debate Are domainers unknowingly destroying domaining!?

[artstar]

Domaining from my research within the last 10 years has revealed that the influx of new domainers has seemingly destroyed domain values.

I say this because it seems they are selling domains at far lower prices than they should which leads to destroying values on other domains when this practice is done.

For example look at namebio 3d domain sales

The sales prices IMO are far below what they might have been even 2 years ago

I think too many newbie flippa domainers are flipping domains in quantity to get a fast buck but they were unwittingly destroying domain valued across the board by performing such sales practices!

Is it just me or do you see the same trend?

:P

 

[Rick Ace]

I think the entire argument that domainers are somehow ruining the market is flawed. Demand comes from the consumer side. When demand goes up, and supply goes down, prices will naturally rise. If many newbie domainers under-price their domains, they'll soon run out of domains to under-price, and the overall market-rate will catch up.

That's also what we saw with the 4L .com situation. A lot of good names were being sold at low prices, until there just weren't any good 4 letter names left in the hands of newbies.

 

[Jen-Sin]

I respectfully disagree as well.

We should thank the new domainers because as they buy up more domains, it further restricts the supply of domains. This will only help the established domainers who have good names to begin with, as new domainers buy up the alternatives to their good names.

This however might be true only for .com and new gTLDs, but not .net, .org, .info, .biz.

 

[nvdomains]

Long term is a different strategy that works for some while not for (most) others. Just like in stock market, there are daily traders and there are long term investors.

Best reply. Nothing to add.

Day traders can not change the worth of a good long term stock. Flippers can not change the worth of a good domain if you have patience.

 

[nvdomains]

Rick Schwarz says that every second you are minding somebody else's business, you are ignoring yours. I agree with this.

Domain King...one and only..

 

[Branded Domains]

nice post...its up to the domainer whether he sell the domain for $1 or for $1m.....

 

[infosec3]

In order to fully understand the origin and nature of this argument, we must ask the question: How much is a domain name worth? In reality, the value of a domain is what the buyer who needs it wants to pay for it. There are millions of domain names for which you will never find a buyer who would pay you $20K.

Let me illustrate this for you with my own example. Although once in a while I sell four-figure names, the bulk of my sales are hand-registered names, for which end-users are ready to pay between $200 and $700. Whenever I find an end-user willing to buy one of those, I sell it.

Sure, I could sit on the name for ten years and ask for five figures everytime some one inquires, but the questions is: Who is going to buy it at that price? Even for more valuable names, I cannot play the waiting game.

Rick Schwartz, Mike Mann, Frank Schilling (all great investors and my respect to them) can afford to say no one thousand times even for the less valuable name in their portfolio, because they do not need to accept $5K in order to keep going... But, are you in that league?

It is true that there are cases in which regardless of how much I might have wanted the $1000 offered, I did not accept until I got at least a few thousand. But for me that is not the norm. That is the exception. Others can play the waiting game if they want and can. That is fine. You proceed according to your own circumstances and needs, but in my case, the concept that guides my business is constant liquidity.

 

[Templr]

Why should all domainers sit on their investments for 6-10 years. Some domainers need to make rent, some just like to keep flipping, it's business. Many sale prices are within the tiered system of the domain industry anyhow, so it's keeping the business flowing.

 

[Templr]

Unless you have 'true' premium domain names, but in making a living, I don't expect to hold for ultra high prices when dealing with clients. I'm fine to provide names at very competitive prices.

 

[artstar]

Wows lots of great responses!

I think my idea of domain valuation has been skewed as I must be reverting back a few years in my perception if valuation.
Its just that I see some domains being sold for quite a bit less than what they may have sold for in prior years.

That's when their was less flippers possibly and less TLDs so more dot com domains were demanding higher prices .

I fully understand its capitalism as I have no issues with making $$ of course but it was the perception I had that due to the quick flips that may have dragged down the overall prices of domains.

Not sure if I can making my point but I not against making doe I'm concerned that it is affecting valuation in both short and long term but ad many have said they dont care as long has they make a decent roi they are happy with that and its the buyer who decides what the market will bear.

To sum up if you ask for more u get more and if the majority of domainers don't sell lout cheap we all benefit rather than selling them for much less as seems to be the case today imo

 

[Rick Ace]

Its just that I see some domains being sold for quite a bit less than what they may have sold for in prior years.

That's when their was less flippers possibly and less TLDs so more dot com domains were demanding higher prices .

I think part of the reason why you see domains being sold for lower prices is because trends change. But you're right about the influx of TLDs causing a drop in value for certain types of .com domains.

Nevertheless, I think the increase in domain flippers has also led to an increase of end-users that are interested in finding good names. In the past, some people would just purchase any available domain for their site. Now, with so many domain sellers around, the domain resale market is much more visible. And I think that's a good thing.

However, I suppose if there were less flippers, then new TLDs might just not take-off at all, as the industry might remain "traditional".

 

[artstar]

So its a situation wherein the more exposure of domains to buyers by said flippers the more demand for our domains but due to such the values drop because the more domains made available to end buyers equals lower sales price because of the greater exposure.?

So now at this point in time to make $ in domaining you either have to own premium domains you can afford to sit on and bide your time knowing one day hopefully you holding out will pay off much bigger or else's you become a flipper day trading domains like penny stocks?!

Well I guess then if I don't become a flipper I'm out of the domain business because I have zero premium domains to sit on and hold.

Its a new paradigm in domaining now and I'm trying to figure out how to proceed if at all anymore in this industry.

Or am I just confused?

 

[Rick Ace]

So its a situation wherein the more exposure of domains to buyers by said flippers the more demand for our domains but due to such the values drop because the more domains made available to end buyers equals lower sales price because of the greater exposure.?

Instead of going into a loop, I think it's best to use specific examples. There was a topic about drone-related domains earlier. Recently, many people (with different experience levels) got into the game. We began to see many good domains being sold lower than its value. Some even feel that the entire drone domain market is being watered down. However, that notion is countered by people who are successful at selling even hand regged drone domains.

Although, domaining has changed a lot, I think it's changing trends that is the bigger factor. People selling domains at low prices doesn't have a long-term effect.

 

[artstar]

Ah OK so become a trendytrend flipper with eye on quick roi and to heck with the future of domain values, so carpe diem domaining is the answer!

I'm in! Time to sell fast and cheap the new domaining business model sounds like a great plan!!

The George Castanza method, do thee exact opposite of what I normally would do, I'm up for any changes cause what I'm doing now suks! Lol

 

[DomainGist]

I say this because it seems they are selling domains at far lower prices than they should which leads to destroying values on other domains when this practice is done.

The massive influx of alternative extensions is the more obvious reason for falling domain prices.

Massive increase in supply Vs little or no increase in demand = falling prices.

Has nothing to do with the number of 'domainers', but the number of domains, as simple as.

Also, with an account created in 2014, aren't you part of the "influx"? If indeed there has even been one, namepros traffic (quantcast) has remained fairly static in the two years in which they have had their traffic directly 'quantified', seems to imply that there is no more activity now than there was two years ago? As namepros is by far the biggest domaining community, if there were a vast increase in the number of people trading domains we'd expect the number of visitors to have vastly increased too?

There have also been some radical changes in domaining which have been created as a result of google algorithm changes. Take penguin for example, which massively devalued exact match domains, there was a time when you could just buy a three or four word exact match domain like buylaptopbagsonline.com, throw up a wordpress microsite, create a few hundred artificial backlinks, and quickly rank easily at #1 for the phrase "buy laptop bags online" within a few weeks.

As a result affiliate marketers would pay very good money for domains like that, thousands in the right niche, I was one of them in fact, I had several hundred exact match domains, almost half of which were developed, almost all of which just siphoned traffic from google and sent it straight to amazon or ebay for a % of the resulting sale.

Several times I dropped several hundred dollars on domains which I wouldn't spend reg fee on now, and I considered them a bargain at the time, because I could spend $300 on a domain, throw up a microsite and make it back in a couple of months....

.... meanwhile, the death of the EMD has coincided with the rise of the brandable, which are now more 'google friendly', and people build brands now because their strategy for organic/free/cheap traffic now requires them to build up large social media followings.

So in that two years I'd argue that demand and prices for strong brandables has significantly increased, I'm sure sites like BrandBucket have grown exponentially in the past few years?

Domains are just a commodity aren't they, demand increases and decreases, arguably the value of the types of .com domains where supply is limited has continued to increase, look at what has happened to the price of LLLL.com domains in just 2015 alone, at the end of last year I was passing on the opportunity to buy mediocre ones for $30 to $40....... and if I'd purchased I could have trebled or even quadrupled my money even just by flipping them on namepros auctions, where prices are famously low.

LLLL.com domains currently look a better bet than bitcoin!

 

[artstar]

First of just because I joined NP in 14 doesn't mean I haven't been involved in domains which started in ,05 BTW so you have already made an ad hominem attack based on data you are assuming.

Also I find that even .com are selling for a lot less in comparison to what they once we're so of course new TLDs have affected domains valuations to drop across the board and that is of course not due to domainers involvement
but the registrars who profit from sell the new extensions

Don't forget panda as well!
Your reasoning is sensible but is nebulous and obviously obvious.

Nice rant tho!

 

[DomainGist]

an ad hominem attack

Slightly hyperbolic use of language there my friend, no attack occurred.

Neither do I consider my response a "rant", if indeed it is even possible to rant in writing - aren't they usually verbalised?

It was intended to be a mere contribution to a debate that you started with a question. I'll have to assume now that your question was entirely rhetorical, if the only acceptable answer is one that you wholly agree with.

 

[DomainVP]

To put it simply, because a lot of great points have already been said, 'low' and 'high' is arbitrary because in the end a domains price point ends with different decision from each individual seller.

There are people in the forum that announce from high heaven when they get a quick flip $600 sale, and there are others that will strategically slow play a domain for years to get a six figure deal.

Was the $600 sale 'low', possibly, but not for the seller.

It's the same with 'good' and 'bad' domains, there is no such thing...
Unless you own a double hyphen in a gTLD, then my friend what are you doing?

If you can catch a domain on the drop with zero competition, that means you saw something else no one else did. To go on and sell that name for $5k+ means that someone else saw value in that name as well, and you made a great pick.

But consider... what if you never placed that backorder, and that domain would have dropped to hand reg? Does that mean the same domain name is less in value? No, of course not.

Is a random pinyin 4L worth more than a 4L containing AEIOUV? Not to a future business owner that will start his company using the BAOW name (hypothetical). Again... it's all relative.

The average selling price of a domain property does not effect what my prices are, it certainly effects sales, but I will ask what I ask regardless of what 'other similar domains' have sold for.

Keep in mind; similar is not equal. You may have the best domain name in the niche, but you sold it at an average moving price based on 'recent sales'. - as the seller of Alphabet.xyz learned the hard way.

Either someone buys it, or they don't, but be firm with a price that makes you happy.

 

[Asfas1000]

There are people who work for $3/hour and others who Value their time as 300/hour. Depends...

 

[DomainGist]

Well for sure but its affecting your domain values! Do u even care?

If you think domain prices are low now, wait until the tech bubble finally bursts.

 

[Archangel]

It only increases my pockets so no, I don't care. It's doing the exact opposite of what you're talking about. It helps me all/hurts me none. Funny how you see it differently.

Well for sure but its affecting your domain values! Do u even care?


The

 

[Kate]

A domainer can also be a flipper and a long term holder at the same time.

We all have names in our portfolio that are better than others. When you have quality names, get repeated inquiries and unsolicited offers you don't flip them. You want to hold out for the right offer. There are some names that you want to liquidate fast, there are others than you are willing to keep as long as necessary.

 

[ChubbyDfat]

For example look at namebio 3d domain sales

The sales prices IMO are far below what they might have been even 2 years ago

My thought on this one is that the quality of names has also dropped and prices was in lock step with them.

With that being said, I do not think that 3D is a fad... just that attention(s) have/are being placed else where for the moment.
equity78 showed an image of a trend for the term 3D. What I think most people saw was that currently, 3D is moving into a trough after coming off of a peek.
If you look at the image however, it will show that there was a peek prior to 2005 that moved into a trough in 2007 and peeked again in 2012 and is not moving back into a trough.
I think what we see there is the ebb and flow of life.

3D is a narrow market and when its in the news... people follow it. When it is out of the news, there is still an attraction to it... just not as big.

So to bring this back to the original post.
There are more domainers now then there where a few years ago.
There are more options now then a few years ago.
Even the average layperson is becoming savvy to domains/websites/online presence. All of that equates to people looking for better deals and in turn lower prices.
To say it is *JUST* domainers, I think would be a misplacement of blame on the natural progress of sales.

Just my thought... read it at your own peril!

Cheers

 

[equity78]

It depends where you look in .com if it is getting affected, 3L,4L,4N and 5n have not been affected they are up from 3 years ago.

EMD as Pug pointed out are down. People are focusing more on brands, I show Mike Berkens names all the time and Mike has certainly purchased plenty of EMD's like MotorCycleHelmets.com. Last time I showed EMD's he said those names are not getting as many offers and he cares more about brandables like SuperSeats.com which he sold for $48,000.

 

[greggb]

Domaining from my research within the last 10 years has revealed that the influx of new domainers has seemingly destroyed domain values.

I say this because it seems they are selling domains at far lower prices than they should which leads to destroying values on other domains when this practice is done.

For example look at namebio 3d domain sales

The sales prices IMO are far below what they might have been even 2 years ago

I think too many newbie flippa domainers are flipping domains in quantity to get a fast buck but they were unwittingly destroying domain valued across the board by performing such sales practices!

Is it just me or do you see the same trend?

:P

Even if domainers are unknowingly destroying domaining, there's nothing we can do to stop them, making the conversation we're having now somewhat futile. Though I've never refrained from participating in conversations before for the simple fact that they're futile. So here are my thoughts.

The domain market is very unique in that every domain name is unique. No two domain names are exactly alike. And only one person/business has the domain name a potential buyer is looking for. So domainers are never really directly in competition with each other, like businesses who sell men's clothing, or potatoes, or sex toys. And because domainers are never in direct competition with each other, the prices one domainer sets has very little, or probably more like no effect on the business of another. You can't just go somewhere else to get a domain name you have your eye on.

So to answer your question, no I don't see such a trend.

 

[kemjika11]

Domaining from my research within the last 10 years has revealed that the influx of new domainers has seemingly destroyed domain values.

I say this because it seems they are selling domains at far lower prices than they should which leads to destroying values on other domains when this practice is done.

For example look at namebio 3d domain sales

The sales prices IMO are far below what they might have been even 2 years ago

I think too many newbie flippa domainers are flipping domains in quantity to get a fast buck but they were unwittingly destroying domain valued across the board by performing such sales practices!

Is it just me or do you see the same trend?

:P

IMO new gTLDs are reducing the value of domain names(price wise) more than new domainers flipping domains for low values.

I also feel like you are seeing what you want to see because havent domainers also lead to the public awareness and enlightenment about the domain industry? i dont see you acknowledging that but instead you are bashing domainers for selling domains cheaply.

Maybe 3d domains are selling weak now because thats the flaw of "trending" domains? maybe the 3D fad is passing away?