Another Non-Paying Sedo Buyer

[Neophyte]

I am SICK and TIRED of these Sedo deadbeat buyers thinking they can get away with their foolishness with impunity. Here is my latest Sedo deadbeat buyer story:

Read the series of communication between this deadbeat and I and let me know what you think. Feel free to add this "buyer's" information to your blogs/threads.

Here is the first email I sent after getting the buyer's contact information from Sedo aver waiting several weeks for payment that was never made:

Dear Mr. XXXX:

My name is xxxx, and I am the owner of xxxx. Sedo forwarded your contact information to me because you agreed in a legally binding contract to buy xxxx.com through Sedo, and you failed to pay for the domain name. While Sedo referred you to me for potential legal action for breach of contract, it is my hope that we can come to a resolution where both parties can be happy--you get the domain name, and I will receive payment as promised.

While looking at your website, it is evident that you could benefit from my domain name. The hyphen in your current domain is really dragging down your site's value, not to mention the lost traffic from people who forget to type that hyphen into their browsers. I am confident that you will recoup the cost of my domain name easily just from the new traffic you will receive. And you don't have to build another site. Just forward this domain to your existing site to capture that traffic.

So I am convinced that you NEED this domain, and not purchasing it would be a mistake. I will work with you, as long as you pay as agreed. I can also lease the domain to you (you make monthly installment payments) if price is an issue.

I need to hear from you ASAP so we can settle this matter. Thank you for your time and attention.

XXXX response:

I think money must be the issue on your end. I have never had anyone pursue $497.00 like it was the lotto prize before. I have many customers who are used to finding me with the hyphen. I simply changed my mind on this matter. There is nothing legally binding here so I would appreciate it if you and Sedo would quit harassing me.

Mr. XXXX

My response to this, with comments:

Dear Mr. XXXX:

My position on this matter is clear. The amount of money involved is not the issue. There is a principle here, and it is unfortunate that you as a business owner do not understand this. You made a commitment to buy the domain through the Sedo marketplace. Sedo lets buyers know that any offer made on their platform is legally binding, and you should not click "buy it now" if you are not in agreement with that. There is no "I changed my mind." That is not acceptable.

You can either pay what is owed willingly, or you will be forced to pay legally. That is up to you. I will give you 24 hours from the timestamp on this email to contact me to make payment arrangements and to submit payment to me. If payment is not made within the time period specified, the next communication you will receive will be a Summons for you to appear in small claims court concerning this matter.

Please keep in mind that amount I will be seeking from the Court will be far more than $497, and will include court costs, my travel expenses to your county in NC, and other remedies allowed by law. I also reserve the right to post your name, website, and contact information identifying you as a deadbeat Sedo buyer online until payment is made. My comments regarding the email you sent me are in bold, below.


I think money must be the issue on your end. (Why wouldn't money be an issue on my end? I am in business to make money, just as you are). I have never had anyone pursue $497.00 like it was the lotto prize before. (The amount really doesn't matter. The issue is that you made a commitment to buy through Sedo and reneged on that commitment. The same thing would happen if the purchase price was $60. I have had collection agencies come after me for $25 medical bills!) I have many customers who are used to finding me with the hyphen. (This may be true, but you, not I, went on Sedo to buy xxxx.com.) I simply changed my mind on this matter. (So commitment means nothing to you? I wonder if you are so generous as you expect me to be if a buyer makes a commitment via contract to pay for furniture and then decides to change his or her mind and not pay what is owed). There is nothing legally binding here (I would suggest reading your contract again) so I would appreciate it if you and Sedo would quit harassing me.(You are responsible for paying Sedo's commission, so they may continue to contact you or take whatever action they deem necessary to collect...I have no control over this.)


Final response from XXXX:

Do what you gotta do.

These deadbeats think they can get away with this because of the cost and inconvenience involved with pursuing them through the legal system.

 

[discobull]

As long as international, cross-border litigations remain a mixed up hodgepodge of red tape, I can't see anyone ever receiving a reasonable solution to actually getting paid by a non-paying buyer.

I think that point is only relevant if you're planning on taking legal action and, as has been noted, that only makes sense when the numbers are large enough. That being said, I don't understand the attitude that if someone changes their mind you should simply leave them alone without putting in any further effort. We're in the business of selling domains, and to me that means that we should be prepared to actually do some selling when required. The idea that we should come close to finalizing a deal and then just walk away because the buyer has a change of heart, is something that I don't understand as being consistent with good salesmanship.

As far as I'm concerned, someone that goes through 90% of the process of purchasing a domain is a hot lead and, if I can, I'm going to try and push them that final 10% of the way. Yes, it irritates me that people are willing to walk away from a commitment, but I try to set that aside and focus on what's important -- closing the deal.

I'm admittedly not a huge user of Sedo, so my experience may be exceptional, but the one time someone closed a deal with me and then walked away, I pursued it and I got paid. Moreover, it happened without the need to file suit or even have an argument. After putting the deal on the back burner for a couple of months, I sent the buyer an email with no mention of Sedo and no hint of the fact that I knew he was the buyer. I had found out that he was already in a business that related to my domain, so I sent an inquiry to see if he had an interest in purchasing it. He replied almost immediately with an offer that was a little over half of what he had previously agreed to pay. Once I had an email from him confirming that he still wanted the domain, I politely ( I even included a smiley ) reminded him that he had already offered me twice as much on Sedo. The second I mentioned Sedo he stopped responding so maybe that wasn't such a good idea. I sent 2 more emails over the course of the week ( where are we at with this deal? ). Still no response. The guy was in Spain, but I don't care, I phoned him anyway. We had a conversation and ended up agreeing on a price that was 20% lower than on Sedo, but since I now wasn't paying a commission, it was not that big a difference. Clearly the amount in question, will determine how much effort is warranted, but I can't imagine a deal being so small that it isn't even worth sending a short email to try and salvage the deal.

 

[Kate]

Yes I did back out because I made it plain to Sedo who was sending me 2-3 emails a day harrasing me to buy. When I thought the situation over I decided that since everyone was used to typing my domain in a certain way it might actually hurt sales.

Please clarify this.
Were the E-mails reminders to pay the domain you agreed to buy, or were you spammed and compelled to buy the domain.
Sedo do send payment reminders, but I have never heard about people getting 2-3 E-mails per day.
You're probably exaggerating things, aren't you ?

You guys make a big deal over someone changing their mind and try to defame their character. What has the world come to. Nobody would you like a $50.00 peace offering? That seems to be what this is all about.

You entered into a legally binding contract.
You just can't back out of the deal because you feel like it, unless and where permitted by law.
It's not like making an informal inquiry, saying that you might be remotely interested in a domain... you made a formal commitment to buy at the price listed.

If the facts posted by the OP are true and accurate, then it's not defamation.

If you think it's all a game, then consider this thread is a game too... no big deal.

What a bunch of immature losers.

The OP did nothing wrong, immature is not behaving like an adult, and not fulfilling your commitments.

What you posted indicates that you are being unprofessional and immature: backing out a legally binding purchase, insulting the other party when they complain about your failure to pay. And now you just care about your reputation, but you still don't care about doing the right thing.

Perhaps you had a genuine intention to buy, then you realized your little business is so thriving that it doesn't have $497 in the bank

Try to work out something with the OP, it doesn't have to end like this.

 

[Bannen]

When there's a breach of contract or a dispute,there's only one way to proceed if you call yourself a business man,and this brings you through the legal path.

That is an ideal and it doesn't work in these cases. First, your average lawyer charges between $250 - 450 per hour, and a case like this would cost you a minimum of $15 - 25K, and easily more. And you don't get to just pay that as you go along, a reputable lawyer must have the retainer first, so you must pay them a huge lump sum before they even start to work for you. And remember that even if you send a simple question or 2 to your lawyer, for them to read it and reply might take 15 or 20 mins - which they bill you for - and that simple email will cost you over $100. So even the simple stuff like that can add up to thousands quite quickly, and then add on the research, investigation, and other legal tasks the lawyer must spend hours or days doing, on the phone and with paperwork...
For the kind of cases we're talking about, it's not worth going the 'legal route' even if your buyer had agreed to a price of 15 or 20K. You'll still lose money, and a lot of time out of your life.
In an ideal world legal systems would make it easier for those being screwed to get justice, but in the real world if you can't afford to pay tens of thousands $$ up front to a lawyer, then you won't get justice for this kind of matter.
And small claims court only works jurisdictionally; if you live in the same area as the buyer, small claims court might be a viable alternative (although domain deals are mostly far beyond the ken of most judges who will be overseeing your case, they'd have to do much research to clarify the things you'll be telling them, about Sedo and their TOS, domain trading, cybersquatting vs generic words, etc). But if you live in different countries, small claims won't work. Even if you live in different states, are you going to spend 1 or 2K and a few days of your time traveling to another state, hotel and food costs, time away from your job... to small claims court to settle a $500 non-payer?

That's what a business man would do,what a business man would never do is to open a thread in a public forum,sharing all sort of personal info. (including email correspondence).

You have an idealistic and unrealistic construction in your mind of what a 'businessman' is or does. There's no such thing as some mold called a businessman. There are just people, of all ages, genders, cultures, and personalities, doing business.
Some business people just scrape by month to month, barely paying their bills, and other business people are billionaires.
If you have no money to put towards a legal battle for a non-payer, what other recourse do you have? You have 3:
- forget it, let it go, move on and try sell the domain to someone else, and don't waste any more of your life energy on the failed transaction (focus is only on maintaining your inner peace and moving ahead to better possibilities, ha ha).
- stay polite and see if there's anything you can do with the non-payer, any way to salvage the deal with them using further negotiations (focus is only on the deal, salvaging what you can, maintaining open lines and good feelings just in case the buyer changes their mind again a month or year down the road and decides they actually do want the domain).
- put pressure on the non-buyer using free, guerrilla tactics like 'outing' them publicly. Even if this doesn't get you any money, it might help someone else not get screwed by them (focus is on justice, trying to enforce a contract and if that's not working then publicly outing the dishonesty of the buyer).

Many factors decide which (or all) of the above things you decide to go with. But one thing we all have in common: if someone screws up but they admit it, apologize, do what they can to make it right (even if that just means a sincere apology and promise to do better next time), we are likely to be patient and forgiving with them;
But as we see so often nowadays with the 'anonymous' users on the internet, so many young people (and some older ones) are learning they can blatantly and arrogantly screw someone and then often pay no consequences. Honesty and virtue are bulls**t to so many people now. And we hate being screwed over by someone who does it carelessly, arrogantly, delusionally, consistently, and then does their best to make we, the 'screwees', out to be the bad guys for trying to stop them.
Is it not important to also stand up to that?
Sometimes you just need to move on and let it all go behind you.
Sometimes you just need to concentrate on the deal and block the rest out.
Sometimes you just gotta fight for justice, fight against being casually screwed by people who just don't care, and use whatever free (and legal) means you can.

Guess it just depends what you're feeling like today.
Birds chirping, sun shining, maybe you let things go and walk outside in the field, smelling the flowers, forget all about the non buyer and wish them the best; got hemorrhoids and a headache and you're out of clean underwear, maybe it's time to nail the bastard. I've felt both ways, so who am I to tell you which is the right way to go, for you, right now?

:lol:

 

[DU]

Man, you need to give it up. First I did not use Melbourne It Ltd.'s whois service to get the information.

They are the registrar of record so you did.

Second, a business relationship (based on domains) had been established between the buyer and I, so I can't use the Whois database the to see what domains Mr. Keck owns and to make contact if needed?

Sure you can. But we're talking about sharing their information on a forum with the label "deadbeat", aren't we?

Judging from this, it would be wrong for me to get information from their whois database to send emails to end users, and a lot of domainers do that to sell domains.

A lot of people smoke pot...and speed.. and lots of other things too that aren't quite "legal" (everywhere)

Yes, a lot of domainers illegally spam people based on whois. Luckily most recipients hit ignore or send a simple reply - they don't publish all your private information all over a thread:

I can imagine it would be distressing to some if someone would post something like:

Michaela Jonson of [email protected] in Richmond is a SPAMMER and sends unsolicited emails for crap domain names I would never want on a social network. Think about that.

And again, I did not use Melbourne to do the look up. Feel free to publish the policies of the hundreds of other registrars out there if you like. Have fun!

I'll just use the pertinent one, thanks very much.



Dave Zan,

It's older but covers what people are looking for:

http://www.rbs2.com/email.htm

Basically you can share the emails as long as you're not doing anything illegal which you aren't.

That said, the buyer information is shared by Sedo with you for the purposes of legal remedy. What is being doneis not legal remedy but vindictive and vengeful. Sure this is within he OPs right. But perhaps this may change Sedo's willingness to share the information in the future - their reputation is being sullied in this thread just as much as the non-payer (though they don't give a crap about much worse criticism elsewhere).

Back To Nohbdyduzitbett (erexceptAPissedOffPengiun)

But back to the point. As far as actual losses that you are entitled to? Your actual losses are nearly nothing (you still own the underlying asset). You have the asset listed at $479. if you sell the name at that price your losses are $0 - if the name drops then perhaps your losses are the full amount. People back out of transaction like house sale contracts all the time and usually nothing happens (loss of earnest deposit) in part because the damages have to be related to the actual losses - i.e. you lose a contingency house etc. There's far less fuss than this stupid thread about deals in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But here's where you have crossed the line. In labelling the guy a deadbeat. You are don't know the circumstances related to other debts he may, or may not, owe. Is this his first non-payment? Did he just suddently hit on an unexpected expense? (granted in this instance you ask proactively for considerations).

You don’t know that he fails to pay all of his debts, just yours... so the term deadbeat is an over-reaching derogatory term. Labeling him as "a person who failed to pay" is not the same thing as a "deadbeat". The debtor does have rights (try calling him after 8pm for example). An aggressive creditor (which you are now) can be sued for slander etc. when derogatory terms are used because it's over aggressive, and potentially emotionally distressing (but it never happens and you can take advantage of that just like he taking advantage of no lawsuits for failure to pay...oh, the irony).

The best course of action for someone feeling spiteful would be to file something to a credit agency or sell the debt on to a collection agency and not publish a damning post on a public forum. In terms of collection agencies (which you kind of are in this situation) going about collecting a debt by labeling someone a deadbead or a criminal, and threatening lawsuits, disrupting their business are all considered extreme conduct. it's not blackmail but in a court your actions are threatening to his livelihood.

This is why we have debt collection agencies- they know the rules and have the time and you don't. For $500 they wouldn't do it because it's not worth it (a sign you should move on).

A better course would have simply been to send a simple request and take the high road. If you felt the need to "out" the guy you can do it in more professional terms. No one would think twice if you had a post stating simple facts.

Mr X Failed to complete a transaction on Y for $Z a failure to fulfil a contract.

Would that not achieve what is needed? In your mind not - you are creating a view of his person on the basis of derogatory terms and private emails. You want to make him look like shit. I don't know why.. to get $500 or make your penis feel bigger or something? I don't know.

Frankly, it says way more about you than you think.

Furthermore, the main problem with threads like this is that it brings out the lynch mob mentality and people get confidence in crowds. So much for everyone here who wants to improve the domainer reputation - we want respect, we're investors, we're just capitalists etc. etc.. we're misunderstood.. but then we have threads where in unison we yell our contempt if you cross us by daring to change your mind.

The reality is that everyone relies on someone's good will at one time or another and karma tends to the what comes around goes around. I hope that the next time you get in a situation where you can't meet an obligation, or someone wants a refund, or someone has a beef with you that you get treated with a little more kindness and a little less scorn. But you get the crowd riled, they all follow along and feel a unity

No one is saying that what the non-payer did is right. We all agree he is wrong. Where the difference in opinion lies is in the degree of punishment fitting the crime.

Anyone here have a kid that stole something from a shop and got caught? Were they let off? Should we start publishing their names on ThisKidIsADelinquent.com with their name?

It's all silly. The guy effed up. He didn't apologize but who knows if that was only because of the nasty mail he got?

I don't know they the heck I bothered writing this. The thread reads like a bunch of kindergartners fed up because Billy stole Bob's girlfriend and stole a kiss in the sandpit.

---------- Post added at 01:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

Final Note:

This is all moot anyway. Quick move to Legal Issues... and it's de-indexed (link dies at Namepros when no logged in). Nice sleight of hand Mr Moderator. Time to go update yelp and post at linkedin, facebook and Twitter :lol:

 

[DU]

Thread is not indexed so it will disappear from Google eventually.

Glad that there was some a resolution in the end that I hope is positive for both (one gets paid and one gets a much better domain at what I think is a reasonable price considering what it is).

I guess Bob got his girl back, Billy was forgiven, and the sand pit is fun again.

 

[Ryman21]

Good luck getting payment from this guy.

Doesn't even treat his customers right.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/carolina-discount-furniture-high-point-2

 

[Bannen]

I've only had 2 non-payers on Sedo; the first was for a $500 domain sale; the buyer timed out, I let the whole thing go without comment... then a month later the same buyer made the same offer, and it carried through smoothly.

The second time it was a $4500 sale (ouch). Sedo asked what I'd like to do, I asked them to block the guy's sedo account, which they did. The guy had the highest trader rating there so I don't know why he'd jeopardize that, but he did. After they gave me his personal info I looked him up. Actually a very wealthy businessman well into the millions and famous in his area as an entrepreneur, with a huge business website - my domain would have been better than the one he was using - who knows why he backed out.
I didn't have any hard feelings about it, basically business as usual even though the cash would have been nice. I actually sent an email, something really short, if I recall it was simply 'I'm the owner of the domain xxxxxxxxxx.com that you didn't pay for at Sedo. I won't be taking any legal action over this, so no worries and have a great life'. Didn't get snide or ask any questions about what happened.
Didn't receive a reply.


Life goes on, you get an offer for a domain, turns out to be a deadbeat or even a jerk, you lose the sale, sedo bans their account, they probably open another account the same day using different info, life goes on again.
Ha ha

---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------

Oh, when I google danny keck, this thread is at the top of google results on page 2, already

 

[Bannen]

Yes I did back out because I made it plain to Sedo who was sending me 2-3 emails a day harrasing me

Funny (tragic) how so many people start misusing terms in order to make it sound like something it isn't, to try get your way. Sedo isn't 'harassing' you; you signed up for their service, you made an offer for a domain, you accepted the electronic contract to pay for it, then you didn't pay. Sedo, as any company would, sent you reminder letters to nudge you into paying, or to find out why you weren't paying. 'Harassing'? Get over your own rhetoric.

to buy.

Again with the misinformation; they weren't emailing you to buy the domain, they were emailing you to PAY for the domain. You already bought it when you clicked the accept button to accept the transaction.

When I thought the situation over

Um... why didn't you think the situation over before hitting the buy now button? This is part of what we're on your case about. In the non-electronic world you don't meet with someone, work out a contract, SIGN the contract, and when it comes to pay then say 'Oh, I just thought about this. Changed my mind'. You, um, think about it before you sign the contract.

I decided that since everyone was used to typing my domain in a certain way it might actually hurt sales.

No problem; you simply keep your old domain also, and redirect it to the new one. When people type in your old hyphenated domain it will still go to your new address, you won't lose any visitors.

You guys make a big deal over someone changing their mind

We're not making a big deal over changing your mind; we're making a big deal out of WHEN you changed your mind, and why you allowed the transaction to get that far, instead of thinking things out before you clicked the buy now button.
And remember: we aren't just ragging on you for fun, we're not making this stuff up; Sedo's terms of service, and even when you actually click on the accept button for a domain you buy there, give you the clear notice that your offer is LEGALLY BINDING. It tells you clearly that you have entered into a legal agreement to buy (meaning pay for, not just 'think about') the domain. It states that message right near that little button that you click on to accept the deal.
In other words, you're telling us that you entering a legal agreement to buy a domain means nothing to you, and that it should mean nothing to us, too, and that you think we're idiots because we're actually saying you did something wrong.

and try to defame their character

More rhetorical misdirection; you should enter politics, because when you do something clearly wrong, you try to twist that around to make it look like you're the man and that those who you screwed are actually the ones doing something wrong. Brilliant.
Truth, and defamation of character, are two different things. You signed a contract electronically, you lazily changed your mind when it came time to pay, you were rude and dissed those people who honestly tried to get you to keep your end of the deal, then in a classic political move you try to turn it around and make like a whole bunch of petty delusional idiots are hounding you, when they should really be doing something better with their lives.
Classic. Beautiful.

What a bunch of immature losers.

Classic. Beautiful. The 6th grade math student tells the calculus professors they don't know how to add.

What a prick

Danny Keck, in his own words.

 

[johname]

a) I wouldn't want the sale if the buyer wasn't happy with their purchase.

b) Sedo's contract really just written to protect them (Shocker)

c) The attorney fees eat up more than the cost of all but the most elite domains.

d) Sedo's contract does not support attorney fee protection to you because your not Sedo.

e) If this is a case of the two party's talking through emails and then deciding on the purchase, then the seller didn't do quite good enough job selling the domain names assets. (an answer Danny said is a clue to this, but cant make that conclusion as we don't know the name)

f) If the buyer just found the name on sedo.com and liked it enough to purchase it (never comunicating to the buyer beyond offer price) then its lame of the buyer.

g) This amount of being upset tells me its probably at or close to a regfee name.

h) Its ugly but nice to see both party's present in a thread. Hope you both just move on from this.

 

[biggie]

does that mean there should be no consequences for someone not coming through with purchases on platforms like sedo? do you condone what the buyer did here? as a buyer, i am obligated to fulfill any offers i make should they be accepted no matter if i 'change my mind' or not. the same goes for selling. otherwise the business becomes a joke. once a buy clicks the buy it now button or his offer is accepted, its beyond the changing my mind stage for both buyer and seller.

:talk:

Hi

whatever obligations you decide to fullfill, are up to you as an individual. that establishes your track record.

what another person does is up to them. and that establishes theirs.

all i said was, " i wouldn't try to force someone to buy a name they no longer want"


that's my philosophy about doing business, period.

if a customer changes their mind, for whatever reason, best thing i can do is say "Thanks for your interest" and move on.

not condoning the actions of the buyer, just understanding them.

because until payment has been sent, then the domain hasn't really been sold.

I disagree with you. I think there's a big difference between simply making an offer and entering into a binding agreement. Moreover, I think if the buyer had been nice about it, instead of being insulting, that the OP might have been more likely to let this slide. I can see how this guy got under his skin.

:talk:

i never said anything about a binding agreement and an offer being the same.

i said, "if this is part of your "sop", then i know who's names not to make offers on in the future".


check the difference!

 

[Kate]

Nobody will sue for $500, it's not worth the hassle therefore people just move on.
For 17K, it's different. But you may have to sue somebody abroad, then enforcing the ruling is another matter. But if the deadbeat doesn't have the money, it's like trying to squeeze blood out of a stone.

I once sued a deadbeat seller, and didn't reach a satisfactory settlement.

 

[gilescoley]

I agree with the OP, buyers should be accountable if they buy a name. What if I went and bought a house, signed the contract and then changed my mind, do you think the house owner would be happy to just "move on" cmon, get real people, just because its a domain doesnt make any difference..you buy something, you pay for it.

To all the domainers who think its ok, wait until it happens to you....

I would never buy a domain from you !!

I think what you've done here is disgusting, people change there minds all the time ... Instead of moving on you post his name and business, this guy just changed his mind and you couldn't let it go ...


Pretty sad !!!

Syncopy, I hope this happens to you, I can assure you your attitude will change....and dont come on and say you wouldnt, you know damn well you would. In this case it was a few hundred $$, what if it was $20K, would that still be ok for the buyer to back out, just because he had a chnage of heart....if you let people get away with it, they will keep doing it...where is the professionalism and integrity in business these days.


Mr Keck, you have a nerve coming on here, show some class would you and just pay the for the domain you bought, this little thread does a lot more damage to your reputation than that domain price ever will...and then you abuse people on here to ruin your image even more, I wouldn't even buy a hotdog from you!!


There is my bit anyway, take it how you will..

 

[Domainace]

I'm not at all impressed by the buyer here, but many people are overreacting. Deadbeat "buyers" are a fact of life. Comparisons being made here (such as buying a sofa on credit and not paying) are irrelevant here. Nothing has been received by the deadbeat buyer, he simply agreed to buy and then backed out. The seller is out nothing, as far as I can see.

This is not an internet thing either. Many states have 3-day cancellation clause requirements for contracts, for example, allowing a buyer 3 days to change their mind after signing a contract.
Buyers cancel all the time. They're flakes, and the world is filled with flakes. People make idle promises all the time. Any professional seller understands that and moves on. If this were an auction, I might have more sympathy for the seller, because there is a loss in the item not being sold to a serious bidder.

This is business. Get over it. There is no obvious financial loss here to anyone. At this point, I wouldn't want to deal with either the buyer or the seller.

 

[johname]

If Danny is making money at his business he should be very happy to buy this name for $497. If your living month by month off of one couch sale and laying off employees, well...

Danny you changed your mind, but a lot of us know $497 for your perfect dot com name something we would never say no too.

Danny don't think you have to change your site to the new name to get benefits from ownership. (but at some time you should be excited to finally dump that hyphen). Its very good to have this in your pocket and redirect traffic and emails to your present site.

The key here is stick this name in your back pocket because its worth it to you as long as your moving furniture into customers hands.

Goodluck guys.

 

[discobull]

You are right. I could have done a better job of handling this deal. I have had numerous non-paying buyers and bidders of Sedo sales in the past, and like a lot of domainers, just brushed it off as a part of doing business on their marketplace, though I was seething inside.

With this lost sale, I decided to take a different approach, and maybe it was not the best approach. I will try to be more considerate should I have to email a "deadbeat buyer" again. That I can improve. I just want to make it clear that it was not my harsh or rude emails that turned him into a non-paying buyer.

I believe it is not too late to make this right. Mr. Keck, my goal is not to hurt you. I do not know you. My purpose for selling domains is to get paid, not to hurt you. You can make this right. Honor your commitment and buy the domain, or contact me if you need to make some other arrangements. Let's resolve our differences and get back to the business of making money. Thank you.

I realize that your email was not what turned him into a non-paying buyer, but I think it might have stood in the way of your possibly working something out with him and getting the sale. I also think, based on what you wrote at the end of this post, that you're still not coming at this in the most effective way. You're approaching this like a collection agent trying to collect on a done deal, when you should be thinking about this like a salesman trying to put the finishing touches on a deal that hasn't yet been closed. Doing the latter means thinking about what to say to make him WANT to do business with you. The first step towards achieving that goal is to drop any mention of "obligations", or "commitments", or "contracts", because these are words that will make him more likely to want to avoid you. The only way those words could be effective is if he takes seriously the possibility that there are legal ramifications for not paying which is not very likely unless you're local to him or the amount is sizable.

I mentioned in another post one approach I took towards closing a deal under similar circumstances, but there are other ways to attack this. For example, I might have sent him an email along the following lines:

"Dear Mr Keck,

My name is ___ and I am the owner of the domain CarolinaDiscountFurniture.com. Sedo gave me your contact information because you had previously made on offer to buy my domain. Now that I know you own Carolina-DiscountFurniture,com, I understand your interest, Clearly my domain is a great fit for your business, so I'm wondering what prevented us from completing the transaction and what adjustments we could make to help you move forward with this purchase.

Sincerely,

____

PS As I'm not sure Sedo provided me with the best email address for you, I will follow up with a phone call in a couple of days in the event I don't hear from you." [ The point of this PS is to discourage him from simply ignoring your letter ]


The goal of this email is to find out why he backed out. Once you know the reason, you'll be in a better position to overcome the problem. Most likely it will be an issue of money ( even if he tells you it's something else ). Bear in mind that since you're no longer going through Sedo, you don't have to pay a commission which means you can drop the price by 10 to 15 percent and still come out in the same place. You may decide it makes sense to drop the price even further if it seems like that will make the difference or you might offer him the option of making 2 or more payments over a couple of months. Ask questions, gather information, and figure out how to turn the situation into a win-win for the both of you. Above all, drop the attitude that he owes you money ( even if it's true ) because that will get you nowhere.

Hope this helps.

 

[Kenny]

Name and shame on every available media and move on.


You will feel better.

^^Exactly^^

The sale is dead and stinkin', bury it already.
Relist it.

Dont get me wrong... I think what happened totally sux for you, but this thread isnt going to start a grassroots movement against sedo/dannyk48/deadbeats in general.

Nobody here is taking the buyers side, we understand how emotional it gets, it's just that some already know from prior experience that you are just burning up mojo that could be used in some other, positive endeavor.

Check out the posts from Bannen, FX, wot, Havela... all big shooters with impressive sales records.
NP is a place to learn... Think about it.

Peace,
Cy

 

[Name Trader]

So we have a deadbeat buyer and a deadbeat seller in this thread who won't follow up with his initial threats to take the buyer to the small claims court. This is a remedy which is open to the seller but he appears to be refusing to activate. But which he threatened the buyer with, on page 1 of this thread. So, although the seller has my sympathy in his protestations, he loses them because he won't follow through with the one thing he threatened the seller he would do. They're both deadbeats, imho.

 

[Ms Domainer]

*

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect buyers to follow through on their commitments/contracts.

If after reasonable attempts to remind the buyer and they still don't honor their contracts, then it's reasonable to pursue the matter in court or, if unfeasible, name and shame online--albeit in a professional manner.

Just the facts, no emotional sideshow.

It does surprise me that so many of you on this thread are blaming the victim and not the perp and are so willing to give the wrongdoer the benefit of the doubt, even when the evidence seems to indicate that he's a total jerk who has thumbed his nose at OP and even mocked him.

Scratching my head in disbelief.

*

 

[Apex Domains]

No, he just didn't 'change his mind'.
Everybody has the right to change their mind, but not when you enter a legally binding transaction.

Even after you have entered a legally binding transaction, you can still technically change your mind - nobody can take away your free will. However, you will most likely have to face legal ramifications as a result of breaking the contract. Law is law; rules are rules.

We must realize that Mr. Keck is not a domainer - therefore, there is no reason to publicize his info and proclaim him as a dead-beat buyer for the entire world to know. If we created a single thread that displayed personal information belonging to all individuals/businesses who have not honored their contract(s), including VERBAL contracts, there would be no end to it.

What you are doing would have been acceptable if you were trying to protect other domainers within the domain community from him, which is not the case here. Mr. Keck does not buy domains for a living. I hope that most people would not care that Mr. Keck did not honor his contract with you. That information is only for Mr. Keck, you, and other involved legal authorities to know about.

Although you want to:

make everyone's job of selling domains easier, because buyers will know there is real risk involved in committing to buying domains and not paying for them beyond the legal route, which most non-payers laugh at, because it is so costly and inconvenient to actually sue someone. Naming and shaming can be done

There is no real risk involved in committing to buying domains and not paying for them beyond the legal route. Do you want to really show non-paying buyers that there is real risk involved? Then the legal route is the only way to enforce ground rules for this kind of behavior and to set a precedent.
As DU put it nicely,

The remedy for this is through the legal process. You're following the rules of the worlds oldest copout - that two wrongs somehow might make a right.

What you are doing is wrong. If you are unwilling to pursue this matter in court because of costs, forget about this and move on. You could have already sold this domain with the amount of time and energy you've devoted to this debate.

In my eyes, I see you as a individual who is willing to sabotage a buyer's identity and business for $497. Conversely, you could say that the buyer is the one who is sabotaging his identity and business because he chooses to dishonor his contract. If you side with the latter, ask yourself this: whose decision was it to publicize this issue instead of just moving on?

 

[Neophyte]

Come on, K.... defenders! Read this! This is from his own website, under the tab "Return Policies." I just want to make sure you can find it, before some moron comes on here saying that I am lying on him or misquoting or slandering him. And this is NOT personal information. I quote:

"Refund, Returns and Cancellation Policies: Cancellations can be accepted within 72 hours of your original order date.

Damaged merchandise should be noted on bill of lading and refused. Said merchandise will be returned for repair or replacement at the sole disgression of the manufacturer and re-shipped at no additional cost to customer.

If you simply do not like your furniture or did not measure and it won't fit and would like to return it, the customer is responsible for original shipping charges, as well as return shipping charges, and a 30% restocking fee."

"Cancellations can be accepted within 72 hours of your original order date."

So Mr. xxxxx knows that cancellations within a 3 day window are an acceptable time frame in which to cancel, because it is one of his own business policies. So why did it take weeks for this Sedo transaction to be cancelled; while xxxxx said that Sedo was sending him 2-3 emails a day and he was being harassed by them? Why didn't xxxx just call or email Sedo to cancel? If he had followed his own rules and cancelled within 3 days, then I would NOT have made this an issue. I have already stated why I started this thread, so go back to Page 1 if you need to. These are not the words of some poor individual who knows nothing about contracts.

 

[Neophyte]

Man, there are some weird arguments made by both sides in this thread:



You make it sound as if it is an excuse that he is not a domainer. The issue here is whether Keck understood that he broke a legally binding contract. Even if he has never purchased a domain before, he has certainly made online purchases before, so he knows that clicking "buy now" carries with it financial commitment. That he has such knowledge is further evidenced by his own return policies.

I agree that "deadbeat" is not an optimal term. The correct term is non-paying buyer (NPB), which is a well-known problem on eBay, where they have particular mechanisms for dealing with such buyers.



Actually there is already such a thread about domainers sending unsolicited emails, which has several times stepped over the line in publicising personal information. I tried to speak out against that practice last year, and as far as I can recall, not one person agreed with me. So why all the moral outrage now? And before you start arguing that sending unsolicited emails is much worse than not honouring contracts: 1) several of the people named in that thread did not appear to be spammers but just newbies or similar, 2) on the merits I would argue that breaking a contract is worse, because it has (potential) financial ramifications. I also believe the justice system would agree with me.

Having said that, I support that personal information should not be published. But what about business info (i.e. let's pretend no personal info was ever published in this thread)? Do people think it is wrong to publish the name of the responsible business and its personal director too?



This is simply not correct. When the buyer clicks "buy now", the product is sold. This act places a number of obligations on both parties, inter alia the seller is legally prevented from selling non-generic commodities to someone else. However, what you say may have consequences for the award of damages, because if the commodity has not changed hands, it may be argued that the seller has not suffered a loss, which is a condition for damages.



This is completely off the mark, and I have defended you so far. Are you saying that in order to be entitled to criticize your practices, people should have to pay you money?

As far as I can tell this thread is about:
1) whether it is wrong and/or should have negative consequences to break a purchase agreement.
2) whether publicizing information about an NPB is justified as such a consequence.

These are questions that are relevant to many people on NamePros, and you need to accept difference of opinion. After all, you invited the discussion by starting this thread.

Interesting thread, though :imho:

Just to clarify: I am not after anyone's money. I only want the buyer's money. You've read the postings. I don't have a problem accepting a difference of opinion. But most of what has been presented have been distortions of the truth or utter lies, not a legitimate difference of opinion. Their opinions should stand on their own merits. If they have to embellish it (...you are blackmailing him) or (you posted most of his personal information and then went back and deleted it), when no personal information was posted, then their points are invalid and they should be called on it.

Now as far as the money thing goes, I know that they are not going to pay for the domain on his behalf, nor do I expect them to. I said that to bottom-line it..for the shock value. If they support him that much and want to protect him from me attacking his business, then they can buy the domain. My point was yeah...they may be concerned, but not that concerned. They certainly can support him with their dollars; even buy some furniture, they are not going to do that. Talk is cheap and criticizing me is cheap. That is the point I am making. Hope this helps.

---------- Post added at 09:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

Update: Mr. Keck and I are communicating, and I hope we can resolve our differences or agree to disagree. I will keep you posted.

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

Mr. Keck and I have reached an agreement, and he made a partial payment on the domain name. He will pay the remaining balance over time. Therefore, Mr, Keck is NOT a deadbeat buyer and I now consider the issue resolved.

To the mods/admin...since the issue is resolved, please feel free to modify/remove this thread as you see fit.

Thank you to those who replied, and to Namepros for allowing me to have a voice in this matter!

 

[adamjonatha]

I don't think that going legal would be wiser as you would have to spend alot of money for that.

In my sugesstion if you spend some time you can show his black deeds iin social media and on his Facebook / Linkedin / Twitter profiles etc so that his friends and customers read about it and he will feel ashamed.

May be he would come back to you to buy it also

I have tried this 3-4 times and it worked twice

 

[Bannen]

As long as international, cross-border litigations remain a mixed up hodgepodge of red tape, I can't see anyone ever receiving a reasonable solution to actually getting paid by a non-paying buyer.

But people are very worried about their rep; possibly the way to go is for dn trading sites like Sedo to create a deadbeat/warning area. When a buyer doesn't pay, they can receive a final warning that if they do not at least come to some fair resolution and explanation about the discarded transaction, their name/ip/account will be permanently banned and their user name and personal name will be listed on the 'deadbeat buyers' page for all other Sedo members to see...
...although Sedo must keep peoples' personal info secure, they can easily change their TOS to include a caveat that is something like 'However, any member who makes a binding offer on a domain, does not pay for it and does not give a satisfactory reason or resolution for this, may have their personal name published publicly on our 'non-paying buyers' page.

It's not a huge step, but it's an added deterrent... anything that openly embarrasses the buyer, and ruins their rep, might contribute to them being more careful when hitting the 'accept' button when they make you an offer.

We can't expect Sedo and other trade sites to take any legal action on our behalf... but they can at least brainstorm some tactics to make it much more painful for someone to become a deadbeat buyer, rather than giving deadbeats a slap on the wrist or even doing nothing, as seems to be their policy right now.

 

[Ronald Regging]

Offer and Acceptance does a contract make! I've had deadbeats on Sedo, never even got their info. Sedo never offered it and I never knew to ask. I sure was pissed though.

Aside from taking him to court, not much you can do... Maybe show up at his store, get a sofa on credit and never pay? LOL!

 

[GiftedDomains]

Some people just don't realise that they cause damage to sellers when they back out of legally binding contracts. (and yes, when this Danny keck dude did bid at sedo, he signed a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT and accepted the terms and conditions at sedo).

Its the same with some of these ebay deadbeat buyers. They think its just a game and they can click whereever they want like they are playing an online browser game.

As a seller, you have to pay ebay the fees. You lose the opportunity to sell to others since often times the second or third highest bidder change their mind when you offer them the item later. You have to relist the item. You lose time because of all the reminders and emails, etc. etc...