debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

oldtimer · Aug 23, 2019

This is a total catastrophe and failure for the World and humanity at large. There are some things that surpass national boundaries and borders like Human Rights and certain Environmental issues that affect the whole Globe which surely should be of concern to all of us. Whether it’s the Oceans and Rivers that have been polluted or whether it’s our air and soil that have been poisoned, it all has something to do with human activity like the Global Warming and the Melting of the Ice Caps and Glaciers which is going to put many coastal Cities and Communities under water soon. IMO

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

Blitzpotz · Dec 15, 2019

oldtimer said:
the incremental steps that they are taking now is not adequate enough to keep up with the acceleration that we are seeing with the Climate Change, so what worries me is that this Planet might go past the point of no return

Very well said. I share your sorrow. As long as short-time economic advantages and securing political power by manipulating less educated masses are successful there will be no change to the better. Mankind must and will go past the point of no return to understand and to act.

Last week the European Union has agreed to a strategy to be climate neutral until 2050. This may be too late especially if other nations do not even think about measures. As a side note Poland is the only EU nation with acceptance of a 2080 neutrality goal. 60 years from now! The really bad thing is they want to burn their coal as long as possible. Coal is on top of the global warming reason hitlist. It does not just spread CO2 but also quicksilver which pollutes drinking water after all.

oldtimer · Dec 16, 2019

Some interesting info

Sustainable Development Goals:

https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/sustainable-development-goals/

COP25 ended with lack of agreement to increase climate ambition:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/12/1053561

COP25: UN climate change conference, 5 things you need to know:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/12/1052251

Deliver ‘significant results now’, UN General Assembly President tells COP25 climate conference:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/12/1053141

UN News for Climate:

https://news.un.org/en/search/climate

In all honesty some of these UN programs seem to have been designed as if things weren't in such distressed and dire conditions and that they had all the time in the World to have many more conferences to talk and make speeches about the Environment. Under normal conditions these programs might have been considered to be okay for maintaining the Environment, but under the current circumstances the UN needs to realize the urgency of the situation and rise to the challenge and come up with some programs that are going to produce results in 5 years not 50 years.

IMO

Cal2 · Dec 16, 2019

dna said:
Actually...what she said is that if people don't follow our extreme demands...we will put them against the wall and shoot them. Any country that uses the phrase "put them against the wall" knows that it means to execute the people who are put against the wall. Even people in Sweden know that.

J Sokol · Jan 4, 2020

Wishing a Happy New Year to all friends of the planet. Let's hope for great strides in 2020 ... but sadly, the title of this thread now applies to Australia.

oldtimer · Jan 4, 2020

J Sokol said:
Wishing a Happy New Year to all friends of the planet. Let's hope for great strides in 2020 ... but sadly, the title of this thread now applies to Australia.

It seems like everything is increasing in intensity as far as floods, fires, droughts, storms, and hurricanes and looks like this is going to be the new norm that we have to live with from now on.

At this time we can only pray for those who are taking the brunt of all these natural disasters and deep in our thoughts think about if there was something that could have been done in the past 50 years that would have prevented the situations that we are facing today.

Happy New Year to everyone, lets hope that in this new year people can overcome all the disagreements and animosities that has brought everything to a stalemate and work together to come up with a solution for all the problems that Humanity and this Planet are facing before it gets to be too late.

PS: I might have to cut down on my participation in the forum since I am facing some health issues arising from my ongoing disabilities and coronary heart problem, but I am glad that I was able to be part of a movement that has created a little more awareness about saving Humanity and our Home Planet.

IMO

J Sokol · Jan 4, 2020

Sorry to hear about your health troubles @oldtimer -- I hope you'll continue to contribute when you're able.

As for our future as a planet, I feel only moderately hopeful. On the one hand, new technologies are being developed and applied all the time and new policies are being implemented around the world to address the problems. On the other hand, oil companies are still drilling and are now focusing on producing MORE plastic, since demand for gas has declined. Amazon is blanketing the world with warehouses and delivery trucks for customers who expect instant delivery. In my mid-western city, most people seem to be going about their lives, oblivious to impending disaster.

It will be interesting to look back a year from now and see what political and cultural changes have taken place with regard to climate change. Let's hope it shifts in a positive direction.

oldtimer · Jan 17, 2020

Just saw the report about the over one million seabirds that have died not long ago due to the abnormally high temperatures in the oceans. Add that to all the animals that have perished in Australia recently and that are facing starvation and extinction elsewhere around the World and it's beginning to become more and more clearer that urgent action needs to be taken today as such that is going to have a big impact in solving these problems before we reach the point of no return.

It might be easy for some to ignore the millions of animals that have perished or that are in distress, but today it's animals tomorrow it's going to be people that are going to get caught in the horrible effects of rampant climate change. Starvation, mass migrations, local and global conflicts and Wars are what is awaiting us if we look the other way to what is happening to the wildlife today.

PS: just registered the domain ClimateFairy.com , maybe Climate Fairy will save us because I don't see any meaningful and effective actions being taken by people beyond just giving lengthy speeches at the conferences.

IMO

J Sokol · Jan 29, 2020

Greta Thunberg has applied for a trademark for her Fridays For Future name - https://fridaysforfuture.org.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nberg-files-application-to-trademark-her-name

BrandEntrance.com · Mar 21, 2020

J Sokol said:
Greta Thunberg has applied for a trademark for her Fridays For Future name - https://fridaysforfuture.org.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nberg-files-application-to-trademark-her-name

She is as ligit as a 7 dollar note.

BrandEntrance.com · Mar 21, 2020

J Sokol said:
For a 16-year-old, she has an amazing capacity to cut through the B.S.

"While thanking the council for the 'huge honour', she said the 'climate movement does not need any more awards'." She noted that Sweden is living "as if it had about four planets."

Well her and her family are and continue to do so.

Here's a word she should learn "Hypocrite".

BrandEntrance.com · Mar 21, 2020

GILSAN said:
THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE... Why do some American Food companies sell healthier options to other countries but keep the unhealthier options for their own people?...

These differences between US and UK ingredients are disturbing...
While some may not realize, it is also no secret that ingredients used in American food products are significantly worse than ingredients found in any other country.

Companies like Kraft-Heinz, Kellogg’s, PepsiCo, and Quaker all sell safer products overseas, while injecting food in America with gross ingredients, packing them full with high fructose corn syrup and chemicals. These differences are found in all types of foods — chips, cereal, candy and even oatmeal. Oatmeal! The one thing that is supposed to be healthy. It is inescapable.

To break it down, Food Babe took it upon themselves to list six American products whose ingredients look completely different in other countries.

https://ronproject.com/ingredients-...ly1zw2s5kLwkvjvUZ0iSFtdOBfZ31bokZW96ABD_GFrqA

Here's just one of many examples:

They don't. They get exposed for putting poison in the food and then they are ordered to change.

People are generally healthier in Europe. I haven't eaten at a McD's for years. It's crap. Same for Burger King and all the others. Make a sandwich. Eat an avocado and some coctail tomatoes.

I have taken my kids to McDs but only for a Milkshake, ice cream and me having a coffee. That's it.

My BMI is 27.8. Working on that but it's not that bad.

oldtimer · Mar 21, 2020

Unfortunately with the pandemic going around some of the attention has been taken away from the Environment, but at the same time because of the slow down and in some cases the shut down of some very highly polluting factories in places like China the air quality has improved by a noticeable degree.

As to Greta, we are all human and no one is perfect, we can't judge her one way or another, but she has created a certain amount of awareness about the Environmental issues and as such we should give her some credit for that. If we were to assign a percentage to her contribution to this cause I would say that she has been at least 75% effective in making some real and positive impact on the World's population especially on the younger generations that are of her own age. The other 25% that might be driven by politics or personal agendas and interests (hers or her handler's) is perhaps something that we have to accept as her being human like everyone else and there is not much that can be done about that until humanity as a whole ascends to a higher level of thinking and existence that is based on logic and compassion.

IMO

J Sokol · Apr 7, 2020

oldtimer said:
Unfortunately with the pandemic going around some of the attention has been taken away from the Environment, but at the same time because of the slow down and in some cases the shut down of some very highly polluting factories in places like China the air quality has improved by a noticeable degree.

Fortunately, there are some silver linings to the pandemic. Cleaner air is one and a drop in car accident rates is another. Maybe we will all rethink our lifestyles a bit after the storm has passed.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-pan...e3a8db-9a58-4285-9ab4-8147e495794e_popular4-1

oldtimer · Sep 12, 2020

As the fires on the West Coast are raging out of control it seems to me that the only solution to prevent these catastrophes from happening again and again in the future is to redesign the whole landscape of that region in order to eliminate the dry underbrush and vegetation that fuel these fires. Also to cut some of the trees down to make sure that there is adequate spacing between them in the denser areas.

This might sound like an impossible task to accomplish, but there doesn't seem to be any other choices now that the effects of the Climate Change are becoming more and more noticeable in our everyday lives.

IMO

Cannuck · Sep 12, 2020

The Amazon is and has been intentionally been cut down and burned over the last 50 years, mainly to provide grazing land for cattle. During the last five years the Brazilian beef industry has been the largest exporter of beef globally and one of the biggest producers of beef in general, one in every five pounds of beef originates from there.

As for the West Coast, the large scale fires were inevitable. Fire is a natural occurance. It has been the forest service practise to minimize fires, thereby allowing the forests to grow unattended for the past century, only now to become a full-on tinder box. Hot, dry summers (partly due to Global Warming) has led to dying trees. Overpopulation in fire prone areas, carelessness and/or arson increases the likelyhood of fires. Expect every summer to be worse than the last as the population continues to grow and the summers get hotter and drier.

Bob Hawkes · Sep 12, 2020

Thoughts with all of those impacted by the fires.

While forest fires are a natural occurrence, and have always been with us even prior to modern times, it is also true that climate change has made the situation worse in many parts of the world. It is unfortunate that the world, that effectively worked together across national borders when the ozone layer was threatened, has not found similar universal cooperation for climate change.

Air quality here on the west coast of Canada is really bad, and looks like will continue to be so for a number of days. Sometimes the true toll off poor air quality is overlooked because it is spread over such a large area. People die, not just directly in the fires.

Bob

Cal2 · Sep 12, 2020

oldtimer said:
As the fires on the West Coast are raging out of control it seems to me that the only solution to prevent these catastrophes from happening again and again in the future is to redesign the whole landscape of that region in order to eliminate the dry underbrush and vegetation that fuel these fires. Also to cut some of the trees down to make sure that there is adequate spacing between them in the denser areas.

This might sound like an impossible task to accomplish, but there doesn't seem to be any other choices now that the effects of the Climate Change are becoming more and more noticeable in our everyday lives.

IMO

Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it. One place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Serious-Crea...50&sprefix=serious+creativity,aps,215&sr=8-2\

I'd join in with you on it, but already have projects that aren't getting finished as well as they should be.

Cannuck · Sep 12, 2020

Cal2 said:
Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it. One place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Serious-Creativity-creative-pressure-action-ebook/dp/B00RKX0QBS/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3DK7G08B545MJ&dchild=1&keywords=serious+creativity+-+edward+de+bono&qid=1599930150&sprefix=serious+creativity,aps,215&sr=8-2\

I'd join in with you on it, but already have projects that aren't getting finished as well as they should be.

There are other solutions, but alot of it has to do with the mindset of forest management vs protection.

A good example is Finnish silviculture: https://forest.fi/article/silviculture/

Cal2 · Sep 12, 2020

Cannuck said:
There are other solutions, but alot of it has to do with the mindset of forest management vs protection.

A good example is Finnish silviculture: https://forest.fi/article/silviculture/

One 'serious creativity' method is called 'designing ways forward while leaving a problem in place'. Whether that could be effective in this instance...

As for dealing with forest mindsets:
I was once dealing with a gov't forestry management official on forestry problem issues - in this instance it had to do with Dutch Elm Disease - and I brought up about concepts and started discussing how a change in concepts could bring about new solution ideas. His eyes started glazing over so I said "Concepts can also make you look good". I had his attention again. : )

Cannuck · Sep 12, 2020

Neglect is a problem, apathy another...action is required following proven science, and Finland is the global leader in that respect:

In Europe, Finland is a "forest giant", there being over sixteen times more forest per capita than in European countries on average. Finland's forests have been intensively harvested over the last few decades. Despite the loss of land after the last wars, its forest reserves are now greater than ever before in the 20th century, and they are continuing to grow.

Finland's forests are probably the most intensively studied in Europe. Since the beginning of the 1920s, they and especially the wood resources that they contain have been inventoried and monitored in a great variety of ways. The inventory system now in use incorporates about a hundred variables, which relate not only to the volume and composition of wood resources, but also to such matters as soil, vegetation cover and the health of trees. Few non-experts taking a stroll in a Finnish forest are very likely to realize that the ecosystem surrounding them is the subject of such precise monitoring and statistical recording.

http://www.borealforest.org/world/world_finland.htm

oldtimer · Sep 12, 2020

Cal2 said:
Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it.

On the contrary, I also made the same suggestions earlier in this thread about a year ago or so, but they went unheeded.

Although in the long run reversing and controlling the Climate Change and the Environmental damage is the real solution to all the extreme conditions that we are now experiencing as far as larger fires and more severe storms and floodings, but in the short term the only viable and practical solution in my opinion is to organize a large scale effort consisting of volunteers, the unemployed who are currently looking for jobs, and the existing emergency respondents and the Environmental management and Park and Forest services personnel to totally and permanently redesign the landscape in order to eliminate the fuel that makes these fires grow to be so big.

I know that this will be a very difficult task to accomplish, but the other option will be to just watch as these fires become stronger and stronger every year and cause more and more damage and loss of life for these regions.

The same is true for the low lying areas that are going to go under water in the near future. We need to start moving people from those regions right now, because even if everyone agreed and accepted to do something about the rising oceans it will take several decades to undo all the damage that has been done to this Planet provided that we haven't already past the point of no return.

As much as I hate to say it, but because of the lack of timely and decisive action on the part of all sides in the past 50 years, we now have to accept a new normal for the World in so many different aspects that may not be what we all wanted.

IMO

Cal2 · Sep 12, 2020

oldtimer said:
On the contrary, I also made the same suggestions earlier in this thread about a year ago or so, but they went unheeded.

Although in the long run reversing and controlling the Climate Change and the Environmental damage is the real solution to all the extreme conditions that we are now experiencing as far as larger fires and more severe storms and floodings, but in the short term the only viable and practical solution in my opinion is to organize a large scale effort consisting of volunteers, the unemployed who are currently looking for jobs, and the existing emergency respondents and the Environmental management and Park and Forest services personnel to totally and permanently redesign the landscape in order to eliminate the fuel that makes these fires grow to be so big.

I know that this will be a very difficult task to accomplish, but the other option will be to just watch as these fires become stronger and stronger every year and cause more and more damage and loss of life for these regions.

The same is true for the low lying areas that are going to go under water in the near future. We need to start moving people from those regions right now, because even if everyone agreed and accepted to do something about the rising oceans it will take several decades to undo all the damage that has been done to this Planet provided that we haven't already past the point of no return.

As much as I hate to say it, but because of the lack of timely and decisive action on the part of all sides in the past 50 years, we now have to accept a new normal for the World in so many different aspects that may not be what we all wanted.

IMO

As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

oldtimer · Sep 12, 2020

Cal2 said:
As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

As usual you are trying to put others down instead of providing alternative options and solutions,

We need to come up with some immediate options for the millions of people who are facing the negative effects of the Climate Change and the Environmental damage around the World today while we are still trying to implement some long term solutions to these problems.

IMO

Cannuck · Sep 12, 2020

Cal2 said:
As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

Whose educational system are you talking about? The US? I guess that might explain some of the problem, but as a university lecturer back in the 80's (Environmental Science), I advocated for change with respect to Global Warming, I met alot of resistance then and even to this day, some 40 years later, people still haven't changed their ways. Personally, in my lifetime, I have planted the seeds of knowledge and over 100 000 trees, what have you done?

Cannuck · Sep 13, 2020

Maybe if kids got off their ass, Iphones and lessened their gaming addictions, and did something for the environment (instead of dissing Greta) they might (and I say that loosely) have a chance to change the world for the better. IMHO

debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

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