Bidding on your own names at NameJet...?

[webquest]

Once in awhile I see people bidding on their own domains at NJ. I would think it would be frowned upon.

Today's seems more obvious than normal. Or am I missing something here?

Airlinejobs.com owned by Andy Booth at Booth.com and high bidder is BQDNcom (James Booth).

3 bids down we see Boothcom as a bidder.

Same thing with MovieZone.com. Owned by Andy Booth in which he currently appears to be the high bidder.

High Bid: $2,475 USD by boothcom

They actually won their own domain airplanesforsale.com. Im guessing it didnt get as high as they wanted so needed to protect it.

Bidder Amount Date
bqdncom $2,001 7/17/2017 12:23 PM
boothcom $1,950 7/17/2017 12:23 PM

 

[Chris Hydrick]

You're right. If Namepros won't let me have multiple accounts from the same IP

Pretty sure you can have multiple accounts. Maybe one personal and the other business?

The difference is NamePros enforces bidding domains with multiple accounts. The public sellers history allows for the community to police the marketplace and notify staff of their concerns so an investigation may take place.

 

[Jim Holleran]

Sorry I don't agree. Some of you guys are downright petty, close-minded, and mentally limited. Other than that, you guys are great. I understand that these types of events blow up like this event every three months. Unbelievable and unacceptable! Sincerely hope some of you look yourselves in the mirror and improve yourselves in the future. Sorry to be blunt but too many of you need it.

Actually this community of Namepros is our best hope, you should be thankful for it. Namepros community is our best hope on addressing these things. Just got to determine the facts versus people getting falsely accused. I finally feel after all these years, that Namepros community is standing up in the masses and basically is not going to let this crap get sweep under the rug any longer.

 

[tldboss]

So what is the latest on things? I will give Namejet the benefit of the doubt when people make mistakes only if they address them, fix them, and make people whole. Maybe this has been answered, but I been out of the loop, so where do things stand?

Below is update from NJ (Wednesday 19th)

In an effort to keep everyone current as to where we stand on this matter, I wanted to share the following update. There have been some inaccuracies and misconceptions that have been brought forth by such a spirited discussion. And it would be a challenge to respond to all of them - therefore, I want to bring the discussion back to the heart of the matter.

As stated earlier, we take the issue of shill bidding on NameJet very seriously and we are conducting a thorough investigation, keeping in mind that the integrity of our platform is of utmost importance to us. As I have said repeatedly, we do not condone shill bidding of any kind. We would never encourage, promote or otherwise be involved in any such thing and our position is clear – it is never allowed on NameJet!

In our current investigation certain auction activity has come to light that we deem questionable and a possible violation of our terms. This kind of activity is not acceptable to us and we are taking steps to deal with it. We have suspended several accounts while working through the information we have available.

I thank everyone for their patience as we work through these issues. Our goal is to best serve our customers and we are working hard to that effect.

-Jonathan

I do not believe they gave any other update on NP after that, however there is a press release on their site

http://www.namejet.com/Pages/press-releases/default.aspx

 

[Arca]

So now I have 3 accounts at Namejet. My original account and two more I just opened. The second and third account are totally fake with fake names and info and each was opened with different email addresses and a visa gift card as the credit card info and google phone numbers.

I placed multiple bids on the same names from all 3 accounts.

I am ready to shill bid if anyone needs my services. I will be shilling on my own auctions when needed. I am obviously kidding.

I did this to see how easy it is to shill bid if I really wanted to. How the f*ck in the year 2017 am I able to have 3 accounts at a supposedly secure auction house all from the same exact IP?

What a joke, and they wonder why people don't trust their company. They can't even secure the most basic entry point for people to easily shill.

@Rick Schwartz should tweet that and @equity78 should write a story about what a joke it is.

The users who participated in shill bidding are major buyers and sellers, working closely with NJ and bringing in a lot of $$$. NJ therefore had reasons to look the other way and provide second chances to these users. Case in point: Oliver Hoger and TLDpros got caught using additional bid handles but were allowed to continue selling regardless - small time sellers would have been banned if caught doing the same.

They may come down a lot harder on your 3 accounts than they did on these volume sellers accounts.

 

[Jim Holleran]

For the rest of you, next time if possible, go out of your way to support those who are being unfairly treated. But all I heard were crickets all around. No matter how successful and high up they are, they are still human, believe me. Therefore in the future when something like this happens, it ends quickly. Or better yet, it is prevented altogether. ☮

Most of the world hates us domainers already, and many domainers are jealous of other people's success within the domain industry. And many make up BS to try to bring other's down, haters will always hate. That is why most successful domainers do NDA now on big sales.

However, I think the community is finally sick of all the fraud and BS going on, and nothing get's addressed. Many people are afraid to speak up, because of the "old boys network", "sponsors from there blogs, etc. The people who speak up with facts should be applauded. Personally if I never sell 1 more domain in my life, I am still ok, but just like people who mentor me, guided me, when I came in the late 90's in this industry, I feel it's right to call out those who are behind these fraud schemes to help protect noobies from getting burned.

Nobody is perfect, we all made mistakes, but when the same stuff that happens over and over and over again, keeps happening, enough is enough.

 

[Hemanttilotia]

Most of the world hates us domainers already, and many domainers are jealous of other people's success within the domain industry. And many make up BS to try to bring other's down, haters will always hate. That is why most successful domainers do NDA now on big sales.

However, I think the community is finally sick of all the fraud and BS going on, and nothing get's addressed. Many people are afraid to speak up, because of the "old boys network", "sponsors from there blogs, etc. The people who speak up with facts should be applauded. Personally if I never sell 1 more domain in my life, I am still ok, but just like people who mentor me, guided me, when I came in the late 90's in this industry, I feel it's right to call out those who are behind these fraud schemes to help protect noobies from getting burned.

Nobody is perfect, we all made mistakes, but when the same stuff that happens over and over and over again, keeps happening, enough is enough.

How do you call out those behind this stuff? As of today, everyone has come clean, NameJet still got those sellers and as someone just did, we can make shill accounts, still fairly easy.

 

[Jim Holleran]

How do you call out those behind this stuff? As of today, everyone has come clean, NameJet still got those sellers and as someone just did, we can make shill accounts, still fairly easy.

If Namejet won't address it, than we ban doing business with Namejet both as a buyer and a seller.

 

[DNWon]

I am curious to know, how many of the Booth Brothers or @MediaOptions auctions were bid up to just under the reserve price by HKDN? Can @Michael or @Grilled provide us some statistics on this please?
Thank You!

 

[tonyk2000]

The users who participated in shill bidding are major buyers and sellers, working closely with NJ and bringing in a lot of $$$. NJ therefore had reasons to look the other way and provide second chances to these users.

So now I have 3 accounts at Namejet. My original account and two more I just opened... I am obviously kidding.

@hookbox - if your experiment is confirmed somehow (which is unlikely, but still...) then you'd better contact NJ and ask them to block 2 extra accounts. Or they will block all 3 themselves.

And, their"favourite" customers - like those mentioned by Arca - must be reading this now and laughing

 

[offthehandle]

This is a complex problem.
The ease at which multiple accounts can be created is an issue, the solution perhaps is to require all bidders to be verified even for low dollar auctions. And once a domain is sold, the whois information is tracked and transparent- which will help with restoring honesty. Even if a person buys something personally versus for their company- in either case it is transparent which one bought it.

There is a very legitimate reason too in some cases as @Grilled pointed out. Maybe it is done for tax reasons, some domains are owned personally and lower value, while some are high value ones are owned with a separate holding company (for protection).

I don't believe IP tracking has any bearing on policing this.
And a solution to this problem is not simple for Namejet.
Here is why:

In order to become a verified bidder- you need to fill out and send in this form.
http://www. namejet.com/Documents / NameJetAuthForm.pdf

However, that being said there is nothing to prevent several people collaborating (unrelated or related) sending in these forms separately and "representing the same true buyer" using their own credit cards or different bank accounts etc. That's the problem part and same for all other auction houses or platforms. It's very difficult to police. Hypothetically, say, they get (15) forms staggered say months apart, to say to (15) individuals they have no correlation to each transaction, and over a period of time say 15 different accounts are created. Worse yet- again hypothetically- 15 bot's approved. It's totally possible, and difficult to piece together and accuse all part of a "group".

Even if with resources used to "fingerprinting" your computer(s) like from what I have read before that Facebook does to figure out you and follow you around (Very sophisticated btw), it still isn't fool proof. Look at all the fake news accounts they never detected until it became apparent- a multi billion dollar company.

And the recent comments made of "group buying" in those foreign accounts, that's another wild card, and what if they have multiple accounts.

With or without face to face interaction at an auction, the problems are difficult to fix.

I am hopeful that they address this issue as none of us want anything but the best outcome here to restore the system to one of integrity.

Not this:

 

[Scott615]

OK, so I was mistaken. It was an auction I won at Flippa not NameJet from James Booth.
I just checked it out and here are the results of the last day of the auction. As you can see, Bidder 2 who placed a majority of the bids during the auction has been "temporarily suspended from Flippa for possibly violating the terms and conditions."

You all can make your own assumptions. I'm not casting dispersions here, just adding to the thread.

I won the auction at $530. Maybe it's just a coincendence ?!?! Or is it that Flippa is on to this ruse?
Live and learn.

(Actually not allowed to post images yet as a new member, so pasting auction results below)

• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $530
  2 months ago
  Highest Bid
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $525
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $475
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $470
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $461
  2 months ago
  
• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $456
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $381
  2 months ago
  
• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $376
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $306
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $301
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $265
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $260
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $255
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $250
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $204
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $199
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $130
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $125
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $56
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $51
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 6 ( NEW )
  $50
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $21
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 6 ( NEW )
  $16
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $11
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 7 ( – | $17 )
  $6
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $1

 

[hookbox]

This is a complex problem.
The ease at which multiple accounts can be created is an issue, the solution perhaps is to require all bidders to be verified even for low dollar auctions. And once a domain is sold, the whois information is tracked and transparent- which will help with restoring honesty. Even if a person buys something personally versus for their company- in either case it is transparent which one bought it.

There is a very legitimate reason too in some cases as @Grilled pointed out. Maybe it is done for tax reasons, some domains are owned personally and lower value, while some are high value ones are owned with a separate holding company (for protection).

I don't believe IP tracking has any bearing on policing this.
And a solution to this problem is not simple for Namejet.
Here is why:

In order to become a verified bidder- you need to fill out and send in this form.
http://www. namejet.com/Documents / NameJetAuthForm.pdf

However, that being said there is nothing to prevent several people collaborating (unrelated or related) sending in these forms separately and "representing the same true buyer" using their own credit cards or different bank accounts etc. That's the problem part and same for all other auction houses or platforms. It's very difficult to police. Hypothetically, say, they get (15) forms staggered say months apart, to say to (15) individuals they have no correlation to each transaction, and over a period of time say 15 different accounts are created. Worse yet- again hypothetically- 15 bot's approved. It's totally possible, and difficult to piece together and accuse all part of a "group".

Even if with resources used to "fingerprinting" your computer(s) like from what I have read before that Facebook does to figure out you and follow you around (Very sophisticated btw), it still isn't fool proof. Look at all the fake news accounts they never detected until it became apparent- a multi billion dollar company.

And the recent comments made of "group buying" in those foreign accounts, that's another wild card, and what if they have multiple accounts.

With or without face to face interaction at an auction, the problems are difficult to fix.

I am hopeful that they address this issue as none of us want anything but the best outcome here to restore the system to one of integrity.

Not this:

The verified bidder form is a joke also. Anyone can manipulate that too.

 

[Want2learn]

Shill Bidding Update And Platform Improvements
Friday, July 21, 2017
Jacksonville, FL

Our thanks to members of the domain community that have brought to light concerns regarding suspect bidding activity on our platform. NameJet has never promoted, encouraged, or condoned shill bidding on our platform and we are taking steps to ensure that our customers are properly protected at all times.

As to the current issues, we have confirmed that there was suspicious activity relating to certain names being sold on NameJet, and have taken actions to ensure that the integrity of the platform is maintained. We determined that the initially identified domains were owned by a bidder, which is a clear violation of our terms, and as such we have suspended the related accounts. We continue to investigate the additional allegations raised and will take further steps as needed.

Going forward, we want to assure everyone that we maintain a zero-tolerance policy on shill bidding. In order to improve buyer and seller protections specifically directed at shill-bidding activity, we have done the following:

1. We have made modifications to our user account system to prohibit the ability of a seller to bid on a name they have listed.

2. We are suspending the ‘Next Bid Wins’ practice. For those unaware, sellers may set their own reserves and may lower their reserve during a live auction provided the new reserve is not at or below the current high bid. Sellers may often lower the reserve to allow the next incremental bid to meet the reserve. We recognize this has created an unintended perception of suspicious activity, and therefore, we will suspend this practice until further notice.

3. We are working on improved bid-tracking reporting that will help identify unusual bidding and buying patterns so that we can more quickly identify instances of shill bidding and take the necessary actions.

4. We will be updating our Terms of Service with additional rules regarding shill bidding, to clearly express what activity is prohibited and the penalties involved with violation of such terms.

5. We will be enhancing our seller onboarding process to ensure that all sellers affirm that they have a clear understating of the rules and policies for selling domains on NameJet.

6. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we have created [[email protected]] as a means for people to report suspicious activity on our platform. While the previously-mentioned changes will be beneficial, nothing replaces the power of community oversight.

The integrity of our platform is critical to us and we want to make sure we maintain the trust of our customers and the community at large.

 

[ResoluteDomains]

So now I have 3 accounts at Namejet. My original account and two more I just opened. The second and third account are totally fake with fake names and info and each was opened with different email addresses and a visa gift card as the credit card info and google phone numbers.

I placed multiple bids on the same names from all 3 accounts.

I am ready to shill bid if anyone needs my services. I will be shilling on my own auctions when needed. I am obviously kidding.

I did this to see how easy it is to shill bid if I really wanted to. How the f*ck in the year 2017 am I able to have 3 accounts at a supposedly secure auction house all from the same exact IP?

What a joke, and they wonder why people don't trust their company. They can't even secure the most basic entry point for people to easily shill.

@Rick Schwartz should tweet that and @equity78 should write a story about what a joke it is.

I thought they required a drivers license or some official photo id in order to have an account that is able to bid on names?

Update - nevermind, I just saw that you addressed that.

Yes, this is a pathetic and sad situation. Zero trust.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

OK, so I was mistaken. It was an auction I won at Flippa not NameJet from James Booth.
I just checked it out and here are the results of the last day of the auction. As you can see, Bidder 2 who placed a majority of the bids during the auction has been "temporarily suspended from Flippa for possibly violating the terms and conditions."

You all can make your own assumptions. I'm not casting dispersions here, just adding to the thread.

I won the auction at $530. Maybe it's just a coincendence ?!?! Or is it that Flippa is on to this ruse?
Live and learn.

(Actually not allowed to post images yet as a new member, so pasting auction results below)

• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $530
  2 months ago
  Highest Bid
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $525
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $475
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $470
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $461
  2 months ago
  
• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $456
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $381
  2 months ago
  
• tnscott ( 100% | $784 )
  $376
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $306
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $301
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $265
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $260
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $255
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 3 ( – | $7K )
  $250
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $204
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $199
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $130
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 4 ( NEW )
  $125
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 2 ( SUSPENDED )
  $56
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $51
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 6 ( NEW )
  $50
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $21
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 6 ( NEW )
  $16
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $11
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 7 ( – | $17 )
  $6
  2 months ago
  
• Bidder 5 ( 100% | $5.21K )
  $1

Domain blacked out because OP hadn't posted it in their comment.Giving @FlippaDomains a chance to respond by tagging them.

@Scott615 - your wining bid came in at: 7 JUNE 2017 13:18:18 UTC

Bidder 2 bid at: 7 JUNE 2017 13:18:18 UTC

Being that the times match, and looking at the bid log. Here's what I deduct:

Bidder 3 had bid $470 > So suspended bidder 2 bid $475 with a max bid of $525 > Your bid of $530 won. (Sorta like a next big win's -- If bidder #2 is in cahoots with the seller) The suspended account cost you an immediate total of $60 pending bidder 3 is legit.

My computer froze three times while writing this; it's slowly dying after traveling across the country.

 

[Slanted]

Garth made an interesting comment:

"I think they need to drop third party listings. The brand is getting hammered by them."

It's part of this discussion by extension:

http://tldinvestors.com/2017/07/nam...s-fake-accounts-to-show-how-to-shill-bid.html

Dropping 3rd-party listings would cure 90% of the shill bidding. From that standpoint, it's an excellent suggestion. Seen from another perspective, it would be overkill.

For 2 years, when I covered NameJet auction results at DNW each week, I filtered out everything but genuine expiry auctions. The primary reason, which I talked about fairly openly, was the propensity of seller-controlled auctions to be manipulated. Those auction results would have distorted my market analysis. Also, I didn't want to be anybody's stooge, giving undue publicity to pumped-up prices.

Rampant shill bidding in this industry has been known about for many years. Without letting NameJet off the hook, it's worth pointing out that other auction houses were also implicated or infected with this same problem:

http://domainnamewire.com/2015/01/26/buying-bids-at-flippa/

Many sellers at NameJet would be furious if 3rd-party auctions were discontinued. People would scream bloody murder. And many of them would be perfectly innocent. Personally, it wouldn't bother me, since I have listed inventory at NameJet only twice. In fact, I'd welcome that change. But other people find themselves in other positions.

NameJet itself could potentially lose revenue by doing this. Most of their super-premium domains come from 3rd parties. Those are the headline grabbers; so NameJet would lose publicity if they confined their auctions to the expiry stream.

For those reasons, I don't think it will happen. But certainly discontinuing 3rd-party auctions would cure most of the shill bidding. Even if that idea is not seriously entertained as a course of action, it's worth pondering as a thought experiment. If NameJet contained only genuine expiry auctions, how would things change for domainers – not just at NameJet but elsewhere? There would be many knock-on effects.

 

[DnEbook]

I formed an opinion about a certain individual mentioned lately when I displayed a few names of mine that were available via facebook, next thing I know there is a reply post saying "mine are better" and a list of their domains appeared ..... seems some of us do business a bit different than others

 

[toughdomains]

I formed an opinion about a certain individual mentioned lately when I displayed a few names of mine that were available via facebook, next thing I know there is a reply post saying "mine are better" and a list of their domains appeared ..... seems some of us do business a bit different than others

yes they do!

 

[Jim Holleran]

I formed an opinion about a certain individual mentioned lately when I displayed a few names of mine that were available via facebook, next thing I know there is a reply post saying "mine are better" and a list of their domains appeared ..... seems some of us do business a bit different than others

That is my world 100%, I have twin daughters, all I hear all day and night, is "mine are better(lol) But they are only 9

 

[DnEbook]

That is my world 100%, I have twin daughters, all I hear all day and night, is "mine are better(lol) But they are only 9

Yes ..... sadly we are talking about adults

 

[offthehandle]

Hi Joseph, I have read your writing and analysis in DNW, always enjoyed it. Some blog comments as well. I have no idea of the inner workings and their qualifications to restore trust. My unqualified suspicion is these are not experienced auction people, but technical software people and managers. I think fresh blood and outside help is needed immediately.

I realize what you are saying, however 3rd party sellers would be unduly harmed, and so would the platform. This is going to sound strange, but would it be possible theoretically that if 3rd party premium names were "consigned" with seller specific reserves and then all "managed" by a certain trusted manager who has fiduciary duty and restore confidence. This person must be a highly trusted experienced auctioneer, familiar with multi million dollar tech auctions. If nothing else, they should be sought out for consultation it seems to me, if they have not been already. I will refrain from posting a name, but there is a very well known group that might be able to evaluate the entire situation. This way the platform and sellers show transparency, and loop holes that exist are identified and cleaned up. It would be the fastest way to resolve it too. Trying to come up with ideas.

 

[zurc.net]

yes they do!

The nerve...

 

[anantj]

Being that I'm trying to gain a full handle on NameJet rules - what's the difference between blind bidding and proxy bidding? Aren't proxy's blind in nature? Or is it simply the high bid will be available at some point before the auction ends - and it's not a silent auction type.

Very different concepts.:

Proxy Bidding: A proxy bid is essentially a bid on your behalf by an agent aside from you. In the case of online auctions, typically the software (although for more sophisticated users, bots act as the proxy). In most cases, the bids, the bid history, and starting bids are all publicly visible - the latter possibly prior to the start of the auction
Blind Bids: In this case, bidders submit a sealed bid (paper and envelope in old skool auctions) and private bids on online platforms. All bidders merely submit a single bid and the highest from all bidders is the winner of the auction. Bidders do not know the starting bid of the other bidders until all the bids are unsealed.

 

[anantj]

(Sorta like a next big win's -- If bidder #2 is in cahoots with the seller)

Probably not. It was likely a proxy bid and not a "next bid wins" reserve lowering.

The suspended account cost you an immediate total of $60 pending bidder 3 is legit.

On what basis is this assertion? How are you assuming that bidder 2 was suspended as a result of fraudulent bidding in this auction? There can be a host of other reasons which could have resulted in bidder 2's suspension and hence it is further possible that their bids were legitimate in this auction.

 

[xn--v4h.com]

Most of the world hates us domainers already, and many domainers are jealous of other people's success within the domain industry. And many make up BS to try to bring other's down, haters will always hate. That is why most successful domainers do NDA now on big sales.

However, I think the community is finally sick of all the fraud and BS going on, and nothing get's addressed. Many people are afraid to speak up, because of the "old boys network", "sponsors from there blogs, etc. The people who speak up with facts should be applauded. Personally if I never sell 1 more domain in my life, I am still ok, but just like people who mentor me, guided me, when I came in the late 90's in this industry, I feel it's right to call out those who are behind these fraud schemes to help protect noobies from getting burned.

Nobody is perfect, we all made mistakes, but when the same stuff that happens over and over and over again, keeps happening, enough is enough.

Ok I can agree with that. There is no place for envy here because the major players are truly trying to share their knowledge. Results will vary though. Ultimately I hope everyone here be careful next time before making accusations. Thanks for your thoughts.