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IDN facts - By Olney

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I'd like to clear up some things about IDN Domains which some are talking about the commercial success of IDN Domains instead of informing the NP community about exactly why IDN Domains are needed.

IDN Domains are greatly needed for countries that's language is not based on the latin language. Technology issues is what held IDN Domains back but IE which was the biggest factor in the countries not adapting IDN Domains is going to resolve the issues with the release of IE7

I'll try to answer some IDN related questions here as posted but I will try to post info on common misconceptions as I see. I'm an American SEO consultant, & web site developer fluent reading & writing in Japanese. (My reading is better than my writing but you get the point).

I'll talk about IDN Domains for the average Japanese person. I have been doing research on the internet use of Japanese since September of last year.

Except for the US most other countries was late getting on the internet. Most simple dot coms are already registered. Japan made the dot jp extension to accomodate for this but truthfully if you are Japanese there's a problem that others can't see that arises.

It might sound really hard to believe but this is said with research from native Japanese. Japanese people living in Japan can not remember ASCII domain names. This is a fact. IDN Domains allows them to type the domain in native Japanese.

Also there is the search engine (SEO) value. Any ASCII domain has about as much potential to rank for Japanese keywords because the actual native keyword is not in the domain. With IDN Domains the actual keyword (native) is there.

On Japanese blogs Japanese SEOs are noticing that the search engine algorithms are changing to boost Japanese IDNs in the rankings. Google Japan & Yahoo Japan also made IDN Domains show up properly in search results.

Japanese don't do type ins currently because the URLs are in ASCII form. They know they can't spell a lot of them correctly. A Japanese word spelled in English can be spelled multiple ways. Even the word Tokyo is actually Toukyou in Japanese if I spelled it the way I world write it. For a Japanese to go to a web site. This is the process.

They go to their bookmark of Google Japan or Yahoo! Japan. & type in the web site's name in Japanese. This exact pattern I have seen over & over every single day watching that no matter what URL I give them or site they want to go to, Japanese do it this way only because they can not remember how to spell every URL.

The advertisements in Tokyo for IDN Domains is usually stating "Finally easy to remember Domain names".
For a company this is a big issue. For users this is a big issue.

There's more & I know many will ask questions like:
But they have to switch over the encode on they keyboard.
Japanese can switch over the encode with one single button, & truthfully I switch the encode but found out they actually don't even have to. They can type in the extension the same as switching to the right Chinese characters.

I keep hearing about an IDN keyboard. Japanese use a normal keyboard just like in English. Mentally they use the English letters to type in their language but Japanese NEVER EVER PHYSICALLY SEE their own language in Roman letters.

I promote IDNs to anyone who is interested in learning about them. Many domainers have roots in other countries or see that IDN Domains is a parallel of domaining in English in multiple languages.

Will this be an instant winfall?
By no means no. I fully expected when I started registering domains that it should be at least 1 or 2 years after IE7 is released before IDN Domains are in full use. The site I created about IDN Domains gave people a chance to look over the reality of them & see if they would like to be a part of it at it's infancy. I posted on my site that NP since it has a wide range of young people has the most potential for users to "get" the concept of IDN Domains.
Sedo, NameDrive, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Yahoo & other companies see the value in them too (as far as user value).

Most info about the progress of IDN Domains will not be presented in English because most will just assume that domains in Romain letters is the standard & everyone is used to it. They might be "used" to it but can't fully function with them like a person from a country that uses Romain letters. This is a fact. Asians that are Asian American, & Asians not able to function in English are two seperate entities.


Any questions or comments just post them I'll try to answer some as I have time. I only am limited in my knowledge about the Chinese firewall thing...
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
mulligan said:
A trademark is a trademark is a trademark regardless of which country the name/IDN is registered in.
Not true. There are a many different types of trademarks/registrations. In the US you can register a trademark at the state or federal level. You can register trademarks in other countries, and these have no bearing on trademark use in countries they are not registered in, or not covered by some treaty.

I think that what you see is names that are a trademark in multiple countries. No one is going to argue that Citizen is not a watch trademark in China. They've been selling there for ages. However other companies that were not in China when their name was registered have lost. Google.cn is a classic example of how this happens.
 
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When you think of a domain like TimeSharecondos.com
It's still pretty much generic. Now IDNs are domains in the native language.

Now lets take timesharecondos.com
In Japanese you can have
1. Literal translation where you have the Japanese characters "almost" sounding like the term
2. A complete translation...

Here's where problems would arise with someone trying to stake clame to IDNs (that is generic)

1. Since this is the sound of the domain I can just register timeshearcondo.com, timusharucondo.com, or many others & it too would sound like the IDN version.
2. The terms are still pretty generic & if you think about a complete translation there is probably a business in Japan with that name already.
3. If the ASCII version has rights in other languages where will it stop? Do they get the translation in ALL world languages? Languages are all different, there may be several ways to translate things, does the ASCII holder get to just pick the best?

There are some companies that don't own their trademark the same way as in the States. A good example is Apple. The beatle's label owns the Apple trademark for music in England.

but with IDNs also I believe many of us have regged another companies trademark or sitename by mistake (those with hundreds of IDNs already)..

I can't tell you what direction to go in, but I wouldn't dwell on translating others trademarks. They'll be in your portfolio for a while.

goodkarmaco said:
Olney,,
So I suppose the name I own and offer for sale, that is money.com in idn is o.k. to own as pretty sure you cannot trademark a noun such as that?

But for example if I owned timesharecondos.com and it is a name I registered in the U.S. and it does have a trademark for the U.S. So then is it O.K. for another person to register it (timesharecondos) in idn in another country as long as the trademark is not registered in that country?.

By the way are you American?. You have excellant english and good command of the language.

Roderick
 
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First off, it is a companies responsibility to defend it own trademarks not the transgressor. No transgressor has done anything illegal until formally warned by the owner of the trademark.

Second, the trademark is in general a graphical representation which may include but is not limited to Text. It is the graphical representation that is trademarked not the concepts that that representation represents.

Unless separately registered translations are not covered by Trademark Registration. Generic terms remain generic if correctly translated. Transliterations are character by character subsitution translations rather than dictionary translations. These do not exist naturally in the new language. Even generic terms can become solid trademarks if translated in this way.
 
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This wouldn't be what I was talking about RJ... Like RubberDuck said a made up trademarked name would be different. The literal translation of a word like Yahoo, Google, YouTube etc would hold up.. it's a companies trademarked brand.

When you have something that the other country might use themselves like
books.com, cars.com, money.com, spyware.com, business.com

It's terms that would be generic hard.

Also I believe Walmark would have an entity in China, Japan, & Korea.

-RJ- said:
Wal-Mart just won the UDRP case against 월마트.com

http://arbiter.wipo.int/cgi-bin/domains/search/CaseCatReport?case=D2005-1299

I can't read Chinese, so I'm unsure of the deails but its safe to assume their trademark was upheld even in IDN form.
 
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Olney said:
This wouldn't be what I was talking about RJ... Like RubberDuck said a made up trademarked name would be different. The literal translation of a word like Yahoo, Google, YouTube etc would hold up.. it's a companies trademarked brand.

When you have something that the other country might use themselves like
books.com, cars.com, money.com, spyware.com, business.com

It's terms that would be generic hard.

Also I believe Walmark would have an entity in China, Japan, & Korea.

I think you may be struggling with terminology here and hence causing some confusion.

Literal Translation is Word by Word

Transliteration is Character by Character
 
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Wal-Mart just won the UDRP case against 월마트.com
FYI - 월마트 is the transliteration of Walmart in Korean.
 
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Brain pop

Thanks everyone!

I actually learned something today! That does not always happen. Great discussion.

Roderick
 
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Thank you RD for clearing that up.
And to answer goodkarmaco I'm actually 100% American, no Asian blood at at. I'm just fluent in Japanese.

Also do note. I would highly recommend NOT registering a domain that you know is a blatant trademark in the US... Remember dot coms ARE controlled by the US.. You never know what the law will allow.


Rubber Duck said:
I think you may be struggling with terminology here and hence causing some confusion.

Literal Translation is Word by Word

Transliteration is Character by Character
 
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How many cats?

Ok, To sound stupid here, as I am so new to idn and I don't know for sure what a person would register. Lets say I wanted to get a idn for a word such as cat. Are many different words available for cat or do I simply get "cat"?

What is the procedure? Lets say I go to Godadd- and click on Idn, Does it resolve to the idn when I pick out the word cat? I am asking this as I bought my idn.. I never actually registered it.

Olney, What a great advantage you have to be affluent in a different language. Have you been picking up idns for long?

Thanks much,

Roderick
 
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Languages are all different. It's not math. You have to translate what you want exactly. Nouns are usually the easiest to translate (for Asian languages) example for Japanese there's "usually" no singular or plural, so their is no "cat & cats" usually just cats.

I'd go with Google Translate initially. Google is pretty good with their technology.

Your computer also has to have language's character set installed. This is so you can display the language correctly. Highly recommended is to read up also a bit about the structure of the language. Even if you can't speak it, read it, or write it knowning a bit about the structure of a language helps, a bit about the writing system, & a bit about the grammatical system.

When you do find a term you want to check
Input it from your translation in native form. Usually people copy & paste. I started copying & pasting more too I have actually mispelled a few of my domains in Japanese (only about 3 total).

Just like any normal domain an IDN enabled registry will tell you if it's available or not. It will also give you punycode, it's like a mapping system to access your domain without the native characters.

but even here there is some info about IDNs good luck.. (sift through the occasional bickering)

I've been into IDNs for less that one year.
This thread sums up the industries perception on IDNs 1 year ago.
http://www.namepros.com/domain-appraisals/122358-2-highest-stat-japanese-video-game.html

At that point I decided I want to increase the facts & resources a bit about IDN Domains.

There was a few other things to get in the market

at that time
1. There was like me & Rubber Duck emailing each other about registrations
2. I picked up absolute premium Japanese gems like Anime.com, Sale.com, AdultVideo.com, & domains with OVTjp over 1,000,000.
3. I kept hearing RD talk about IE7 but I'm a mac user, I could access IDN Domains straight away because Safari & Firefox is IDN compatible. I never realized PCs using IE6 couldn't access IDNs at all until like December or January.


I'm also into SEO & web development. IDNs are the exact keyword in the native languages. They have SEO benefits.
 
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mulligan said:
A trademark is a trademark is a trademark regardless of which country the name/IDN is registered in.

If you went and registered Honda.com (A Japanese company) in english or Japanese they will take it off you..

The fact the name is registered in a country different to the country of the business has no bearing on trademark infringment.

IDN.com/.net are all subject to the same 'rules' as ASCII.com/.net
Not entirely correct. To have the TM "global" you must file and pay more $ to the madrid covention for international registration of marks.
 
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How to enable idns

O.K., Appreciate you explaining this to me and it is difficult to understand so I will just go slow at it. But how do I get my computer to to enable language characters? Do I purchase something or download a program?

Like Chinese say "many thanks"

Roderick
 
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goodkarmaco said:
O.K., Appreciate you explaining this to me and it is difficult to understand so I will just go slow at it. But how do I get my computer to to enable language characters? Do I purchase something or download a program?

Like Chinese say "many thanks"

Roderick

http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts_windows.html

That should help you out ..

Or you can check the thread here for other options http://www.IDNF/forums/1356-installing-language-support.html?highlight=fonts
 
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Go to Start -> Settings -> Control Panel

Then to Languages and Regional Settings or something similar.

There should be a tab there that lets you check East Asian Languages and Complex Right to Left languages. This will add the necessary fonts to your Windows directory.
 
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Thanks, the genius1 and fabfive for the links.. now to figure it all out.

Whats funny and what brought me to be interesed in idns is a while ago Afternic did not show if the name was a idn in the bazaar and I was new to domaining.

So I see this name listed for sale "money.com" and it seems ridicoulously low priced. But there it was listed as money.com and since I like money I bid on it and won. Then the dude turns over the name in punycode to me!

That pissed me off royally and posted in Discuss names whats up. Everyone tells me I should have known better! Bullshi- If they list a name for sale and it says money.com with absoulutely no explantaion that it was a idn, well then that is fraudelent.

Nope, everyone in discuss name- says I was dumb for buying such a name with such a high profile thinking it could be the real name and not the idn.

When I am right I am right. Long story short.. I bitched and bitched and said the bazaar was wrong in allowing members to post a name for sale saying only money.com is for sale.. then when it is bought getting the name in a idn.

After a couple months the bazaar CHANGED its rules and now when it is a idn you must list it as such.

My whole point to them was, yeah if you have been in this a business for a while you would know what a idn is, but like me as a newbie a few years ago I did not.

So now after doing all that I am thinking maybe that was a windfall for me to get the name money.com in puny code.. maybe it is worth a few bucks? lol.

Roderick
 
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What language is it in, goodkarmaco?
 
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Sorry for your bad experience. It was all too common a while ago that these type of phishing domains where on sale everywhere. The important thing to note is this type of domain is not what IDNs are all about. I'm guessing the money.com that you bought had a cyrillic 'o' or 'e' instead of the latin version. These domains are worthless and have given IDNs a bad name for a long time. Thankfully, mixed cyrillic + latin IDNs have now been banned - you cannot register new ones.

The true value of IDNs is in giving non-English speakers a more intuitive way to navigate the internet.

Good luck.

-- edited --

For clarification are you saying that you bought "money" is another language or what looked like "money.com" in English but wasn't?
 
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Yeah those of us that are into IDNs are pretty strong against the sale of domains that "look" like English domains but are IDNs.

So anyone posting one of these domains for sale on domain forums can just expect not so positive responses.
 
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domains to sell,

The name I bought is xn--mney-vga with the .com ext. I don't know anything about idns so I have no idea of what language that is. I assumed all idns were in that spell code?

Fabfive, so is this one of the worthless types you are talking about? Can't wait to hear the answer to that one and to anyone jumping into idns, I guess the moral here is knowledge is king.

Olney, Yeah and before I bought the name I emailed the seller just to make sure I was not getting burned and asked the guy.. so are you selling money.com? .. He emails me back and says yes the name you get will be money.com

Then like I say when the name was paid for he delivers the idn. The guy sells pocket torches or something like that. I know where he can put the pocket torch and light it when it gets put there too, Lol.

The thing is though and that is why I stuck my ground is everyone just kept saying to forget about it. I thought it is no different than getting mislead by any ad or salesmen. You can't put a ad in the paper and say brand new fridgerator with a icebox $499., and then deliver a paper bag with a block of ice in it.

So for ever Afterni- allowed idn owners to not even say the name was in puny code in the listing. Now it has to be spelled out. Now no person will be a target for sloppy domain sellers. This is a profession afterall.

Fortunately I have not made too many mistakes in this business and want to learn quickly from the ones I do make. It sure helps to get free advice from experts.

The whole thing would have not bothered me in the least if in the description it stated, " you are buying a idn which is a puny code for money". That is what I finally convinced the forum is what should be assoiated when a name that is idn is sold.

So if a change for something is needed, don't give up.. someone might just listen to you.

Many thanks,

Roderick
 
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Tragic tale. Yes, unfortunately in the US domain market most cannot see beyond the phishing potential which in any case is being quickly eliminated.

I seem to remember this sale coming up and being discussed at IDNF at the time. I guess we probably had a laugh at your expense. Yes knowledge is king and most of that is available at IDNFs where there are over 5K threads on the subject.

If you look at the punycode it is in three parts. The xn-- shows that it is punycode or IDN. The fact that the rest is split indicates a mixture of ASCII and extended Unicode character. The mney are Latin. The other character will come from some obscure character set such as Macedonian. Money is only money in English and English is only written in the Latin Characters you find in ASCII, so straight away, you know it is worthless.

If you buy in a forum like IDNFs, you have a lot of feedback on sellers and if other members know there to be issues with a domain, they will attack the sales thread. This behaviour is frowned on elsewhere but encouraged within limits at IDNFs. If this domain had been posted there, this guy would have been chased out of town.

goodkarmaco said:
domains to sell,

The name I bought is xn--mney-vga with the .com ext. I don't know anything about idns so I have no idea of what language that is. I assumed all idns were in that spell code?

Fabfive, so is this one of the worthless types you are talking about? Can't wait to hear the answer to that one and to anyone jumping into idns, I guess the moral here is knowledge is king.

Olney, Yeah and before I bought the name I emailed the seller just to make sure I was not getting burned and asked the guy.. so are you selling money.com? .. He emails me back and says yes the name you get will be money.com

Then like I say when the name was paid for he delivers the idn. The guy sells pocket torches or something like that. I know where he can put the pocket torch and light it when it gets put there too, Lol.

The thing is though and that is why I stuck my ground is everyone just kept saying to forget about it. I thought it is no different than getting mislead by any ad or salesmen. You can't put a ad in the paper and say brand new fridgerator with a icebox $499., and then deliver a paper bag with a block of ice in it.

So for ever Afterni- allowed idn owners to not even say the name was in puny code in the listing. Now it has to be spelled out. Now no person will be a target for sloppy domain sellers. This is a profession afterall.

Fortunately I have not made too many mistakes in this business and want to learn quickly from the ones I do make. It sure helps to get free advice from experts.

The whole thing would have not bothered me in the least if in the description it stated, " you are buying a idn which is a puny code for money". That is what I finally convinced the forum is what should be assoiated when a name that is idn is sold.

So if a change for something is needed, don't give up.. someone might just listen to you.

Many thanks,

Roderick
 
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goodkarmaco said:
domains to sell,

The name I bought is xn--mney-vga with the .com ext. I don't know anything about idns so I have no idea of what language that is. I assumed all idns were in that spell code?

Ah, now I understand. I thought you had bought a translation of "money" in another language, not one of these unfortunate rip-offs. Sorry for your bad experience.
 
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Are you sure that you got xn--mney-vga.com? When I put that into the punycode converter I get this: m®ney.com and it shows up as available.
 
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Rubber duck.. you guys don't miss a thing, about the proper spelling of the idn you are correct. I do not own it as a vga. the proper spelling I own it is xn--mney-vqa.com

Not the g in vqa but a (q). Thanks for catching that!

I assume it is worthless and wish I had posted this a sooner as I think I just renewed the damn thing.

So should I just let it expire in a year?

I don't mind a little humour at my expense as long as I learn from it. The domain world is truly a small one with many good and bad domainers. I will check out this forum before I register or buy anything in idn. Also I will look to buy from respected members here for my idns.

Appreciate you folks will not tolerate a misguided sale of a idn.

Also I do not know if I needed to do something different for it to resolve as I get no traffic to it and it is parked at Goldke-

Fabfive, I will send you a pm if thats ok.

Roderick
 
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goodkarmaco said:
Rubber duck.. you guys don't miss a thing, about the proper spelling of the idn you are correct. I do not own it as a vga. the proper spelling I own it is xn--mney-vqa.com

Not the g in vqa but a (q). Thanks for catching that!

I assume it is worthless and wish I had posted this a sooner as I think I just renewed the damn thing.

So should I just let it expire in a year?

I don't mind a little humour at my expense as long as I learn from it. The domain world is truly a small one with many good and bad domainers. I will check out this forum before I register or buy anything in idn. Also I will look to buy from respected members here for my idns.

Appreciate you folks will not tolerate a misguided sale of a idn.

Also I do not know if I needed to do something different for it to resolve as I get no traffic to it and it is parked at Goldke-

Fabfive, I will send you a pm if thats ok.

Roderick
Drop the name. It isn't worth a cent and people will look down upon you in the future.
 
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