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Hand Registering Domains Is Not Domain Investing

Labeled as opinion in General Domain Discussion, started by DN Playbook, Jul 15, 2021

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  1. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    As I said, thats simply my view of things.

    I like to think of an investor as one who spends more capital and intellect but less engagement in businesses, vs an entrepreneur. By engagement I mean sweat and effort.

    Applied to domains it translates to acquiring quality domains with a large audience that are going to have good price tags.
    Vs. grinding your way using hand regs of all sorts.

    First scenario requires more capital, yields guaranteed results.
    2nd requires more work, results can be satisfying, but vary (lots of failures).

    After experience, Id get rid of the low xxx xxxx domains, just to save time and effort.

    You spend $200 per domain.
    5000 domain portfolio. $1.000.000 spent.
    Quality domains, large audience (can be used in many categories/industries).

    $5000 price tag at 1% str would give you 50 sales or 250k per year, 240k profit, 20k per month.

    1% str, $5000. Bare minimum.

    Finding 50 quality domains per year at 200$ to replace ongoing sales shouldnt be too hard.

    I see domain investing as more capital, and intellect. Works if you know what you are doing.

    Thats just my view, dont take it personal.

    Edit: after a quick stint with shooting the moon, I'll never do it again.
    Good domain, good price.
    Cheap domain, cheap price.
    Otherwise go home.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  2. twiki

    twiki Top Contributor VIP Gold Account

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    Okay, in such case it's your right to view things as you like, and I will not take things personal. We agree to disagree.

    To be more clear why I disagree.

    I personally have bets all over the board. I buy domains daily, sometimes as high as close to $1k. $200 are common. But these will take time to sell as you need that retail customer for them. I also get a lot of drops, closeouts, some auctions, make offers on Sedo and Gd etc etc. Also handregs. Everything and everywhere, so I'm all over the board. And this won't likely change soon. Nowadays, drops are still bread and butter but things are changing over time.

    My point is, you're drawing some lines in the sand and you're okay to do so - as per your own opinion. I just don't see these lines there. To me, they are quite blurry and the 5K limit doesn't make much sense. With enough research you can handreg a domain that is worth 5-fig (I have some). 5K+ are rather easy to handreg IF you know what to do. And buying names for $200 doesn't necessarily turn you into an investor. Look at DC auctions - many of those domains sold there are heavily overpriced so there's no meat left on the bone.

    You also need to understand that the biggest investors haven't paid $200 per domain. They simply regged or bought a ton for cheap and kept them for 15 years or whatever. That makes them NOT investors as per your definition, but given enough time, they become.

    There are different types of investment, and regardless of what you think, if you buy domains and plan to hold them for a decade because you know they are indeed valuable, you're an investor not a dealer (buy/sell now).
     
  3. Andrrey

    Andrrey Established Member

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  4. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    I know you Ive read your posts.
    You're sharp and your competitive advantage imo is your previous experience in business.
    You are an exception.
    Most domainers fail, others end up stagnating over the years.
    Because of simple mistakes like using $1000 for 50 closeouts, selling one for $1000, and not doubling portfolio size (buying a new computer and relying on a possible sale from the other 49 to buy some domains later).
    Thats where your experience in business comes in. Working with numbers, knowing where you stand, and where you are going. The guy thats sold lemonade, trimmed grass, and manufactured small goods, all in a one year period is going to acquire business acumen that most people dont have.

    Yes you can hand reg 5 fig domains, but not viable because it would take too much time and effort to find one and have a decent number of domains. So its impossible.

    "Im a domain investor.
    Hows my investment going.
    Great, put a $1.000.000. Its yielding a minimum of 250k every year, up to who knows what :). Acquisition 10k renewals 40k."

    "Im a domain entrepreneur.
    Hows my business going.
    Good, invested $50.000. Made 250k this year. I should double next year.
    ps: taking all my time.".

    Investors are thinking long term. Less work, more capital & intellect.
    Whereas entrepreneurs are fueled by ambition, they love to grind.

    My idea describes the simplest and easiest way to become a successful domain investor after gaining experience, if you have capital.
    Quality domains, targeted at a large audience, minimum price tag of $5000.
    Not just buying $200 domains and selling them for $5000, but coming with a million dollars with the intention of buying 5000 quality domains, each with a large audience, with the intention of selling them for a minimum of $5000.
    Capital, and intellect (Clear, bulletproof plan).
    $200, 5000 domains, $5000 dollars, are just random numbers to illustrate an idea.

    You've got experience, capital, and multiple recipes right.
    Will you keep going endlessly up to a giant HD spiderweb (entrepreneur).
    Or will you inject capital and keep it nice and easy with a quality, bulletproof portfolio (investor).

    ps real estate is the best investment.
    Not forest houses, of course.
     
  5. twiki

    twiki Top Contributor VIP Gold Account

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    I must agree that while I don't see myself different than anyone else here, the results seem to stand out. So I have to keep in mind that my position vs. domaining is not going to be common, and indeed I have several things got right. This view is sort of a judgement mistake and will have to keep that in mind somehow.

    The reason I have trouble seeing myself as different or above any other domainer is that such thought feeds the ego and it's not good. But one has to reconcile all these aspects. Maybe this explains the reaction, though ego sometimes kicks in before you can recognize it.

    I'm going to reply below but then I'll stop any personal references.

    Since you asked, my investment is a dual phase. I'm not that young anymore so I'm preparing for retirement, although there are still enough years ahead. But getting a portfolio of that size takes time and work, especially if you don't start with 7-figure investment. I started with 5-fig, approaching 6-fig next.

    The current phase is expansion. In this phase I focus less on profit but more on growth. Due to this, I'm not in a hurry to go passive so it seems at least for now as a business rather than investment.

    However, my end goal is passive revenue, investor revenue. Several years from now on I will stop the buying flux and focus on other things in life while enjoying the revenue as long as I live. I also have family that will continue this after I won't be able to.

    The thing is, as I see it, often there is not much difference between a proper hand reg today and a $300 buy in 2-3 years. Domain pricing is going up for the good names, and will continue to do so. Scarcity also increases. So again I don't see the difference between a hand reg, a drop or a $200 investment or more. What matters is the quality of name.

    I've just gotten a closeout yesterday, a drop reg and several handregs that are definitely 5-fig material. Will see how this unfolds. Selling 5-fig is a matter of time, well, most domainers don't have that time as they need to feed themselves today. I don't have that need. What people see today in my reported sales is just the surface. It's not the bulk of investment, that will gradually start to show over the next few years. I've tripled my pricing lately on many .coms and will be staying on that level until the market catches up with that pricing.

    I've been inspired an both un-inspired by BuyDomains. They got some things straight and some wrong. They thrown a ton of money at domains and simply renewed them. They have a lot of good names but also a lot of bad ones that sometimes I wonder who on earth is still vouching for renewing these. But the idea is very simple - they don't discount much, if at all. So the sales pay for the bad names too. It's what I call blanket investing, like the one that buys names on Sav and lists them for $280 - don't remember the name but anyway.

    The point is, the same can be done today. You spend some 5-6 fig on very well researched .com handregs and some low xxx buys, well if done correctly, you'll make a fortune from these over the next 10 years.

    This is why I would still not make the difference like you described - but this is my perspective and as you correctly pointed out, it's not the common one. Indeed, similarly to a real estate investor, an investor is not one who hustles a few houses but the one which has a few mil and straight buys out property at investor pricing and waits until the time comes to sell. these won't buy cheap houses but rather valuable properties where ROI would be significant.

    And domains are online real estate I must observe.

    Edit: In the last 20 years I've always been about passive income. I had that for almost all the time with just 3-4 years exception, different streams. I had software sales, online ads revenue and others. I still have another business with a hired manager, well, I consume zero time on that nowadays so it's also passive. Though it's a day business not an investment in this case.

    I guess the end goal of any domainer here should be getting to the level where the portfolio sells itself, which means passive income. So you can focus on the good things in life and do something different and motivating, be it exciting, relaxing or soul-nourishing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  6. oldtimer

    oldtimer Do some good for humanity and the environment VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Don't worry it's never too late to repent and change your old ways. :xf.smile::xf.wink::angelic:

    Joking aside, what I like about domaining is that there really are no set rules on how to become successful.

    Domaining is part Art, skill, and luck and it can be looked at as both a gamble, speculation, investment, entertainment, and even charity depending on the circumstances.

    There are many ways that one can make it to the top, there are also many ways that one can fail, but failure is not the end as one can change strategy and try a whole new method and or category again and again until they make it.

    People have been arguing and debating ever since that I can remember to try to bring some sense to what the rules are when it comes to domaining and how to define what they are doing, but then all of a sudden a newcomer comes along and proves all the Oldtimers wrong.

    So in my opinion best not try to look for precise definitions of things when it comes to domaining. As long as you are happy doing what you do and are satisfied with the results then you should be thankful.

    In many cases whether you are gambling or investing only becomes apparent many years after the fact. Like there is already some talk about the second round of the New gTLDs that are going to be released in the next few years, but there really is no way to know for sure which one of the new extensions are going to make it to the top and so people are going to make some educated guesses and try to take their chances with a few that they think are going to become a viable alternative to the already established extensions such as .com and if those new extensions manage to rise to the top (like .xyz apparently has done) then people who bought those domains at 99 cents each are going to be considered as the best and wisest investors, but otherwise if those new extensions sink then the people who bought into them are going to be looked at as being the biggest fools.

    IMO
     
  7. HotKey

    HotKey Made in Canada VIP

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    I like this nutshell of an explanation. I think though long-term investing is also a grind, there is monitoring and adjusting to be done to the current markets and forecasts. If once you've reached a comfort zone of where investments no longer require a certain amount of diligence, than that's a luxury that kind of falls out the realm most domainers are familiar with.

    Certainly we can strive for it. One can enjoy being an entrepeneur their entire career, their grinds are their investments.
     
  8. DN Playbook

    DN Playbook Established Member

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    It's not about right and wrong. The OP is not anti hand reg'ing. The point is that there is more to investing than the act of registering a new domain. I think other posts already expounded on this in detail.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  9. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    I'm curious, how many 'investors' do you know who invested 1 million from the startor even later? Do you know how many inquiries do you have a day by investing that amount? So, the short term investors from forex and most of the big stock markets, how are they called? Lot's of dreamers on namepros.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  10. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    Glad to hear you dont intend to go HD spiderweb.

    About real estate.
    Its similar to domains, but much better, and safer.
    For example.

    If you have land, good land, downtown land.
    10 million $ built from ground up can bring in $400.000 / month.
    $2.000.000/year after taxes and various expanses.
    5 years and your $10.000.000 investment is back.

    But here's the real estate glory.
    Your investment is back, you are still making $2.000.000/year net, forever.

    But in addition your property still has value, selling price, minimum of $20.000.000 for standard property based on 400.000/mo.
    20 years net income or $40.000.000 for good locations, up to much more for pristine impossible to get locations like cities main squares.

    And its not done yet.
    Rent and building value will double in 10-20 years time.

    Making bulletproof revenue for your children, and your childrens children.

    Its been around for a while, thats why you see very large (in todays standards) 100-200 year old buildings in good locations. Good locations have been built forever.

    1280px-NY_(1919).jpg
     
  11. xcloud123

    xcloud123 Restricted (Chatroom)

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    i have 10% handreg ,90% bought. yes ,buying aged domains maybe right ,handreg is burning brain
     
  12. DN Playbook

    DN Playbook Established Member

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    @Windoms makes a great analogy with real estate. Buying real estate in populated areas is a safe investment. And if you renovate or develop then the value will go up substantially. Buying into premium, investor grade, domains is similar.

    You can buy land in the Mojave desert and build it into a high end tourist magnet city (i.e. Las Vegas). But if you leave the land as it is, then it is not really an investment. Even still, Vegas was not built just on any piece of desert. Thought went into its location. And as it was being developed, a lot of planning and strategy was involved. Time, money, and strategizing turned this desert land into a thriving market.

    If you want to start at the ground floor, I have some swamp land to sell you.
     
  13. twiki

    twiki Top Contributor VIP Gold Account

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    The only thing I see harder with real estate is your starting capital. (corrected)

    You can't scale this easily if you don't have enough money (as in, say >$1M or whatever your number is). You're also highly dependent on the market swings if you don't have significant capital.

    With domains, you can definitely do that. It's not easy, you have lots of things to get right, however I feel it much easier to achieve, within certain capital constraints. As in, far far less that what even just one decent house costs in developed countries.

    Edit: In the city where I live (Eastern Europe), a normal house costs over 500K (EUR). A decent one, 1-2M. Land is currently tens of EUR per sqm, outside of the city, basically agricultural land where you can't legally build a house. By comparison, my starting capital for domains was less than 50K. Im' just scaling right now to 100K, next level.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  14. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    @AbdulBasit.com has spent 1820 x $400 = $728.000 on domain acquisitions in one year (since June 2020). No hand-regs.

    He's nailed the recipe.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  15. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
  16. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    That's after 15 years of domaining. Also, most of that is invested from the revenue from other sales. You should ask him how many inquiries he is receiving and how many xxx-xxxx acquisitions he has, that will never sell....compare him to the investor you were talking about, who is collecting the profit once a month. Now, you can talk to others who invest xxxxxx amounts in hand regs in a year and tell them that they are not investors.
     
  17. DN Playbook

    DN Playbook Established Member

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    They are playing the numbers game. How many of those domains are dropped at first year renewal?
     
  18. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    over 90%...check out the ROI and compare them
     
  19. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    Knowing how many inquiries he gets per day is useless, I dont understand why you need to know that.
    But there, all quotes from his September 2020 review.
    The goal of acquisitions, should be to have enough domains in terms on quality and quantity in order to provide a nice and stable stream of income. Exactly what I've been describing.
    You don't need him to explain that to you, at this stage (6 years) you should have understood that by yourslelf.
    Look, he ends up his final afternic expirement review by saying the following, if you follow him it's not the first time he's been saying this, he's trying to teach people.

    That's after experience, and after understanding the recipe.

    He was at 1550 domains in november 2017.
    3880 domains in june 2020.
    5700 domains in june 2021.
    So even after 15 years, you can see the trend, after experience.
    He spends 8 hours a day, from what I remember.
    That's why you see these numbers growing.
     
  20. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    Intellect, and capital.
    Just to be clear.

    Hand-regs, other tld's, whether @twiki style or @Recons.Com style whom I believe went from 5000 to 10000 domains in one year, whatever you do, just make sure you are going towards a good direction.
    The best direction being investing money into quality and quantity to provide a stable stream of income.

    Never too late to start consolidating.
     
  21. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    You were saying that as a true investor, when you invest in quality domains, you don't need to be so involved anymore, you just need to wait for your profit, but looks like you could spend even more time compared with hand regs. Secondly, these type of investors are less than a dozen...if half of namepros members will be doing that, guess how many domains will be left to invest in.
     
  22. DN Playbook

    DN Playbook Established Member

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    Invest in quality domains. Monetize them, either through development or custom landers. Parking may be an option, you can try it. Divert profits into new domains and renewals. Know what you are buying. Pumping all your disposable income into domains you don't have any idea whether they will sell or create residual income is a shell game or gambling.
     
  23. boker

    boker Top Contributor VIP

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    So, you know for sure that all your xxx-xxxx acquisitions will sell in the next 10-20 years or even in your life time?
     
  24. DN Playbook

    DN Playbook Established Member

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    This depends on what you based your acquisitions. If they were shots in the dark, hoping for a sale, then I would not know. If they were carefully vetted then I would have confidence that some or many would sell and the rest can be passed on to my progeny as a solid investment. You have to have a significant level of confidence based on reliable information for an acquisition to be an investment. If I register a domain to give it a shot and if it doesn't sell in a year, I will let it drop then I am gambling. This is the hope of many registrars that you will register domains for .99 pennies because of that frame of mind.
     
  25. Windoms

    Windoms Top Contributor VIP

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    You cant grow without putting in work.

    You dont need to be involved as much, once your portfolio is built.
    Acquiring 5.000 domains at $200 each can't be done overnight.
    But once it's done yes, you can sit back and relax.
     

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