full-service accredited registrar. Transfer in and out within minutes. If a transaction is cancelled, your domain is not in limbo-land!

- Flexible payment solutions: Pay or get paid via wire transfer, ACH, major crypto, credit card, PayPal, Transferwise or Western Union. We support all major currencies, domain swaps and scheduled payments.

There has never been a better time to move your domains to Epik.com and to choose our integrated solutions for domain marketplace and escrow services.

To get started on your escrow transaction, simply go here:

https://www.epik.com/services/escrow/

To discuss your portfolio or escrow transaction, contact us at [email protected], visit us Epik.com or phone us at +1.425-366-8810 or US toll-free at +1.888-894-9026.

This is a sponsored post.​

 

[TCK]

https://www.namepros.com/threads/bo...os-just-got-repossessed.1144688/#post-7308144

Quickly read through the opening few posts. Sorry this happened to you. Correct me if I am wrong, but the deal started on NamePros and was transacted on Dan. So no escrow was used. GD flagged the domain as stolen and returned it to the rightful owner. Is that an accurate representation?

Whenever a seller is not willing to use a third-party regulated escrow, and on top they ask for crypto currency, that should raise red flags.

 

[Silentptnr]

Quickly read through the opening few posts. Sorry this happened to you. Correct me if I am wrong, but the deal started on NamePros and was transacted on Dan. So no escrow was used. GD flagged the domain as stolen and returned it to the rightful owner. Is that an accurate representation?

Whenever a seller is not willing to use a third-party regulated escrow, and on top they ask for crypto currency, that should raise red flags.

The problem was that GD emails were misleading, their explanation was not substantiated, and there was no reason that only after the domain was transferred to me, it was repossessed. They made it sound like the owner that pushed it to me, hadnt paid properly for it or something.

Whether I paid for the domain or it was free, they should never be able to repossess a domain name without a full explanation. Also, their position of "Selling the domain" if it could not be returned, I thought, was absolutely abhorrent.

 

[Rob Monster]

Quickly read through the opening few posts. Sorry this happened to you. Correct me if I am wrong, but the deal started on NamePros and was transacted on Dan. So no escrow was used. GD flagged the domain as stolen and returned it to the rightful owner. Is that an accurate representation?

Whenever a seller is not willing to use a third-party regulated escrow, and on top they ask for crypto currency, that should raise red flags.

As for transacting in crypto currencies, that is definitely precision work -- there is no recourse, so it is a case of internal controls and measure twice and cut once! That market is not going away.

I think the the topic of domain marketplaces being regulated really needs to be set aside for the moment. The point is that the buyer and seller should agree to use a TRUSTED third-party that is fiscally responsible

From what I observe directly, I actually think the States should have nothing to do with regulating domain marketplaces. They are not great at regulating this industry and would add no value whatsoever.

My personal assessment based on reviewing the case law is that the States are way out of their lane when they try to regulate domain marketplaces. For example:

- Murdock vs. Pennsylvania, 3019 US. 105 which ruled that “No state shall convert a liberty into a license and charge a fee therefore”.

- Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, 373 US 262: "If the state converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.”

If the states actually tried to force domain marketplaces to be regulated, I think it would be a very interesting Supreme Court case. The Supreme court is accessible for cases like this one. For example, my friend and Epik client, Jerry Burden, just won a Supreme Court case this year. If you missed that story, I covered it here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/fa...-in-the-supreme-court-about-copyright.1141282

In the meantime, I sincerely wonder if any one of these US state licensing authorities have looked at Freelancer's balance sheet even once. I rather doubt it. If Escrow.com bothers me again, I will start asking them. A local radio host in WA named Dori Monson would probably have a field day with this story. He loves to call out bureaucrats in Olympia who dropped the ball at the expense of taxpayers.

You may be amused to know that I have started meeting with state regulators in person including WA who I met last Thursday in Olympia. I have yet to bring up Escrow.com even once in any of those conversations. However, if you want to know how this poop-storm started, I invite you to read over the attached copy of the letter sent by Jackson Elsegood to Arizona's Department of Financial Institutions.

If you read it through, you will find that included in Jackson's self-serving tattletale correspondence there is an exhibit of a Tweet we made about Fund.com being done as a 7-figure transaction:

The Tweet was simply a congratulations to Andrew Rosener. We had nothing to do with the transaction whatsoever. Escrow.com works closely with Andrew so I am pretty sure they would know that we did not close this transaction. It is actually libelous since the caption says "Million Dollar transaction via Epik Escrow on January 12, 2019". That is a complete LIE! We did not do that transaction at all.

Yes, @Jackson Elsegood, screwed up big time. Also, @Matt Barrie, as presiding CEO of Escrow.com, will be very hard-pressed to distance himself from the libelous correspondence that was sent to multiple state agencies in their failed effort to stop Epik.

Long story short, if there is to be licensing, then let it be done by WIPO. As I see it, WIPO is already equipped to tie in with the existing workflows, e.g. UDRP which works reasonably well and is not outrageously expensive for dispute resolution about domains. Although it would take time for WIPO to evaluate whether this is in their scope, the idea that registrars and domain marketplaces would have to navigate dozens of understaffed state-regulators is Dead on Arrival.

 

[offthehandle]

I read the PDF, with screenshots of a previous thread about tax free and 1031 exchanges, which I thought only applied to real property. So to verify, I see this was a loophole before 2018.

Domains in my interpretation do not qualify to the IRS to be treated as a 1031 exchange.

“Effective Jan. 1, 2018, exchanges of personal or intangible property such as machinery, equipment, vehicles, artwork, collectibles, patents, and other intellectual property generally do not qualify for nonrecognition of gain or loss as like-kind exchanges. However, certain exchanges of mutual ditch, reservoir or irrigation stock are still eligible.”

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/like-kind-exchanges-now-limited-to-real-property

 

[Rob Monster]

I read the PDF, with screenshots of a previous thread about tax free and 1031 exchanges, which I thought only applied to real property. So to verify, I see this was a loophole before 2018.

Domains in my interpretation do not qualify to the IRS to be treated as a 1031 exchange.

“Effective Jan. 1, 2018, exchanges of personal or intangible property such as machinery, equipment, vehicles, artwork, collectibles, patents, and other intellectual property generally do not qualify for nonrecognition of gain or loss as like-kind exchanges. However, certain exchanges of mutual ditch, reservoir or irrigation stock are still eligible.”

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/like-kind-exchanges-now-limited-to-real-property

Welcome to this thread @offthehandle. Good to see you here.

Check the earlier posts in this thread where this topic has been discussed. There may be dedicated threads on NamePros specifically about tax strategy though it would vary widely by jurisdiction.

The short answer is the folks should consult their tax advisor. If there is a large domain sale for a US taxpayer where proceeds are to be reinvested ind domains, if it were me, I would seek a private letter ruling.

In the meantime, as the IRS taxes Federal Reserve Notes, Epik marketplace sales are denominated in Masterbucks. These are fully redeemable without additional fee. They can also be used to buy domains.

 

[xynames]

If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck it is...an escrow! and should be licensed regulated bonded all that.

This goes for UNDeveloped
https://dan.com/legal/terms-of-use
where the "Contractor" (UNDeveloped / DAN) is defined in their Terms of Service as the party that handles the transfer of the domain from the Provider (seller) to the Transferee (buyer) via Contractor's "escrow account"

and Epik "Escrow"

flat out mentions that it is an escrow too.

As far as the argument of "what could go wrong," I'd agree that the risk is small, but then so is the risk of your house burning down, so why bother with home insurance then is what the Monster appears to be saying here:

First of all, the odds of a botched domain transaction on Epik's integrated platform are relatively low. In the event of a truly botched transaction that could not be otherwise cured, I expect our first port of call for a material event would be to invoke our Errors and Omissions insurance policy. Depending on the nature of the event, there is also General Liability and Directors and Officers insurance coverage.

because Errors and Omissions and Directors and Officers insurance cover negligence only, and only negligence by Epik, not intentional acts of fraud by anyone, and might not cover the sorts of issues that might arise in an escrow, such as if a stolen domain were sold to a party, and then later retrieved via ICANN, leaving the buyer out the funds paid, unless Monster is saying that he'd step in and say "this is all our fault we should have screened the domain better" because absent such an admission, their insurance will not cover!

This is getting a little ridiculous here, either you're a licensed and bonded escrow, or you're grasping at straws at how you might cover a claim. I will agree that at least Epik is musing on how they might cover a claim, I can respect that, --- while UNDeveloped's game plan is to leave zero assets in their "escrow like" non-profit entity to avoid liability entirely - can't squeeze blood out of an UNDeveloped turnip is DAN's defense.

 

[Rob Monster]

Domain marketplaces are not -- and do not need to be -- regulated or licensed by uncoordinated agencies at the federal and state level. As a result, more transactions are shifting to nimble innovators that are able to deliver solutions for clearing transactions that offer:

- Secure asset handling
- Fast closing
- Cost-effective payment processing
- Responsible governance

Though never the intent, this thread has now brought to light some reasonable concerns about balance sheet weakness at the Escrow.com parent company, Freelancer. Earlier in this thread, Escrow management has acknowledged "My great financial analysis". That statement alone would be pretty hard to walk back!

In the coming days, Escrow.com will continue their narrative about the need for everyone to be licensed. Since it is Escrow.com's main differentiation, they will play it up. It is a fantasy. Ultimately the market will decide what it wants. NamePros as a forum is doing its job of providing a level playing field for that discussion.

In the meantime, the market directive is pretty simple: Caveat emptor

 

[Internet.Domains]

This whole "license" narrative is ridiculous. It make no sense for a domain marketplace or domain registrar to have an "escrow" license to exchange, buy or sell domains.

Domain marketplaces, those registered in the United States, are held to existing consumer protection laws. In the event of fraud the FTC is the authority, not some state level level licensing agency, as some are saying.

In addition, domain marketplaces that accept credit cards have merchant accounts that are regulated by banks. Those banks tightly watch for fraud. In the event of fraud they will instantly freeze the merchant account.

The point I am making is that in the event of fraud or catastrophic loss a small state licensing agency does nothing to protect the consumer.

The protection comes from consumer protection laws that currently exist in conjunction with banks that work on the back end of merchant accounts.

Please let's stop all this unnecessary licensing talk and let those that innovate, do just that, innovate.

 

[offthehandle]

Rob, If you look at the CQD mess as an example, a licensed company somehow missed that, even with KYC regulations, so why not simply guarantee title and do a “title search” (like RE title insurance service does, do due diligence, instead of putting that on the Customer) and also perform the transfer by receiving incoming domains, then you are then setting yourself up for guaranteed risk free transaction system, don’t use the word Escrow anymore. Use some other terminology. “Digital Asset Transfer Protection Service.”, you could sell websites w/ businesses too. And charge accordingly.

 

[wwwweb]

Rob, If you look at the CQD mess as an example, a licensed company somehow missed that, even with KYC regulations, so why not simply guarantee title and do a “title search” (like RE title insurance service does, do due diligence, instead of putting that on the Customer) and also perform the transfer by receiving incoming domains, then you are then setting yourself up for guaranteed risk free transaction system, don’t use the word Escrow anymore. Use some other terminology. “Digital Asset Transfer Protection Service.”, you could sell websites w/ businesses too. And charge accordingly.

The business of domain registrar is the buying, and selling of domain names.

The business of a car dealership is the buying, and selling of cars.

I mean this is pretty evident in the course of many businesses.

Blockchain, and crypto especially with the introduction of Libra we are going to the next level here. I still can’t believe namepros is so dependent on PayPal to this day.

 

[TCK]

The business of domain registrar is the buying, and selling of domain names.

I would disagree with this explicit statement.

A registrar’s primary business is the registration of domain names and the protection of such on behalf of the registrant. The registrant’s interests should be paramount. A registrar acts like a bank holding money on behalf of clients.

The registrar may engage in the sale and auction of registered and expired domains as long as it does not interfere with the protections and rights of the registrants. And in the case of registered domains, at the direction of the registrants.

Of course this is my interpretation.

 

[Rob Monster]

Rob, If you look at the CQD mess as an example, a licensed company somehow missed that, even with KYC regulations, so why not simply guarantee title and do a “title search” (like RE title insurance service does, do due diligence, instead of putting that on the Customer) and also perform the transfer by receiving incoming domains, then you are then setting yourself up for guaranteed risk free transaction system, don’t use the word Escrow anymore. Use some other terminology. “Digital Asset Transfer Protection Service.”, you could sell websites w/ businesses too. And charge accordingly.

We own Insure.Domains for such an application. The trouble is that no major insurance underwriter grasps the domain asset class well enough to have a serious conversation about insuring them. As a result, the idea sits on the horizon as a future project. In the meantime, I would say Epik has a comprehensive solution when it comes to domain asset protection. All of these features are included at no additional cost:

- Free WHOIS privacy proxy - https://anonymize.com/whois-protection/
- Free VPN client - https://anonymize.com/vpn/
- 2 Factor Authentication + Google Authenticator
- IP allow list management
- MaxLock

However insuring against loss does not protect someone from an arbitrary UDRP, or civil lawsuit, both of which can be expensive to defend. As such, I do think Domain insurance remains an interesting topic.

Speaking more specifically in the context of managing domain transactions for clients, the term commonly used for trusted 3rd party intermediary would be "escrow". We use it in the generic sense:

For anyone not aware, the term has been around since the 16th century, before a single US State even came into existence.

 

[Brandon Abbey]

Probably a little off-topic, but here are my thoughts.

I haven’t paid much attention to the escrow space since Payoneer closed their escrow operation and I left the company. Escrow software is available, but to do it the way I wanted it would have cost $1.5 million and taken close to two years. I do have a history with both Epik and Escrow.com. Here are some of my observations. While at Escrow.com we had a good relationship with Rob Monster and Epik. It was a form of coopetition, sure we competed at times, but we also worked together. That doesn’t appear to be the case anymore. Rob and I have kept in touch, not so with Matt Barrie.

When Escrow.com started there wasn’t a significant aftermarket for domain names. We kind of fell into it with encouragement from many of the top individuals in the business. After attending my first TRAFFIC conference I knew this was where we could make an impact. My thanks to many names you will see here - https://www.dnjournal.com/cover/2006/february.htm, especially Ron Jackson. The original plan was to provide escrow for vehicles and it never took off the way we had hoped. eBay Motors and AutoTrader were two of our first customers. When eBay bought PayPal in 2002 that relationship dwindled to a couple of transactions per month. At the time of the sale to Freelancer domain/website sales were about 75% of the business.

Escrow.com has certainly changed since I was there working with 15 very talented employees. From a recent article interviewing Barrie I noticed this - Today the company employs 72 people in five countries, mainly located in Australia but with its headquarters in San Francisco and offices in London, Buenos Aires and Manila. https://www.news.com.au/finance/bus...s/news-story/9f6a4d6951749db793bb49eebb46c920 That is some serious growth, congrats.

I can understand why Barrie is hot on the regulatory issues. From Freelancer 2018 annual report regarding Escrow.com - "as part of this process, in FY18 the division incurred one-off regulatory penalties of $0.8 million (FY17: $0.2 million) for unlicensed activity (substantially preacquisition). In addition the Company has further made provision of $0.4 million as an estimate of probable penalties." I wasn’t able to find the details of how transactions are handled on Freelancer’s own domain/website marketplace, Freemarket.com. I

Really off topic - Internet fraud was something of a hot button for me and I participated with the FBI and IC3 in their efforts to combat the fraudsters. Occasionally, I will send a note to Barrie when I see something that doesn’t look right - http://www.amazonautosales.us/ and https://paymentexchange.com/

 

[Internet.Domains]

Wow! Escrow.com incurred penalties for unlicensed activity. In addition they expect more penalties. How ironic.

They should probably tighten that ship before they tattle tale on domain marketplaces and domain registrars. That way they can continue in the auto business without further penalties.

If I trade a car I would consider Escrow.com.

If I trade a domain I feel safer and more secure with an accredited domain registrar.

We are really talking about two different industries while Escrow.com is trying to lump it all into one.

 

[TCK]

If I trade a car I would consider Escrow.com.

If I trade a domain I feel safer and more secure with an accredited domain registrar.

I don’t understand this point. You are conflating 2 different things.

When you sell/buy a domain, you are dealing with an accredited registrar. Always. It’s not like you have a choice.

The choice is who the seller AND (primarily) the buyer trust to hold the money during the transfer of the domain.

 

[TCK]

Also, when you tell a buyer that the domain transaction is handled through “escrow”, are you and the buyer thinking the same thing? Or define what escrow is in the same way?

 

[Internet.Domains]

I don’t understand this point. You are conflating 2 different things.

No, it's not me "conflating two different things." Escrow.com has been doing this in the entire conversation. Their business covers several different industries with very different regulations and they are lumping it all into one.

Also, when you tell a buyer that the domain transaction is handled through “escrow”, are you and the buyer thinking the same thing?

As with all sales, communication is paramount. COMMUNICATION is a basic tenant of sales. It's important to discuss the transaction with your buyer and find where their knowledge may deviate from yours. Being in sales for many years I can safely conclude it's more about "educating" than anything else. Generally, good teachers make good sales people.

 

[TCK]

No, it's not me "conflating two different things." Escrow.com has been doing this in the entire conversation. Their business covers several different industries with very different regulations and they are lumping it all into one.

As with all sales, communication is paramount. COMMUNICATION is a basic tenant of sales. It's important to discuss the transaction with your buyer and find where their knowledge may deviate from yours. Being in sales for many years I can safely conclude it's more about "educating" than anything else. Generally, good teachers make good sales people.

First off, I do not represent Escrow.com. But from what I've seen, they only do 1 thing and that is hold the buyer's money in trust until the buyer confirms receipt of the merchandise, service, or intangible asset (i.e.domain or website). You make it sound like they actually sell cars.

Also, I agree that communication is important. But if you have to explain a version of "escrow" that is different from what the buyer knows is escrow, then you are losing the sale in all likelihood.

The problem is not that Epik is taking the buyer's money, then buying your domain, then pushing the domain to the buyer's Epik account. The confusion lies in using the word "escrow" to advertise this service. IMHO.

 

[Internet.Domains]

The confusion lies in using the word "escrow" to advertise this service. IMHO.

If you remain confused I suggest using a dictionary for the term "escrow."

 

[TCK]

If you remain confused I suggest using a dictionary for the term "escrow."

I did. Let me ask you this. Would the situation where the seller/registrar of a domain offering an "escrow" service fall under the dictionary definition of escrow? I know we are not lawyers, but based solely on the dictionary definition.

 

[Internet.Domains]

I did. Let me ask you this. Would the situation where the seller/registrar of a domain offering an "escrow" service fall under the dictionary definition of escrow? I know we are not lawyers, but based solely on the dictionary definition.

The focus should be understood that not all items are regulated the same with escrow services. Tangible, intangible, automobiles, homes, internet domains all have different standards and regulations.

Trying to consolidate an accredited domain registrar and domain marketplace with the same escrow standards and regulations as automobile escrow is unfair at best.

 

[TCK]

Trying to consolidate an accredited domain registrar and domain marketplace with the same escrow standards and regulations as automobile escrow is unfair at best.

But at the very least we should agree that an escrow service should have sufficient funds in a trust to protect buyers from unforeseen catastrophic events.

However, by definition an escrow provider is an independent third party. Regulations notwithstanding.

When a registrar takes money from a buyer then pays the seller then pushes the domain. All of which occur inside the registrar, meaning the domain stays in control of the registrar the whole time. Who is the independent third party? This does not sound like escrow as per dictionary definition.

 

[Brandon Abbey]

Trying to consolidate an accredited domain registrar and domain marketplace with the same escrow standards and regulations as automobile escrow is unfair at best.[/QUOTE]

I agree, we had a specially trained team that handled all the vehicle escrows. Collecting ownership documents and managing the transfer with the local department of motor vehicles is complicated. Like the escrow licensing requirements, each state has its own set of registration and tax requirements. Airplane escrow is another very specialized transaction, when I was there we never completed one as the experts are a handful of companies located in Oklahoma City.

 

[TCK]

I agree, we had a specially trained team that handled all the vehicle escrows. Collecting ownership documents and managing the transfer with the local department of motor vehicles is complicated. Like the escrow licensing requirements, each state has its own set of registration and tax requirements. Airplane escrow is another very specialized transaction, when I was there we never completed one as the experts are a handful of companies located in Oklahoma City.

The only licensed escrow provider that is dedicated strictly to domain name transactions, that I am aware of, is Escrow.Domains.

Our domain marketplace builder CMS (see the link in my signature) offers them as an escrow option for buyers, along with Escrow.com.

Escrow.Domains is operated by a law firm which makes sense as lawyers are frequently hired for escrow services.

IMO, using the word "escrow" when not licensed for such opens up to potential legal liabilities. Maybe @jberryhill can clarify on this.

The type of transactions that Epik is advertising as "escrow" is not uncommon among registrars. But different language may be more appropriate. I can't see a registrar offering escrow on domain sales that are made exclusively on their own platform. Not by dictionary definition.

 

[BrandEntrance.com]

Disclosing details of a private conversation.... NOT COOL!

That would be 'career over' here in Sweden. Here there is an assumed 'Gentleman's agreement' and breaking those rules makes you a liability.

So this means that if the subject of an NDA is missed, it's still there. Just like one's renommé is there too.