Finteza

Circumventing Godaddy Expiry Auctions

Located in Domain Marketplace Reviews started by 411domains, Apr 14, 2018.

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  1. Arca

    Arca Active Member VIP

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    In what way?
     
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  2. 411domains

    411domains Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    It's like they're trying to reinvent the wheel without first understanding how it works.
     
  3. Arca

    Arca Active Member VIP

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    I talked to GoDaddy about this and they confirmed that a backorder placed after the auction will NOT get you the domain before it reaches closeouts.

    I also tried to place a few backorders yesterday to see for myself, both before (but not so early that it showed up as a $10 bid) and after auction end, and GoDaddy told me that all of those backorders failed, even though all those auctions ended with 0 other bidders. So save your money, as I said previously, trying to grab domains post-auction pre-closeouts with a backorder is a waste of time. Their backorders don't work that way. You have to place a backorder so early that it shows up as a $10 bid, and that's no different than placing a $12 bid.

    However, shortly after those auctions ended with no bidders at $12, their price changed to $10 in the reg path. So somebody else won them. And GoDaddy confirmed that somebody else won them, but they told me there was a single bidder (not backorder, live bidder) on each auction. I watched all of them and there were no other bidders. They all ended with 0 bidders. And their minimum bid changed to $10 right after auction end. So one party seems to be exploiting a glitch where they place backorders just at the right moment, too late for them to show up as $10 bids in the system, but just early enough for them to count as $10 bids in their system. They basically manage to get their backorders to work as $10 bids, but in a way that does not extend the auction/show up as a $10 bid in the auction interface. So while the auction ends with 0 bids, the GD back-end system considers the auction to end with a $10 bid. I do wonder how they managed to make this arrangement, and whether or not GoDaddy is assisting them in doing so. As long as they are able to do this they can keep winning auctions that close with zero bids uncontested, and any domains they want won't make it to closeouts.
     
  4. anantj

    anantj Active Member VIP

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    Perhaps @Joe Styler Can chime in on how this is possible and if GD is assisting the bidder in this
     
  5. jideofor

    jideofor Active Member VIP

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    I have been noticing this as well...like @stub said, HugeDomains and its cohorts are behind it.
     
  6. 411domains

    411domains Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Based on the price point in which they're being re-listed at, it's highly unlikely to be any of them.
     
  7. Jasonn

    Jasonn Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    And will godaddy do anything to stop it?
     
  8. Joe Styler

    Joe Styler Aftermarket Product Manager GoDaddy Staff Afternic Staff PRO VIP

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    Good questions. There are multiple things happening here which have been stated in the thread already. There are times where domains are renewed by 3rd party registrars and pulled from the auction and do not make it to closeouts. There is also currently time where placing a backorder on a domain if timed right can grab that name before it hits closeouts. This is always how it has worked and it is by design and pretty well known by people who use the auction a lot as some have pointed out in the thread already. It is something we have always been very forthright on and something I have answered in PMs on here countless times. It is used by people who are savvy API and non API customers do it. HOWEVER this is changing within the next 7 days. So I will give you the run down of how it works today and how it will work.
    The beginning of auctions to today work like this:
    Expired auction day 26-36 of expiration.
    Closeouts (BIN) are day 37-41.
    Backorders can be placed any time before during or after the auctions.
    Placed before or during the Expired auction they show up with a $10 opening bid. Multiple Backorders placed = first person to place it gets the $10 high bid.
    Backorders placed during the Closeout BIN auction do nothing during the auction.
    There are currently (and again this is changing) 4 times where we check for active backorders on the domain that is at auction.
    1. Before the auction - we check to see if there are any and if so we place an opening bid for the first person to place the Backorder. All backorder holders on the domain are alerted that the domain is at auction. Only the 1rst Backorder (BO from now on) gets the bid.
    2. BO placed during the expired auction. Auctions checks and applies BO in pretty close to real time for a $10 bid if there are no bids currently. If there are bids BO is still applied but you are not winning and you wont see that show up publicly.
    3. BO is checked for after the expired auction ends and before the domain goes to Closeout Auctions. This was by design as a way to make certain if someone had a BO on the domain with no other bids they get the domain and someone else does not buy it from them.
    4. Closeout auction ends - BO is checked after the closeout BIN auction is completed on day 41 of expiration. The BO is not checked for during any days of the closeout auction.

    People who use our auction regularly know this and can try to place a backorder on a domain with seconds or so left on the expired auction hoping that the databases and calls etc do not act fast enough to place a bid and extend the auction for five minutes but do act fast enough to have that backorder showing as active when we check for any active BO before moving to closeout. So if you time it just right you can get a backorder in that the system awards the domain name to before moving to closeouts. But you're not the only person doing this so it comes down to a race too early and you tip your hand the system sees it and extends the auction with a bid, too late and you are not the first person to place that backorder or you miss the window and the domain hits closeouts.

    The system was designed like this not to give people a way to do this, this is a unintended consequence of a feature we have always had which is intended to be sure that anyone who wanted the domain and paid for a backorder on it got it. As we discovered more users taking advantage of this lately, even though we have always been very public about how the system worked when asked we felt that it was creating a harder time for people who do not use the auctions so much that they understand all the ins and outs as well as others who do.

    So we decided to make a change. The system will no longer check for BO on step 3 above. This change is happening soon, within the next week. I was planning on announcing it in here then publicly because as I said a lot of people know how it works now and use it that way and it would be good for them to know the change. But since I was asked about it that's the answer. Very soon we will no longer check for a BO before moving the domain from expired auction to closeout auction.

    Do keep in mind though that as soon as it hits closeout anyone who is fast can buy it. Whoever clicks buy first will have the ability to check it out and it will disappear from anyone else seeing it. So yeah a bot can still grab it fast and that is also likely part of what is happening today and that will be unlikely to change in the future. Fastest buyer on BIN wins.
     
  9. Arca

    Arca Active Member VIP

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    I am glad to see GoDaddy do away with the possibility of buying a domain between pre-release auction and closeout auction with a backorder. The possibility of doing so displaces the option to buy a domain as a closeout to the disadvantage of regular bidders.

    Competing for a domain once it hits the closeouts is more straightforward and transparent process for regular users, as opposed to competing with API backorders placed with perfect timing in a confusing system (I personally have never talked to anyone who have managed to figure out the timing of successfully placing a backorder at step 3 as you described above).

    Another thing: Recently domains are taking up to 5-6 hours to reach closeouts. Previously they usually took no more than 5-15 minutes. Is the former an intended change on your end, or are domains still supposed to become available after 5-15 minutes, and the system is just struggling with processing a large number of partner registrar domains?
     
  10. 411domains

    411domains Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    IMPO, backorders should not be allowed after regular auction end and any that come through should be canceled and refunded. That would put an immediate stop to it.

    Does this mean that closeouts conversion times will at least go back to normal, (1-5 minutes) so that humans can actually get a chance to compete?
    As you already know, many have expressed their feelings about this over the past year and the general consensus is 6-8 hours conversion times are unacceptable by any standard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  11. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP

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    This has long been known as a backdoor loophole, big domain investors have been sniping domains that expired with no bids into closeout for years. The poor domainer sat there for hours hitting refresh, and pulling their hair out. I am surprised this is only coming out now? AKA HugeNames and many others.

    It is not so effective anymore as most of the good domains are getting picked off before they hit closeout. There are so many bots with a hit list, and if one of their names gets a last minute bid it jumps in etc. You can literally find dozens of threads here of people thinking that others are crazy because there closeouts are gone, many assuring them they are slow on the draw, that was never the case, you never really stood a chance if you didn't understand the process.

    The common domainer gets screwed anyways, because the bots will still beat you, you just have the advantage of thinking you have a chance. Even Elon Musk admitted on Twitter:

    Yes, excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated.



    12:54 PM - 13 Apr 2018


    Godaddy needs to get rid of the bots, make it a roll up your sleeves, and bid exchange, not an exchange for a few big domain companies to game.

    Now if we can get usernames, oh boy that will blow the doors wide open.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  12. Arca

    Arca Active Member VIP

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    I believe that is what Joe is announcing above. Backorders will only work if they go live as a $10 bid while the pre-release auction is still going on, or if there is a backorder and the domain ends the auction cycle as a $5 closeout with no bids (after which the backorder would get it). Backorders will no longer work after the expired auction ends and before the domain goes to closeouts, and also not during closeouts.
     
  13. CrocodileDundee

    CrocodileDundee Active Member VIP

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    If the domains are going to take 5 - 6 hours to hit the closeouts I actually would prefer the chance to grab them using the backorder trick.
     
  14. 411domains

    411domains Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Yes, but in the meantime, it would be nice if all backorders coming in after regular auction end were canceled and refunded. Everything has a timestamp on it. Shouldn't be too hard to track down.

    The good news is we at least have a timeframe for this fix. Next up, we need closeout conversion times back to normal so that we humans actually have a chance at competing again.
     
  15. Joe Styler

    Joe Styler Aftermarket Product Manager GoDaddy Staff Afternic Staff PRO VIP

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    that is correct
     
  16. hwgriffi

    hwgriffi Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Congratulations 411Domains!!!!!

    You just ruined this for pretty much everyone who knew this was going on (including myself). I've snatched so many domains in the void between closeout and end of auction it was silly.

    There was a trick to it though.

    Get your backorder lined up with at least 7 minutes remaining, any sooner and the system would not allow you to win the domain when the auction ends. Get to the last step of the BO but don't hit the button quite yet. Wait until exactly 5 seconds before the auction ends, then place your backorder. Bam, auction closed and you have the winning 'bid'.

    Instead of just doing the research for yourself and figuring it out you had to come to forum and cry about it.

    You my friend are the worst. In my opinion.

    Everyone that was able to do this will now take joy that you just completely crapped on a perfectly good advantage.

    Thumbs down, bad thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  17. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP

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    How long did you think it was going to last, many times people questioned it, but everyone kind of kept quiet about it. I agree it does suck, because it was the only advantage the human bidder had, which will now be gone.

    I agree 411 domains would have been just better to keep his mouth shut, and bid away, these kind of guys just don't know when to quit.

    Same thing happend when that guy talked about the escrow loophole where you could enter an email, and get to the final confirmation page, and see who you were dealing with.

    Regardless what is done is done, and the bots will snipe any closeout that does fall, and if you bid in the last 5 minutes, the bots will just bid you up about $50-$100, as well push the close time back, and put the domain on everyone's radar, so either way lose lose.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  18. hwgriffi

    hwgriffi Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    jaja I don't know, forever! I was doing it for well over a year, and some others longer for sure.

    I only caught on when the closeout system didn't seem to be behaving 'normally', so I tested BO's. I couldn't get it to work, and it took me about 8 tries before I cracked the process.

    It was nice while it lasted, GD has to make their money after all.

    You are being right 100% @wwwweb !
    It was rather kind that they allowed it at all.

    Still, thumbs down to @411domains know your business.
     
  19. hwgriffi

    hwgriffi Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    So many loose lips.

    So many sunken ships.

    I watch as people post these threads like OP and air out loopholes that most domainers have used for decades.

    When I come up wth an idea and google it, if I can't find the answer online I know I'm onto something good.
    Others should learn this lesson. Too many with low IQ, very sad, very bad.
     
  20. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP

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    It wasn't that they allowed it, just how the platform was built, and if someone wanted a domain by all means you have every chance to bid when it is open. Once it closes, it was like nobody wanted it, so there was really no reason to change it as the domain had been passed up.

    411 domains hasn't really said much for 8 years, other than a gripe about sedo last year, not sure what his motive was, but he kind of screwed all the human bidders that had a single edge against the bots. He is actually losing, than gaining from the new action, but hopefully he is happy.

    The auction scene has kind of gotten crazy, as everyone is outbidding everyone else, end users have more options than ever. If you are using the premium channel, there are a hundreds of $9.99 or less alt reg fee options to your name right under your sale price. It is better to wait on the sidelines as there is no way this inventory flies off the shelves overnight, let these buyers sit on these names for years, and get lowball offers from end users.
     
  21. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP

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    I agree these people are more happy to get a visitor to their blog by exposing such steps, than figure out when they have a good thing, and when it's gone, it's gone. It was not like this was a universal coupon code for 99% off. It was a way to beat a bot, to a domain that went unbid, or unwanted, you still had to pay for it, albeit $1 less than the minimum opening bid price, but fair game.
     
  22. MapleDots

    MapleDots Domain Properties 2010 - 2018 VIP

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    @hwgriffi you must be pretty peeved if it got you to post.

    Wow.... like 30 posts in 11 years and now 2-3 in a row :xf.laugh:

    I'm glad I'm not on your hit list :punch:

    :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
     
  23. hwgriffi

    hwgriffi Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    100% agree. This was the only way I was picking up domains (beating the bots as you said) unless it was some thing like a niche I really believed in.

    Now, just going to sit it out and let the robots and newcomers fight for crypto domains registered last year.
     
  24. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP

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    There is a lot of crypto crap registered, if you actually look at most of the ico, and coins they raise millions of dollars, and still choose to go with the reg fee option. Most crypto domain investors are holding a lot of .org's, and they are going to end up dropping those. Bitcoin is struggling to get over $8K, and another correction or two is going to hinder some of that new blood, but going forward the better names will find homes for sure, but the subpar stuff as always will fall by the wayside once we go more mainstream.
     
  25. hwgriffi

    hwgriffi Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Verified anger level 4000%! jajaja

    It is as they say "all good". Seen these things happen often.

    Just happens more often in past 4-5 months. So many "hey have you noticed" threads sinking tricks people usually keep quiet about.

    Maybe domaining too much saturated. Very wet industry.
     

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