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BC30.com UDRP lost by Namepros Member

Labeled as UDRP in Legal Discussion, started by Silentptnr, Feb 20, 2020

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  1. Keith

    Keith Top Contributor VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Do what I do and never list a domain for sale, anywhere. And these agent types aren’t worth a response.

    Serious buyers will find you and those buyers are the only type that matter!
     
    The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
  2. DanSanchez

    DanSanchez Brokerage & Acquisitions Epik.com Staff VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The price quoted previously is no longer valid once the other party leaves the table.

    The only person not doing the right thing here is the one that resorted to violence and force to remove another person's property, likely at a higher time/capital cost than it was just to buy it voluntarily. How can you hope anyone loses? The right thing to do is to make profit to feed your family in a voluntary way, you seem to have the definitions completely backwards.

    "Every man is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. Each man must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.”
     
  3. Silentptnr

    Silentptnr Top Contributor VIP

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    So much is subjective. We naturally take a defensive posture toward the property owner when in question.

    I was careful with the thread title and initial post to focus only on facts.... A UDRP was lost. A payday was missed.

    Whether the defense was enough, not enough, whether the decision was right or wrong could be argued and would be a matter for legal professionals in my opinion.

    I was more or less interested in the process and the reasoning behind the facts related to the decisions about defending the name.

    Rob explained that a combination of cost, time and a reliance on the procedure working out were his thoughts. He also explained his plan based on the ultimate decision.

    I've never had a udrp, but I have had a couple of small losses due to fraudulent sellers, but I too made a bit of a stink, swept it under the rug and the poor bastard that bought the next name from me paid a little more. :) Just kidding.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  4. sharfab

    sharfab Established Member

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    It may be wise to understand the full story before you share happy feelings of another person's loss of a domain name in UDRP. Rob clearly explained that he did not know both offers came from the same person. So therefore he has a right to change the price if the first deal was never accepted and to start fresh with what he assumed was a new second buyer. "Price adjusting" is common in domaining, it's only frowned upon when it takes place while the deal is still in play...:xf.wink:
     
  5. timestamp

    timestamp Established Member

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    Buyer no.2 makes an opening offer of $4200, which was the asking price for buyer no.1.
    What are the odds of that happening?
     
  6. nothere

    nothere Established Member

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    That is the way the company that had BC30 trademarked looked at it. I'm sure they have no hard feelings. Sometime you win. sometimes you lose this game of differential pricing. Either way, people need to accept it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  7. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    THAT is the root of the issue: WIPO's allowed one of their henchmen to concoct a nonsense narrative. That false narrative clearly made no effort to fact-check the assertion which means an erroneous conclusion. As the ultimate production and of review of evidence will validate, there was no actual malfeasance or bad faith registration nor bad faith in any subsequent negotiation that could have easily been a moonshot.

    I am sure WIPO got this wrong. We are now evaluating our options here and contemplating whether to pursue damages for defamation by propagating the nonsense that not actively defending a domain that has low basis is an admission of guilt. I expect WIPO to function in its fiduciary capacity and not be a bounty hunter for corporate domain buyers who don't want to negotiate a fair price in good faith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  8. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    When you get to the place in your life where you process 1000 emails per day, please let me know how you get along with keeping track of random emails from Domain Agents that you receive, spread out over an extended period while keeping up with your commitments and obligations that are more pressing than making a buck here or there. I can tell you for certain that I did not even bother to check what the prior offer was. I had a vague recollection of a prior offer and in a matter of seconds replied with a counter. I actually work harder on client offers than I do mine. Fancy that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  9. topdom

    topdom Top Contributor VIP

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    You can tell them, to pay 4200 to you anyway, and count this as their purchase cost, otherwise you would go to a court and and make them lose the domain, and pay for legal expenses. So this would be a counter CD letter. Normally this wouldn't work, but if an attorney writes the letter, it may (?). UDRP appeal may be another option. If JBH writes the letter it may be taken seriously....

    Can it be the case that wipo encurages wrong decisions, so they would make money from appeals as well.
     
  10. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    Working on engaging counsel.

    As counsel has suggested, there are 2 options at this stage:

    1. File suit within 10 business days of notification of the decision in the Mutual Jurisdiction.

    2. Go "Full metal jacket," don't transfer the domain name, and go to the mat with ICANN Compliance over it.

    We are evaluating our options.

    For those who wonder, my fundamental issue is not the $4K in missed revenue. That is certainly material but in the larger scheme, most of those DomainAgents inquiries have been a waste of time so folks might understand why I mostly ignore them largely due to the absence of sufficient meta data. Same for Sedo by the way. I ignore since most of what comes in just low-ball tire-kicking noise. Sincere buyers eventually find a WHOIS record or contact us via our landing pages.

    We'll see how this plays out.

    By the way, see my 2020 prediction thread:

    https://www.namepros.com/threads/happy-new-years-what-is-your-2020-forecast.1170533

    Not only did I predict that Uniregistry would be acquired, but I predicted this:

    upload_2020-2-21_17-1-46.png
     
  11. Mister Funsky

    Mister Funsky Top Contributor VIP

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    I am actually conflicted which way I would like to see you take it. It is understood you motive is not the money/profit but would either option have more of a monetary reward (if any) than the other?
     
  12. bmugford

    bmugford www.DataCube.com PRO VIP ICA Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I am going to assume Epik is an ICANN accredited registrar. I am also going to assume as an accredited registrar you need to accept certain TOS such as when it comes to UDRP decisions.

    I largely disagree with this decision, but IMO it could be a potential disaster if you go that route.

    Brad
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  13. karmaco

    karmaco Top Contributor VIP

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    This case unfortunately was probably lost on the response. He just didn’t like the response. Response should have all the reasons why you did not buy in bad faith, price comps, and any supportive evidence including your take on the offers.

    I would take it a step further and say it was lost based on the person who owns it. That’s discriminatory and they just hide behind previous UDRPs to explain it away. Bottom line is they didn’t like the response and don’t like Rob. If they can rule against him apparently they will.
     
  14. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    We'll navigate it with counsel's input.

    My point is that WIPO has failed in their mandate. You can be sure that this is not a selfish statement. It is a general statement that WIPO has become bounty hunters for their (corporate) sponsors.

    That was not WIPO's mandate. I would like to see it replaced with technology that will do a better job at mediating disputes than what WIPO offers today.

    In the meantime, it would be really great if more marketplaces would follow Epik's example and show the full contact details of any inquiry. It would have prevented this annoying chapter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  15. Innoverge

    Innoverge Top Contributor VIP

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    It's only fair that the burden of proof be on neither parties and every case be analyzed solely based on its unique elements and circumstances, which it usually has.

    Also lack of a proper defense shouldn't constitute an admission of guilt, especially when some of the complaints are so outrageous and desperate that, spending money defending it would only make it worse.

    As preposterous arguments go, this is quite hilarious:-
    "The fact that the Respondent has not used the Disputed Domain Name or sought to contact the Complainant for eight years also shows bad faith. The Respondent was waiting for the Complainant to approach him and to negotiate an extortionate price."
     
  16. DanSanchez

    DanSanchez Brokerage & Acquisitions Epik.com Staff VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Wow that is ludicrous, I missed that part.
     
  17. Reddstagg

    Reddstagg Upgraded Member Gold Account

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    If I may, please let me explain a situation that I have encountered in my life which is intrinsically linked to domain investing.

    I spend the best part of 10 years pouring my blood, sweat and tears into writing and publishing a book. For arguments sake lets call it 'Reddstagg Ranger'. I finish the book and self publish it on Kindle. It should be mentioned here that it was quite a controversial book and was aimed for the adult market.

    Low and behold after a few months I check on-line and see another book called 'Reddstagg Ranger and the Zombies from Moon'. This was a children's book. I contacted the Publisher and advised them that I had previously published a book using the 'Reddstagg Ranger' title and would they kindly remove their book as it was 'identical or confusingly similar'.

    However, lesson learned. It is not possible to attach a copyright to the title of a book and that's why if you search carefully you will find many examples of books published at different times by different people with the same title.

    This concept makes absolutely no sense to me.

    My view on this situation is that owning a trademark and running a business is completely different to owning a domain name. If you can't or won't spend money to register all available domain names when you have the opportunity to do so then that is at your peril.

    If you like a house and you're very near to pulling the trigger on the purchase, but don't or you delay and I come along and buy the house how can it be fair for you to go running off to a third party adjudicator and state that you own several other houses on that street so you should be given the house instead of me. It's different if you have already signed a contract. That's the law and it should be abided by. However, many years are hundreds of years old and no longer apply in today's world.

    I urge everyone involved to do all that they can to change the tide in our favor.

    There used to be a legal precedent which stated that the law should be according to what is 'reasonable'. If someone breaks in to your house you are permitted by law to use reasonable force. Unfortunately, no two people would have the same definition of reasonable.

    A 'Reasonable' compromise in cases like this may be if it is beyond reasonable doubt that an infraction has occurred, whether deliberate or accidental then the domain name may be handed over to the TM holder but a reasonable and fair form of compensation should be offered to the domain investor.

    No system is completely fool proof but maybe only having one adjudicator on the panel offers a distorted view of what is 'Reasonable'.

    Regards,

    Reddstagg
     
  18. Shaan Chopra

    Shaan Chopra Established Member

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    "GANEDENBC30 registered on March 27, 2008" I don't think they mean to say that BC30 is in the name so any domain which has BC30 in it they will take it. That will be like too much. On the fun side if this is true I will go tomorrow and register for "Abcdef to z" and anyone who has these words in their domain name be ready to hand it over, I am coming for you all.

    Now just with the term "BC30"
    BC30 Filing Date October 13, 2010
    Published for Opposition July 26, 2011

    My question is being such a big company they did not care to buy the domain from October 13, 2010, to June 1, 2011. Oh, they were waiting for the trademark to get approved.

    Domain Name was registered on June 2, 2011

    Is there a way to check all the pending trademark registration?

    Trade Mark Registration Date September 3, 2013

    So now the trademark is now approved and I just don't understand what were they doing from Sep 3, 2013, to 2019? :sleep::sleep:

    Now coming back to GANEDENBC30 the domain GANEDENBC30 .com is created on 20-10-2006 way before the trademark actually came online. Domain points to the main site and I don't know if the bought it later or they were the first to reg.

    Anyhow, best of luck.

    P.S looking at all this I think domains and trademarks should be looked differently.
     
  19. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    I should add this.

    The domain name BC30.com was dropped by a former registrant at Epik. That's actually how we got it.

    - It was registered on June 2, 2011 by a registrant whose first name is "Mike".

    - He never logged in again after June 3, 2011.

    - We sent renewal notices 7 times as we normally do.

    - When the domain dropped out of grace period, we kept it rather than sending it through the expiry stream.

    Anyway, definitely no foul play here. My cost basis was 8 years of .COM renewal.
     
  20. Reddstagg

    Reddstagg Upgraded Member Gold Account

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    Here's a thought.

    Is there a list of everything that doesn't have a registered TM? It's probably a short list.

    Regards,

    Reddstagg
     
  21. Keith

    Keith Top Contributor VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Not to side track the discussion but this is a huge issue for me. Netsol does the same thing with valuable domains. Seems like an abuse of power.

    To be fair, all expired domains should follow the same process. If you want it, let it delete and compete/pay the fair market value.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  22. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    Actually, you are mistaken, and here's why:

    At Epik, if a domain is dropped by a client and they need to recover it, for the next 1 year if we have the domain they are free to recover it for a fixed price of $199.

    If 1 out of 24 persons come back to retrieve an abandoned name, we break even at a renewal cost of $8.10 for .COM. It is a win-win and the $199 pays for the others that don't come back.

    If it is a case of bulk neglect, we'll often waive the fee, e.g. if it was a hospitalization or other tragedy that could not have been foreseen.

    And if folks are truly disposing of domains we now give them a risk-free to liquidate those names at NameLiquidate and made it a one-click process to submit inventory.

    So, yes, not only are you off topic, but you are wrong as well. If you have a problem with the practice, go buy a registrar. You can look at their public finances and find out that is not all that lucrative a gig.
     
  23. Keith

    Keith Top Contributor VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    If you held ALL expired domains for a year beyond the expiry I’d buy the argument. You don’t do that because of your BO system in place, which isn’t honored fairly across the board either.

    In this case, you simply took the domain for yourself. You kept it instead of sending through the expiry process, in your own words.

    If you don’t see the problem there I can’t help you out.
     
  24. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    I suppose I should have left it for a dropcatcher who would ask for vastly more from the former registrant if he came knocking.

    The reality is that most days there is no time to even bother reviewing the expiry stream before it goes to Snapnames. That's one main reason why people find a lot of deals here:

    https://marketplace.epik.com/daily-diamonds

    We have saved some folks' bacon though. I can tell you that much.

    Since we are on the topic of free market capitalism, versus whatever you aspire to for the industry, I do have two related questions:

    Do you not like the idea that brokers should help sellers get higher prices for domains sold on NameLiquidate.com for domains that the registrant is liquidating?

    Do you not like the idea that a vast number of new bidders are arriving in the industry from emerging markets, and that they use the same tools to find inventory that you do?

    Just trying to understand how much of a scarcity mindset is driving your view on this topic. If you want to share your real name, that would be cool too.
     
  25. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    As for the Complaint with their over-reaching case, let's also take inventory of who we are talking about:

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/edmondscanlon/

    upload_2020-2-22_13-49-28.png

    Annual revenue of about $6.6 billion.

    I had no idea that this was the person trying to buy the domain, but clearly whether the price was $4200 or $7500, it was in their price range. This was far from being exploitative.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020

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