Bidding on your own names at NameJet...?

[webquest]

Once in awhile I see people bidding on their own domains at NJ. I would think it would be frowned upon.

Today's seems more obvious than normal. Or am I missing something here?

Airlinejobs.com owned by Andy Booth at Booth.com and high bidder is BQDNcom (James Booth).

3 bids down we see Boothcom as a bidder.

Same thing with MovieZone.com. Owned by Andy Booth in which he currently appears to be the high bidder.

High Bid: $2,475 USD by boothcom

They actually won their own domain airplanesforsale.com. Im guessing it didnt get as high as they wanted so needed to protect it.

Bidder Amount Date
bqdncom $2,001 7/17/2017 12:23 PM
boothcom $1,950 7/17/2017 12:23 PM

 

[dannyddn1]

Can you take a screenshot of the MotorTech NJ auction so we can analyze bidding patterns? (If you don't want your username public - you can red it or out PM it to me and I'll red it out.)

I was using this strategy with a not so popular domain name. Motortech seemed legit, I just thought the Guest user handle was strange, or clever. I tried to add an image here but it wont allow me to unless I upgrade my account..

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Motortech seemed legit, I just thought the Guest user handle was strange, or clever

It's definitely a strong name. I think if we were all confident in the auction house, this domain could have fetched far more. Definitely can to an end user at least!!

 

[offthehandle]

I was using this strategy with a not so popular domain name. Motortech seemed legit, I just thought the Guest user handle was strange, or clever. I tried to add an image here but it wont allow me to unless I upgrade my account..

Upgrade to business account.

I have had this happen over and over before, elsewhere too, its a strategy to wear you down. It isn't necessarily shill bidding. Set a reserve in your mind. The people you mention are very aggressive bidders, and if you want to win your margins will be reduced. Its a personal choice you make what you are willing to pay.

Know that the platform is in this condition, and bid accordingly. Thats the only recourse if you want the name.

I noticed that @Domain Shane DSAD wrote on his blog the day before yesterday that same thing. He is experienced and knows the platform.

https://dsad.com/domain-shanes-daily-list-domains-auction-monday-july-24th/

"Because you should have the knowledge and expertise to decide on your own whether the current price is a good buy. If you don’t feel comfortable with a price don’t bid. Regardless if the bid is real or fake...."

However, with that being said anybody who truly believes online websites that have databases of data and estimator bots and you believe past sales data equals current value- Good luck. Like stocks, daily changes in markets can happen. You need to dig in and learn pricing at wholesale level. If you are new, you need to study everything, not just the headlines of crazy high priced sales.

If you read my previous comments way earlier in the thread I said the same basic thing, though I have pointed out a lot more. Auctions, all suffer from the same issues everywhere real or live. Be an informed buyer.

http://domainnamewire.com/2017/07/25/shills-bidding-scandals/
@Slanted wrote an article summarizing many things, read it. I learned more too. The history is documented.

 

[Recons.Com]

"Because you should have the knowledge and expertise to decide on your own whether the current price is a good buy. If you don’t feel comfortable with a price don’t bid. Regardless if the bid is real or fake...."

I would completely disagree with @Domain Shane opinion here, although I find myself agreeing with him on many other things...

Investors work on certain % margin for the business to make sense. While they might continue to work close to this margin, no one likes to be squeezed to that.

If your wholesale cost increases and you are forced to pay near your max for most names by shill bidders and auction platforms with zero integrity, it becomes really hard to be in this business.

 

[Domain Shane]

Ever think they could come over here and bid up auction over here?

Yeah. You could make almost

I would completely disagree with @Domain Shane opinion here, although I find myself agreeing with him on many other things...

Investors work on certain % margin for the business to make sense. While they might continue to work close to this margin, no one likes to be squeezed to that.

If your wholesale cost increases and you are forced to pay near your max for most names by shill bidders and auction platforms with zero integrity, it becomes really hard to be in this business.

I don't disagree with you on that. My point is that real bidder or shill bidder you should know what you would like to pay for a domain going in. That was my only point. Nobody HAS to have a name. At some point you have to say "the wholesale is getting too close to the end user price so I need to find another name" But we both agree that having a shill bidder knock you off a name by raising the price pisses us off. Its why I was so mad. I felt I could have had the name cheaper without that bidder being present

 

[Recons.Com]

Yeah. You could make almost


I don't disagree with you on that. My point is that real bidder or shill bidder you should know what you would like to pay for a domain going in. That was my only point. Nobody HAS to have a name. At some point you have to say "the wholesale is getting too close to the end user price so I need to find another name" But we both agree that having a shill bidder knock you off a name by raising the price pisses us off. Its why I was so mad. I felt I could have had the name cheaper without that bidder being present

Absolutely. There are names that I'd have bought at xxxx and I paid low-mid xxx for, but even with that overall this business is marginally profitable for most even done right. End user sales have a ceiling and raising wholesale artificially hurts all of us, except shill bidders and platforms allowing such behavior to flourish.

Hence my decision to boycott NJ completely and not even check what is listed there.

Their half ass measures did not convince me at all. We still don't know who was banned and they still do poor job of verifying accounts, management did not suffer any consequences etc.

 

[offthehandle]

We still don't know who was banned and they still do poor job of verifying accounts, management did not suffer any consequences etc.

Well the only part that we can figure out is who was banned. Website security and consequences are their problem. As buyers, though the knowledge of who the banned were- is important for future avoidance.

Since NJ has abandoned this thread, where are NP members who are in-the-know? Those who are there bidding now? I see handles there that match here. Anybody?

Did anybody check the current 3rd party sellers list versus "tribal knowledge" of the old sellers previous to this last press release? I have not followed these 3rd party pages as I do the expired ones, but did notice that as someone mentioned before they list 3rd party sellers auctions just like expired auctions- with a "pre-release" date. I checked whois to verify several, and they are not being "released" like some expired domain is where that same term is used.

 

[campout]

But we both agree that having a shill bidder knock you off a name by raising the price pisses us off.

Yup and even if he doesn't knock you off but only knocks you up to a price that you're still willing to pay for the name (but is still higher than you would've gotten it without the shill) that is obviously not okay. And I think everyone who's not involved in these scams would agree with that.

It's not okay for a shill to carve off any of that excess return you might've earned on a name, just because hurr durr you're still willing to pay the price you paid.

 

[Want2learn]

I'm about to start selling in NJ. Well I'll have some names listed. The selling will depend on buyers buying

 

[AuctionBio]

First off, you are absolutely correct that since it is against Namejet TOS then the simple answer is that bidding on your own domain is wrong. But again, I'm not debating that. What I'm trying to debate is whether or not this should be changed.

You are NOT deceiving anyone in an open auction with no reserve by bidding on your own name. Nobody is being fooled. The owner is bidding for a domain no different and with equal chance like everyone else. This is a fact. It is not debatable. If he wins he buys the domain for (ex) $10,000. If he loses someone else buys the domain for $10,000. If the losing party thought the domain was worth more they would have placed another bid. That is the beauty of free market capitalism and market pricing.

When Tucows buys back their own stock from the market they are essentially doing the exact same thing. They have more information than the average investor in the market. They feel good about the future prospects of the business relative to the current share price and so they buy back shares for the benefit of existing shareholders. If they did NOT feel good about the future relative to the current share price than they would not buy those shares.

If I put xyz.com in auction on Namejet with NO RESERVE and the auction is about to close at $20,000 but I think this domain has a good chance of selling someday for $100,000 then why shouldn't I be able to buy it back for more than the current bid? If the high bidder also thinks it is worth more than they will outbid me (again). And again and again. At the end one party values the asset higher than the others and they win the auction and pay the price.

Who got fooled?

This all you said is illogical.
When you have committed, what ever price you will get for your domain, you will going to sell it. Than why on earth is other thinking of bidding on your own domains.
and on other side of the world, if you really want your domains to not sell below your reserve, just put it on reserve or just market and hunt for end users.
whatever logic you are coming with or will come with would be total wrong.
That is how it should be, not as you think or you do.

 

[AuctionBio]

Yeah. You could make almost


I don't disagree with you on that. My point is that real bidder or shill bidder you should know what you would like to pay for a domain going in. That was my only point. Nobody HAS to have a name. At some point you have to say "the wholesale is getting too close to the end user price so I need to find another name" But we both agree that having a shill bidder knock you off a name by raising the price pisses us off. Its why I was so mad. I felt I could have had the name cheaper without that bidder being present

100% right,
Lets for instance, I agree and if I am experienced domainer i will pull myself out if I see the price is going high than its resale price. Think of new domainers who may be a victim of these kind of traps and loose money, means you are telling a newbie that its a world of cheating.
If there is a system to put the domain on reserve, than why not to use that option, why to play unethical and wrong games thn.
Domainers should not hypnotize their minds to think that this is right thing to do, but wrong minded people will keep on doing wrong and will keep on justifying that on every point and will be knocked out one day and thn try to find other platform to do the same.

 

[Templr]

One word...Regulation.

 

[rpanella]

In following the NameJet auctions this week, I noticed that the overall volume of auctions with bids is down around half from what it was last week.

Digging into it a little, I noticed that all 5 featured auction pages that @Michael found which appeared to be Oliver's (quoted below) no longer exist.

Also, I randomly checked several short domain auctions ending today and don't see the user hkdn participating in any of them at the moment.

I'm curious if NameJet plans to followup at some point with more details of their investigation, including what punishments or bans were actually handed out.

I did a little digging myself into the featured seller account mentioned initially. These featured pages seem to all be Oliver Hoger's:

http://www.namejet.com/featuredauctions/6ifd5lvs
http://www.namejet.com/featuredauctions/8fyd9zfl
http://www.namejet.com/featuredauctions/9rev0pcj

Unfortunately I found two more featured auction pages that appear to be Oliver:

http://www.namejet.com/featuredauctions/2cpd2hzh
http://www.namejet.com/featuredauctions/7syi4nah

 

[Marshall]

Has NameJet showed up yet?

 

[904.com]

In following the NameJet auctions this week, I noticed that the overall volume of auctions with bids is down around half from what it was last week.

Digging into it a little, I noticed that all 5 featured auction pages that @Michael found which appeared to be Oliver's (quoted below) no longer exist.

Also, I randomly checked several short domain auctions ending today and don't see the user hkdn participating in any of them at the moment.

I'm curious if NameJet plans to followup at some point with more details of their investigation, including what punishments or bans were actually handed out.

Down 1/2? Wow. From the NJ announcement on Friday didn't seem like many auctions would be affected. My advice to the domain community is to oppose algorithmic bidding on domain names. Im against it in stocks, too, but stocks have millions or billions of shares outstanding to trade. Domains are all unique and I would venture to say it is absolutely impossible to peg a valuation on an individual domain that is universally accepted by all market participants.

 

[offthehandle]

One word...Regulation.

If they are not an auctioneer like the terms state and they don't have an auctioneers license, how does that apply? Lol. There are standard industry practices that are followed and peer reviewed. Ask @904.com he is an accountant, and they all are looking at each other and self policing. Did you read the code of ethics I posted above? Most professional industries and trade associations while all struggle and have political issues among members, are formed specifically to protect the entire industry vertical segment from bad apples causing negative PR. I have reviewed lot's of information these past few days and it seems that this not at all unique elsewhere with online auctions. I was looking today at suspicious bids on another platform, though I have no evidence.

 

[904.com]

If they are not an auctioneer like the terms state and they don't have an auctioneers license, how does that apply? Lol. There are standard industry practices that are followed and peer reviewed. Ask @904.com he is an accountant, and they all are looking at each other and self policing. Did you read the code of ethics I posted above? Most professional industries and trade associations while all struggle and have political issues among members, are formed specifically to protect the entire industry vertical segment from bad apples causing negative PR. I have reviewed lot's of information these past few days and it seems that this not at all unique elsewhere with online auctions. I was looking today at suspicious bids on another platform, though I have no evidence.

My personal opinion is that this is a small, unregulated market so there has not been enough attention put into safeguarding investors. Not sure if you guys noticed but yesterday the SEC just came out and said that blockchain based coins will now be treated like securities and regulated as such. I don't think the SEC should regulate domains, just giving an example of an unregulated industry that grew large enough to attract SEC attention.

As far as the auctioneer vs non auctioneer status I am very ignorant of any laws or oversight related to this occupation. I do strongly believe that the companies in auction space that are publicly held are accountable for installing internal controls to safeguard investors by the SEC. But ultimately if the external auditor lets it slide the company is almost certainly not going to act.

I can't speculate on NameJet's involvement or actions. I have absolutely no facts to promulgate a professional opinion. I can only state it appears that internal controls are very lax and that external auditors do not appear to be doing enough to safeguard innocent domain investors and shareholders.

If there is a self policing policy in place it is obviously not working or I wouldn't be piping up.

 

[offthehandle]

Indeed a small market. SEC in this would be way overkill, and not even worth mentioning. $4-5 million in revenue is really peanuts. Bitcoin is an entirely different animal. The external auditors if from my experience I understand are only interested in SEC 10K truth, etc. I am not an auditor, but would be surprised if those guys even looked at such puny details of anything to do with the auction side of the business or even specific auctions.

 

[904.com]

Indeed a small market. SEC in this would be way overkill, and not even worth mentioning. $4-5 million in revenue is really peanuts. Bitcoin is an entirely different animal. The external auditors if from my experience I understand are only interested in SEC 10K truth, etc. I am not an auditor, but would be surprised if those guys even looked at such puny details of anything to do with the auction side of the business or even specific auctions.

External auditors should audit everything, even petty accounts. You might take smaller sample sizes or allot less resources but you can't ignore internal control weaknesses regardless of the materiality of the revenue involved.

 

[offthehandle]

Really? In my experience these "minor" details in the 3 small companies I have worked for in my youth were owned by public holding companies. When the auditors came in, they were frankly clueless about operations, rarely did anything to review internal non-accounting processes and just concentrated on making sure everything of accounts receivables, payables, inventory, G&A, and income statements and EBITA, etc. all are correct. They had no idea about operational processes nor did they seem to care. The company always lost money too, lol. The only profitable year was when "they" (meaning management and accounting, etc.) somehow were pressured by the public holding company to go out and sell the real estate they owned for years! That made us profitable! Then somehow were able to bury that sale into the inflating the annual gross revenue, lol. Figure that one out.

 

[904.com]

Really? In my experience these "minor" details in the 3 small companies I have worked for in my youth were owned by public holding companies. When the auditors came in, they were frankly clueless about operations, rarely did anything to review internal non-accounting processes and just concentrated on making sure everything of accounts receivables, payables, inventory, G&A, and income statements and EBITA, etc. all are correct. They had no idea about operational processes nor did they seem to care. The company always lost money too, lol. The only profitable year was when "they" (meaning management and accounting, etc.) somehow were pressured by the public holding company to go out and sell the real estate they owned for years! That made us profitable! Then somehow were able to bury that sale into the inflating the annual gross revenue, lol. Figure that one out.

"Should" not "do". Big 4 accounting firms in this day and age mainly pander to company management. The beancounters do not make enough money to stand up to the CEO making 8 figures a year.

For many years Dell computer booked under the table payments/bribes from Intel (to not carry AMD chips) as operating revenues. To the tune of billions of dollars. Nobody went to jail.

I am embarrassed of my former profession. That's why I worked as a Gov State Auditor for pennies on the dollar instead of working for Big 4 or private corp.

 

[Beezy]

Did a quick follow up vid just to cover the press release.

Sorry, I'm at least a day behind on my computer build but more produced videos coming next week, hopefully!

 

[offthehandle]

Big 4 accounting firms in this day and age mainly pander to company management.
For many years Dell computer booked under the table payments/bribes from Intel (to not carry AMD chips) as operating revenues.

Wow. Huge. Well at least they paid taxes on those "payments".. lol. Seems to me that some cash must be floated. What has always gotten me is the US has this sanitary posture and stance they impose on other countries, yet never look in the mirror. Like the OECD, that club. I am off the track of this thread. sorry.

 

[offthehandle]

I have a general question regarding the chinese NNNNN domains. I was reviewing sales data from eName versus NJ, GD, DC and "generally speaking" the sales numbers appear on NJ and US venues are much higher. Anybody else notice this? More competitive chinese buyers bidding outside of china?

 

[offthehandle]

@Grilled any updates? The thread has been silent. But I see there lurkers.